Science and Religion: Good Bedfellows?

[theoriginalavatar]

So what do you think?

I am a scientist at heart. No matter what I do in life, I look at it through the tinted lense of scientific inquiry.

What, in your mind, does science do to faith? Are they by nature mutually exclusive? Do they have to be?

I have always loved a quote by Henry Eyring (the father) about this:

Is there any conflict between science and religion? There is no conflict in the mind of God, but often there is conflict in the minds of men.

What are your thoughts?

This world in which we live is pulchritudinous in its very essence. Our pursuit of its understanding is, in my (never to be humble) opinion, the noblest of things with which we can occupy our minds as well as our endeavors.

[bytebear]

Pure truth is where perfect scientific truth meets a perfect knowledge of God. We are no where near either of them at this point.

[ConnieM]

Science and Religion... that is always a very interesting topic. I've once found a great quote by Orson Pratt, in the Journal of Discurses Vol 20:

JD 20:73 - p.74 - p.75, Orson Pratt, August 25, 1878

The Prophet Joseph Smith revealed to us that all the materials of our globe and all the materials of the universe, are eternal in their nature, that their substance is eternal, not created out of nothing, according to the vagaries and foolish ideas of the religious world. The Lord told us that he created the earth out of materials that previously existed; he told us that these materials were eternal in their nature, and of everlasting duration. In what condition have these material been for the last, say millions of ages - for instance, as many millions of years as there are sands upon the sea shore? Have they been lying dormant without any control of law? Were there no electric principles or laws to govern them, was there no heat connected with them, or was there no latent principle called light, neither a gravitation power in connection with these materials? I have no doubt in my own mind but what there have been laws from all eternity - or if you do not wish to call them laws, call them forces, call them powers, call them by any name which may suit you - that have controlled these materials; and then again these laws or forces have also been under the control of a wise, supreme intelligence from all eternity to the present time. How many organizations the materials of our earth have undergone before they were organized according to the revelations given to Moses, are not revealed. How many worlds they had entered into prior to that time; how many conditions existed through the millions of ages of past duration are nowhere revealed. A great many learned men are beginning to see that the materials of our globe have been in existence, as they say, for millions of ages. Some of them have made calculations in regard to how many millions of years since such and such phenomena took place, in regard to certain materials of which our earth is composed; and because they have discovered some of these things, they have, in the weakness and foolishness of their minds, began to doubt the Mosaic history, concerning the creation. I presume if I had never heard of the Book of Mormon, or Doctrine and Covenants, or the revelations of which I am speaking, I suppose I should have been probably an infidel, so far as regards the religious sects; I could not have believed them, if I had suffered my mind to reflect. But when I come to learn and understand that God has nowhere spoken in all the revelations that he has given, that he ever made so much as one particle of this earth out of nothing; and when I found that God has never hinted or revealed any such thing; but, on the contrary, that he organized the world out of pre-existent materials that were eternal in their nature, then I could reflect back with our learned philosophers and suffer my mind to go back just as far as they dare to go in their theories, and then go back to all eternity beyond that which they go, and say, these materials were in organization, and say worlds were being organized, and different conditions were taking place, and laws were being given for all these vast ages of the past, and still reconcile it with the revelations God has given in these latter times. Science and true religion never can possibly contradict each other. There never was any truth in science that would contradict any principle of revelation that God ever revealed to man. Why? Because true science is founded upon a true understanding of the laws and forces of nature. But who ordained from time to time these laws of nature in connection with the universe as we now behold them? It was the Lord whom we serve, the great Supreme Ruler of the universe, who organizes and disorganizes according to his own will and pleasure. He garnishes the heavens in his wisdom and builds the vast superstructure of the universe, as a very handy work. He brings into life and being new worlds and disorganizes them, scattering the elements, and again brings them together by his power or by the laws he has ordained, and by his laws makes new creations, new worlds, and one universe, and inhabits them with myriads and myriads of intelligent beings? This is the work of the great Supreme Ruler of all things.

Yes, it is a long quotation, but I love it! What do you think about it?

[theoriginalavatar]

Yes, it is a long quotation, but I love it! What do you think about it?

I think this is a wonderful quote. Thank you for sharing it, I had never seen it before.

The Prophet Joseph Smith revealed to us that all the materials of our globe and all the materials of the universe, are eternal in their nature, that their substance is eternal, not created out of nothing, according to the vagaries and foolish ideas of the religious world.

This is so very important...and a huge point of variance between believers in LDS doctrine and that of other Christian belief systems. The doctrine of creatio ex nihilo is often firmly supported by any other than Mormons. This in and of itself would make for an interesting conversation. Of course it has been discussed ad infinitum and may bore some people to tears LOL.

A great many learned men are beginning to see that the materials of our globe have been in existence, as they say, for millions of ages. Some of them have made calculations in regard to how many millions of years since such and such phenomena took place, in regard to certain materials of which our earth is composed; and because they have discovered some of these things, they have, in the weakness and foolishness of their minds, began to doubt the Mosaic history, concerning the creation.

This is very heavy. I haven't a doubt that the idea not only of physical evolution but also that of the earth's age have been hashed and rehashed on this site. It drives some people to distraction, but I have always found it to be a fascinating discussion. I do not think that the doctrine of the Creation has to be at odds with scientific finding.

Science and true religion never can possibly contradict each other. There never was any truth in science that would contradict any principle of revelation that God ever revealed to man. Why? Because true science is founded upon a true understanding of the laws and forces of nature. But who ordained from time to time these laws of nature in connection with the universe as we now behold them? It was the Lord whom we serve, the great Supreme Ruler of the universe, who organizes and disorganizes according to his own will and pleasure. He garnishes the heavens in his wisdom and builds the vast superstructure of the universe, as a very handy work. He brings into life and being new worlds and disorganizes them, scattering the elements, and again brings them together by his power or by the laws he has ordained, and by his laws makes new creations, new worlds, and one universe, and inhabits them with myriads and myriads of intelligent beings? This is the work of the great Supreme Ruler of all things.

Very well said. I am deeply religious, but I am also deeply skeptical by nature. If you search for that word in the dictionary, you will no doubt find a picture of me next to the entry. I think that I probably stretch the limits of God's patience for me. I say that in jest, of course, but there is truth to the level of my questioning. I always need everything proven to me. This isn't the way we are told to go about our inquiries into faith and things of God, but this is how I am nevertheless. I expect things from God, just as he expects things from me. I do not believe he acts outside the bounds of natural law.

Edited January 9, 2010 by theoriginalavatar

[theoriginalavatar]

If any of you are familiar with the show Bones, I am a LOT like Dr. Brennan, only religious LOL. I know that is seemingly contradictory if you are familiar with her character, but I often have that level of skepticism as well as that level of scientific thinking....although I do believe in God. I have always been religious, but I have not always been spiritual.

Until I could come to terms with the seemingly contradictory nature of science and faith, I could not fully accept my place within the corpus of religious living.

I have found that happy place.

[Elgama]

I am not a scientist but at university level have studied Archaeology, Astronomy, Geology, Particle Physics, Chemistry and some Biology - due to an illness I have forgotten much of it but still have my impressions I formed from that time. I love DNA, where did you get your picture from? I've been wanting a painting for my wall.

For me Faith and Science frequently inform each other, the more I study science the more I realise we have very few definitive answers, and I appreciate the iron rod and the definitive answers faith can give me. I appreciate being able to ask Heavenly Father - How did you do that? and receiving answers that say actually thats almost right but not quite

I think its fine for there to be contradiction both with science and religion and within our religion and peoples understanding itself. We are mortal, the universe is not, its like trying to watch Avatar without the 3D specs... I know when I did the physics side of my degree courses, the professors first thing was to tell those that had studied it at school to be prepared for it to contradict, when I did my history degree I know many 'facts' even dates I had been taught at high school were wrong or theories - we were taught at high school what our stage in learning was able to understand, and its fine for that understanding to change later. Its not the facts or anything have changed but what we are able to comprehend has

Edited January 9, 2010 by Elgama

[theoriginalavatar]

I love DNA, where did you get your picture from? I've been wanting a painting for my wall.

Thank you, I like it very much as well. I did a Google image search, not for DNA, but for the spelled out deoxyribonucleic acid. It was several pages in I believe.

For me Faith and Science frequently inform each other, the more I study science the more I realise we have very few definitive answers, and I appreciate the iron rod and the definitive answers faith can give me.

This is true for me as well. It is fascinating how science moves forward, unapologetically, coming up with theories and then revising or discarding them. Something that is "proven" scientific fact and seems at odds with our doctrine is later revised by scientists. When it is revised, it is interesting to note how the new belief is more in line with what God has revealed to us through his prophets.

I appreciate being able to ask Heavenly Father - How did you do that? and receiving answers that say actually thats almost right but not quite.

Hmmm....at the risk of sounding completely loony....well, I suppose it is far too late for me in that regard LOL...I ask God about EVERYTHING. I ask even the very smallest of things. I once asked God about telomerase sequencing. I know, I know....just a little off my rocker. I have a firm belief that God will answer my questions because he has said he would answer those who ask in sincerity. He has promised and he cannot break his promises because he would then cease to be God.

[hordak]

Science and Faith are polar opposites.

Faith is : firm belief in something for which there is no proof.

Science is : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method.

That does not mean Science and Religion are mutually exclusive. Even Faith and Science can coexist as a hypothesis is faith. But they themselves are night and day.

[RipplecutBuddha]

I like what you said Hordak. It displays the true situation that we find ourselves in.

With science, we are trying to discover truth from our own efforts, and through our own senses...both of which are easily fooled at times.

With religion, we are told eternal truths that we cannot prove, yet can be demonstrated to the faithful, that have very real effects upon our lives.

Neither can be known for certain, but for essentially the same reason; our wisdom and capacity for knowledge in this life is very limited. Indeed, a great deal of faith is needed to accept many current scientific theories and hypothesis.

As was stated earlier, whenever there is conflict, it resides completely within the realm of our own perception of truth, not within reality itself.

What I look forward to is the day we realize more unity between science and religion. It may take a while, but I'm exited for it nonetheless.

[theoriginalavatar]

Science and Faith are polar opposites.

Faith is : firm belief in something for which there is no proof.

Science is : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method.

That does not mean Science and Religion are mutually exclusive. Even Faith and Science can coexist as a hypothesis is faith. But they themselves are night and day.

I see what you are saying as far as a definitional response. I contend that God is the author of that knowledge. I believe that science can flesh out more than general truths or laws, but that this comes from God and not through the random musings and testings alone on the part of the scientists.

[Moksha]

Science helps expand the boundaries of religion.

[theoriginalavatar]

Science helps expand the boundaries of religion.

That is a very interesting statement. Would you care to expand your thoughts a bit?

[mrmarklin]

So what do you think?

I am a scientist at heart. No matter what I do in life, I look at it through the tinted lense of scientific inquiry.

What, in your mind, does science do to faith? Are they by nature mutually exclusive? Do they have to be?

I have always loved a quote by Henry Eyring (the father) about this:

What are your thoughts?

This world in which we live is pulchritudinous in its very essence. Our pursuit of its understanding is, in my (never to be humble) opinion, the noblest of things with which we can occupy our minds as well as our endeavors.

It is axoimatic to the LDS that there is no conflict between science and our faith. The Lord is the Great Scientist.

[RipplecutBuddha]

I try to think of it this way...

Through revelation, the Lord is trying to tell us what is really going on, and what it's really about.

Through science, we can get a glimpse at the nuts and bolts of how he's getting it done.

[JudoMinja]

My personal take on this is pretty much in line with what others have already said. I will add though-

I believe that faith and science actually work in pretty much the same way. The difference is in the proof we receive. With faith, we seek proof through personal revelation given by the Holy Ghost. With science, we seek proof in things physical- what we can see and touch. These are revelations of truth given to our spirit (the Holy Ghost) and given to our bodies (seeing and touching).

I think when we put both of these truth seeking processes to their ultimate use we will find the most fulfillment.

Also, I believe that science is limited, whereas faith is not. As we need physical evidence in science, proof simply cannot go beyond things physical. It needs to be measurable in the scope of our senses, time, and space. Our scientific knowledge is limited to our dimension (I have some knowledge and understanding of the study of various dimensions but not much and would welcome more input from someone with more study on this matter). Scripture refers to things occuring on seperate planes and that the Lord works on the highest plane. These could easily be various overlapping dimensions, and in the dimension of God all things are possible.

[Melissa569]

Science doesn't do anything to my faith. I too love science, but the more I learn about it, the more it proves to me that something FAR beyond anything humans will ever be able to control, is out there running the big show.

Now some people say "What about the rest of the universe? Isn't that a lot of wasted mass and space, if Earth is the only planet with life, or that matters? What if we find life on other planets? Does that mean our religions are false?"

Well, I believe it was Jesus himself who said in John 14:2 -- "In my Father's house are many mansions"

A lot of people believe this has a hidden meaning; that our world is not the only one with life. But Jesus couldn't very well go into detail on something like that with the people back then. They had no concept whatsoever of how the universe really worked, so even if he tried to explain it, it wouldn't make sense. In a way, I do feel sorry for Jesus... Him talking to himans, particularly those who existed back then, was almost like trying to explain to a newborn baby what college is like.

How lonely god must be-- the only being in existance with his abilities, his knowledge, etc. Nobody to REALLY connect with or talk to on his level... Being God probably feels like being the only human in a world full of ants. Sure there are angles around him, but he is greater than them, even still. No one else is his equal. That's a blessing, and a curse, all in itself.

Life on other planets really is not so far-fetched. We humans aren't even the only life on earth! How can we possibly think we are the only life in the whole universe?? So what if science and other worlds exist? God had to use something to create all this, didn't he? There's no doubt in my mind he has some extremely advance scientific knowledge and talents.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Melissa569

[ConnieM]

This is very heavy. I haven't a doubt that the idea not only of physical evolution but also that of the earth's age have been hashed and rehashed on this site. It drives some people to distraction, but I have always found it to be a fascinating discussion. I do not think that the doctrine of the Creation has to be at odds with scientific finding.

Physical evolution and the earth's age are highly interesting topics! I have no clue if there are any threads around discussing these... did you know that in the German Bible there are some verses referring to evolution?

[ADoyle90815]

I don't think that science is anti-religion at all, as our brains were wired for religion. Scientific laws are also God's laws just like every law in the Bible. By thinking, humans are using the brain as it was designed, to ask questions about the physical world, and through science, seek answers to those questions. Spiritual questions aren't answered through science, which is where philosophy and religion come in.

[talisyn]

Hmmm....at the risk of sounding completely loony....well, I suppose it is far too late for me in that regard LOL...I ask God about EVERYTHING. I ask even the very smallest of things. I once asked God about telomerase sequencing. I know, I know....just a little off my rocker. I have a firm belief that God will answer my questions because he has said he would answer those who ask in sincerity. He has promised and he cannot break his promises because he would then cease to be God.

I see nothing wrong with asking God about anything that concerns you, from finding car keys (yes I've done it and found them ) to being able to find that last little piece of knowledge needed to finish sequencing blue whale DNA (haven't done that yet ).

Through revelation, the Lord is trying to tell us what is really going on, and what it's really about.

Through science, we can get a glimpse at the nuts and bolts of how he's getting it done.

Very nice, I like it.

I don't see how one can be a scientist and not believe in the power of a Higher Deity.

[Moksha]

That is a very interesting statement. Would you care to expand your thoughts a bit?

The Catholic Church once took the position that Earth occupied the center of the Universe till Galileo came around and offered proof to the contrary. After enough centuries went by the Church eventually conceeded that Galileo was right.

The same process is happening with the work of Charles Darwin. It was denied, but eventually the same concession process will occur. Thus science expands the boundaries of religion. The Vatican recently had a group looking into the theological implications of life on other planets. We LDS are way ahead of that, in that our theological speculations have involved there being life on other planets since the early days of our Church.

Science expands the boundaries of the Church and the Church enriches science.

[ozzy]

I personally love science and try to incorporate as much of it as possible into religion. I think religion is who and why and science is how and when. I think that God is the ultimate scientist. When I consider the doctrines of the scriptures and the prophets, I find few if any disagreeing subjects. Fascinating if you ask me.

[Melissa569]

Well said! :)

I personally love science and try to incorporate as much of it as possible into religion. I think religion is who and why and science is how and when. I think that God is the ultimate scientist. When I consider the doctrines of the scriptures and the prophets, I find few if any disagreeing subjects. Fascinating if you ask me.

[theoriginalavatar]

did you know that in the German Bible there are some verses referring to evolution?

\

I was not aware of that. That is interesting!

[ConnieM]

There are some verses for example in Weisheit 19: 18ff

18 Die Elemente verändern sich untereinander, wie auf einer Harfe die Töne den Rhythmus ändern und doch den gleichen Klang behalten. Dies lässt sich aus der Betrachtung der Geschehnisse deutlich erkennen.

19 Landtiere verwandelten sich in Wassertiere und schwimmende Tiere stiegen ans Land.

20 Das Feuer steigerte im Wasser die ihm eigene Kraft und das Wasser vergaß seine löschende Wirkung.

21 Flammen verzehrten nicht das Fleisch der hinfälligen Tiere, die hineingerieten, noch schmolz im Feuer die eisartige, leicht schmelzende himmlische Speise.

It says that elements are changing and this can be observed. There were animals who lived on land and then were transformed into animals of the sea. Swimming animals went out of the water to live on dry land. Fire was not put out by water nor did it kill animals.

Sorry, my translation is not really well done but it sums up the important things here.

[theoriginalavatar]

Sorry, my translation is not really well done but it sums up the important things here.

Ich lerne schon acht jahre Deutsch im Schule aber mein Deutsch ist nicht sehr gut!