Atonement: Literal or Allegorical?


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Job, the story where God give Satan power over jobs life, allows Satan to torturer and destroy his world to win a bet. I think killing Jobs kids is not what a all loving God would do.

So yes it is a "neat" story in my book.

Sooooo when the Lord told Joseph in Liberty Jail, "thou art not yet as Job" - was that just Him being silly?

I don't doubt for a moment that the Lord has a sense of humor, but I don't believe FOR AN INSTANT he would trivialize the suffering and concerns of Joseph Smith by telling him he hadn't yet achieved the same status as an imaginary character.

Maybe he should've just used Santa or the Easter Bunny...

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Alright. My two-cents:

1) I have seen a talking donkey. Ok. Not a donkey, but a cow, a cat and a dog. On America's Funniest Home Videos. When I see it I always think, "See? SEE??? It IS possible!" And we have it on tape to prove it.

2) (All Book of Bruce here, so don't stone me): I believe Jesus paid the price for (a) sin; aka "The Atonement." Having said that, I don't believe it's necessary for him (based on my limited understanding of justice) to have to have paid for EVERY sin. I think there's room to say he paid the price for A sin (or ALL sins, either way works), and he still has a valid claim to the Father. "I didn't deserve to pay for (a) sin, yet I did. Therefore, I invoke mercy on that sinner over there." The Father's hands are tied at that point whether he paid for A sin or ALL sins. Therefore, to me, there's room for the Atonement to be both allegorical (or at least exaggerated) and literal. Hope that made sense.

You know what they say (regarding two-cents worth)... you get whatcha pay for.

Later,

BDR

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Alright. My two-cents:

1) I have seen a talking donkey. Ok. Not a donkey, but a cow, a cat and a dog. On America's Funniest Home Videos. When I see it I always think, "See? SEE??? It IS possible!" And we have it on tape to prove it.

2) (All Book of Bruce here, so don't stone me): I believe Jesus paid the price for (a) sin; aka "The Atonement." Having said that, I don't believe it's necessary for him (based on my limited understanding of justice) to have to have paid for EVERY sin. I think there's room to say he paid the price for A sin (or ALL sins, either way works), and he still has a valid claim to the Father. "I didn't deserve to pay for (a) sin, yet I did. Therefore, I invoke mercy on that sinner over there." The Father's hands are tied at that point whether he paid for A sin or ALL sins. Therefore, to me, there's room for the Atonement to be both allegorical (or at least exaggerated) and literal. Hope that made sense.

You know what they say (regarding two-cents worth)... you get whatcha pay for.

Later,

BDR

But if Jesus Christ suffered an infinite atonement (and we know he did) then how could it stop with a few specific sins? He has already paid the dept for all of us as required by justice (which is an infinite and eternal law that even God cannot go against) so He can now say to God, "No, they repented and were faithful, I paid the price for the mistakes they made". (see the scripture below, D&C 19:16)

Yes, there are members of the church who do not believe God required a blood atonement or blood sacrifice. I am one and I know of others in the online community.

I think there are many layers to the meaning of Christ and Godhood and all the stories surrounding them. And they mean different things to us at different times in our lives.

I believe God is better than us. He doesn't kill or require killing. Humans do.

Part of the evolution of humanity took us from human sacrifice to animal sacrifice to the sacrifice of Jesus which allowed us to evolve beyond blood sacrifice.

Humans evolve. Maybe God does to. Or he is the same yesterday, today and forever which leads me to believe he never did want blood.

I have a much easier time accepting the blood atonement of Christ with him as my Father. It makes more sense to me that way. I can relate that to how a mother goes through the valley of the shadow of death to bring us into this physical world. The symbolism is beautiful, in a way.

I cannot believe that God the Father asked us all to condemn to death our Godly brother in order for us to live with him again. Shouldn't I want to spare my beloved brother from pain and suffering caused by me? No greater love is there than to lay down your life for a friend. Shouldn't I have that kind of love?

Christ redeems us through life not blood. Think about it. He who bathes in Christ's blood will be left with his blood on their hands. How can blood ever make us clean?

Christ teaches us how to conquer death. I love the symbolism of baptism where we die to sin and are spiritually born. We take up the cross and take up the name of Christ.

Anyway, I could go on and on. The symbolism is rich and glorious and where I find meaning.

In Doctrine and Covenants 19:16-18 Jesus Christ says, "For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for ALL, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit-and would that I might not drink the bitter cup and shrink-nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men."

We ALL commit sin at some point in our lives and justice MUST be fulfilled as a consequence. Those who do not repent, accept Jesus Christ and strive continually to improve must suffer for their own sins after this life and only then will be worthy to enter the Telestial Kingdom. Those who repent and accept Jesus as their savior will inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom and those who repent, accept Jesus Christ and make and keep sacred covenants (baptism, temple and temple marriage) will receive a place in the Celestial Kingdom.

To anyone who believes that Jesus Christ's atonement was fictional and merely a story: If Jesus Christ did not actually suffer for our sins then why does He claim such in the above passage of scripture? The quoted verses are not words of a prophet or any other man, they are the words of Jesus Christ HIMSELF spoken directly to His servant Joseph Smith. Saying that Jesus Christ's suffering is strictly allegorical and is just a story for us to learn from is to deny the greatest miracle that has ever occurred. It is to deny the Plan of Salvation which God created. This plan stated that man should fall, experience mortality and that a Savior would be provided for us so that we would able to return to live with God. If a savior were not needed there must have been no fall; if there was no fall Adam and Eve would have remained in the garden of Eden and none of us would be here today. The atonement of Christ is in no way fictional and I cannot remain still while members of the true church of God go about believing such things.

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God does not require blood to forgive us. If God could make His own rules on how man is to be saved, then He would not have sent His Son to suffer, bleed, and die. This is the greatest evidence we have that God is a glorified, exalted, and perfected Man, and is following laws and did not create these laws for His own benefit, or ours.

A blood atonement was necessary because, by his own choice, man was seaprated from God by a blood fall. That blood had to be presented clean and pure... purged from all stain. Christ needed to reverse the effects of the fall in His own body so that He could overcome the fall, and then He would gain the power to pass it on to all who met His criteria. So, He shed His blood.

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Sooooo when the Lord told Joseph in Liberty Jail, "thou art not yet as Job" - was that just Him being silly?

I don't doubt for a moment that the Lord has a sense of humor, but I don't believe FOR AN INSTANT he would trivialize the suffering and concerns of Joseph Smith by telling him he hadn't yet achieved the same status as an imaginary character.

Maybe he should've just used Santa or the Easter Bunny...

He is also mentioned by who many experts say is the brother of the Savior:

James 5:

11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

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I have a much easier time accepting the blood atonement of Christ with him as my Father. It makes more sense to me that way. I can relate that to how a mother goes through the valley of the shadow of death to bring us into this physical world. The symbolism is beautiful, in a way.

Remember, Jehovah volunteered.

And, also remember that the Father already had a glorified, perfected body of flesh and bones and could not die. It was impossible for Him to atone for the sins of His offspring. It required a mortal sacrifice, and He did what He needed to do to bring about the possible salvation of His children... the only way it was possible.

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Well, we cannot say that ALL the stories in the bible are just metaphors.. Archeologists have found tons of physical proof that many of those events actually occured. Cities have been dug up in the locations the bible mentioned, and there was evidence that they were distroyed in the same manor the bible described. Not to mention, the historical records of other coutnries, telling very similar stories, or "the other guy's version" of stories seen in the bible, suggesting that these cultures really did live through these situations, and have these quarrels with each other.

There is just too much evidence pointing to the fact that at least most of the stories in the bible really happened.

But as for things like talking pigs, pilars of fire, god and angels appearing to people... Well, religion is designed to where there has to be a certain amount of faith involved, and god will always see to it that this is the way. Its important to god that we CHOOSE weather to believe in him or not, and you can't choose weather to believe in something that has been scientifically proven to exist.

On that note, I find it quite sad that scientists simply tell us "the Earth travels around the sun, and the sun is multi-thousands of times bigger than the earth", and we just believe it without question, even though none of us average people have the equipment to prove something that incredible from the ground.

Or we will readily believe the extremely censored, re-written and filtered news stories we see without question.

Yet we are so quick to jump up and yell "I won't believe in god, until you PROVE that he is real!"

Why is that?

I'll tell you why: Because believing in god, and the stories in the bible, causes us to have to reconsider the way we live our lives, and most people are terrified of doing so.

Much has been said in the forums lately about stories in the Bible being literal, or actual history, verses just stories used to teach principles and not actual events.

Many say the creation is just allegorical and not to be taken literal. There really weren't "days," and God really wasn't "speaking," and when He said "us" He only used it for context.

Many say the Fall is just allegorical and not to be taken literally. There really weren't actual trees with fruit, and Adam and Eve really didn't get kicked from a physical location.

The same applies to the global flood, the talking donkey, the virgin birth, and even to many miracles the Bible claims.

OK. Fair enough.

What about the Atonement of Christ?

Here is the most pivotal event that defines Christianity. Here the Son of God born of a mortal mother intercedes and atones for and in behalf of all who are born on earth. If any story in the Bible is outlandish, hard to swallow, and has very little if any evidence, this is it.

Did the Son of God REALLY atone for the sins of mankind? Was Jesus of Nazareth really crucified?

Allegory or real event?

Yes, I am trying to relate what we KNOW happened to some of the lesser important things. For instance, if we know the atonement happened, then we know the fall happened. If we know the fall happened, then we know the creation happened. If we know the creation happened (that God spoke and demonstrated power over the elements) then what else in the Bible may have been real?

I'm giving those who believe the Bible is strictly allegorical to voice their opinion based on this, the most important event in the Bible, and where the line may be drawn between reality and fiction.

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I find it quite sad that scientists simply tell us "the Earth travels around the sun, and the sun is multi-thousands of times bigger than the earth", and we just believe it without question, even though none of us average people have the equipment to prove something that incredible from the ground.

Yet we are so quick to jump up and yell "I won't believe in god, until you PROVE that he is real!"

That is SOOOO true! We hardly ever have qualms about what mortal scientists with a very limited knowledge tell us concerning astronomy, history and physical laws, but when God, with His infinite and perfect knowledge causes a small creature to speak we say, "What!? A talking donkey? Thats impossible!"

Why does it have to be so impossible? This is God we're talking about. We just need to think for one second about how incredible our physical bodies are. Think of the complexity it takes to get everything to work as well as it does. Just look at your hands and think of the power and knowledge it would take to create YOU. Look at the stars and imagine the power it would take to organize all things that are. Look at the Earth, the universe and your body and tell then tell me that the same God that created all these things could not make a donkey talk.

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Remember, Jehovah volunteered.

And, also remember that the Father already had a glorified, perfected body of flesh and bones and could not die. It was impossible for Him to atone for the sins of His offspring. It required a mortal sacrifice, and He did what He needed to do to bring about the possible salvation of His children... the only way it was possible.

Jehovah...Eternal Father. See it all gets very messy in the scriptures. I could point out many scripture to support that Jehovah is God the Eternal Father.

Jehovah had the power to lay his life down and raise it up again. That doesn't sound mortal to me. If he was mere mortal it would have been a human sacrifice. It is reported as NOT being a human sacrifice in Alma.

If Jesus Christ was God/Jehovah before he came to earth then he was also an exalted being.

Where did the atonement happen? In the garden or on the cross?

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I like the episode of "Joan Of Arcadia" I saw a while back (the one where a modern teenage girl talks to and sees god, in the forms of many different kinds of people, at random throughout the day:

God appeared to her in the form of a boy her age. She doubted him, and asked him to prove to her that god and miracles existed.

He turned and pointed to a tree.

Joan said, "That's just a tree."

God said, "Let's see YOU make one."

Edited by Melissa569
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I like the episode of "Joan Of Arcadia" I saw a while back (the one where a modern teenage girl talks to and sees god, in the forms of many different kinds of people, at random throughout the day:

God appeared to her in the form of a boy her age, and she asked him to prove to her that god and miracles existed.

He turned and pointed to a tree. Joan said,

"That's just a tree."

God said,

"Let's see YOU make one."

HAHAHA! :lol: Love it! I can make a baby. THAT is the biggest proof of miracles there is. Ahhh, to see a baby born. To me it's the regular stuff that IS the miracle.

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Jehovah...Eternal Father. See it all gets very messy in the scriptures. I could point out many scripture to support that Jehovah is God the Eternal Father.

Jehovah had the power to lay his life down and raise it up again. That doesn't sound mortal to me. If he was mere mortal it would have been a human sacrifice. It is reported as NOT being a human sacrifice in Alma.

If Jesus Christ was God/Jehovah before he came to earth then he was also an exalted being.

Where did the atonement happen? In the garden or on the cross?

In Hebrew the name Jehovah means "I Am". He is the creator of the Earth under the direction of God the Father, Eloheim. Jehovah is the God of the Old Testament and had reached an exalted state in the pre-existence. At this time He was still a spirit like the rest of us and needed to receive a body just as we all did.

Jesus Christ came to Earth and gained a mortal body (one that could die, which He did) and as such He was no more immortal than we are. While Eloheim is the father of our spirits (being the creator of them), Jesus Christ is our spiritual father as he is the reason we can be forgiven and spiritually born again.

The atonement began in the garden of Gethsemane (where the Savior most likely endured the most pain) and continued through his trial, scourging and crucification.

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In Hebrew the name Jehovah means "I Am". He is the creator of the Earth under the direction of God the Father, Eloheim. Jehovah is the God of the Old Testament and had reached an exalted state in the pre-existence. At this time He was still a spirit like the rest of us and needed to receive a body just as we all did.

Jesus Christ came to Earth and gained a mortal body (one that could die, which He did) and as such He was no more immortal than we are. While Eloheim is the father of our spirits (being the creator of them), Jesus Christ is our spiritual father as he is the reason we can be forgiven and spiritually born again.

The atonement began in the garden of Gethsemane (where the Savior most likely endured the most pain) and continued through his trial, scourging and crucification.

So it was a human sacrifice?

Alma 34:10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.

Alma claims it was not a human sacrifice. That mean Jesus was not human. Alma claims that a human cannot spill his blood for the sins of another so does the Law of Moses. So, this being the case, Jesus was either God OR the infinite atonement was not wrought by him....OR???

And if Jesus was God then he would have to have been an exalted being.

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So it was a human sacrifice?

Alma claims it was not a human sacrifice. That mean Jesus was not human. Alma claims that a human cannot spill his blood for the sins of another so does the Law of Moses. So, this being the case, Jesus was either God OR the infinite atonement was not wrought by him....OR???

And if Jesus was God then he would have to have been an exalted being.

I already said that He was an exalted being and that He was the God of the Old Testament. Though He was mortal, you are correct in that He was more than the natural man. As Alma said, an infinite atonement needed to be made and a normal, mortal man could not have survived an infinite amount of pain. By definition, to be immortal one cannot die. It is not possible for God to ever die so He is immortal. Jesus Christ could die, and therefore was not immortal, but at the same time, being a literal son of God in the flesh He had the ability to suffer infinitely before He finally died. Once He was resurrected and the atonement was complete He became immortal as He could no longer die ever again.

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...The atonement of Christ is in no way fictional and I cannot remain still while members of the true church of God go about believing such things.

My sentiments exactly. (Only you do it with more tact and less sarcasm than me. :) )

This is God we're talking about... Look at the Earth, the universe and your body and tell then tell me that the same God that created all these things could not make a donkey talk.

In Abraham 3:19, Abraham is taught about the Intelligences, and is told "I am more intelligent than they all." B.H. Roberts suggested that this meant: "more intelligent than they all COMBINED." Admittedly, this is not canonized opinion, but I think it's safe to say he knew a thing or two about the scriptures...

Jehovah...Eternal Father. See it all gets very messy in the scriptures. I could point out many scripture to support that Jehovah is God the Eternal Father.

And there are sects all over this world that can scripturally support saved-by-grace, while others can scripturally support saved-by-works. And we could make a whole list...

Interpreting scripture without the Gift of the Holy Ghost is nothing more than intellectually-anemic hypothesizing. It's pure guesswork, opinion, and circular reasoning. That's precisely why we have so many brands of christianity today...

Where did the atonement happen? In the garden or on the cross?

The atonement began in the garden of Gethsemane (where the Savior most likely endured the most pain) and continued through his trial, scourging and crucification.

I would submit to you that the Atonement began when Christ was born. He could not have qualified for the heavy and fearsome task, had He not lived a perfect, sin-free, exemplary life preceding the Olive Press and cross...
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I already said that He was an exalted being and that He was the God of the Old Testament. Though He was mortal, you are correct in that He was more than the natural man. As Alma said, an infinite atonement needed to be made and a normal, mortal man could not have survived an infinite amount of pain. By definition, to be immortal one cannot die. It is not possible for God to ever die so He is immortal. Jesus Christ could die, and therefore was not immortal, but at the same time, being a literal son of God in the flesh He had the ability to suffer infinitely before He finally died. Once He was resurrected and the atonement was complete He became immortal as He could no longer die ever again.

How was Jesus Christ exalted without a body? Why couldn't we all have been if we are truly brothers/sisters with him? Weren't we all immortal before earth life, by definition?

How did he get a throne and exaltation before his earthly probation?

If God came to this earth then it would be possible for him to die. According to Talmage, Jesus could have lived forever without dying. He had the power to choose to die or not. That would make him NOT mortal IMO. Maybe that makes him half and half by LDS doctrine. But, this doctrine makes it so that Jehovah God HAD to be murdered or commit suicide for the plan to work. That is just not a plan of happiness to me.

I do not want to kill my God or bathe in his blood or torture him. I can't reconcile that with the admonition to love him with all my might, mind and strength.

Anyway, I have a feeling that my thoughts are offensive and so I will end with that.

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Kind of rambling here. If so, I apologize, but I summarize the thoughts OK at the end I think. I wanted to clarify, backpedal, regroup, etc:

But if Jesus Christ suffered an infinite atonement (and we know he did) then how could it stop with a few specific sins?

To answer: You quoted D&C 19. Earlier in the same chapter it says "it is written Eternal... because I am Eternal." This is one way how an infinite atonement could be made for payment for a finite number of sins: because He WAS Infinite, Perfect. And that Infinite Personage paid the price for (a) sin. Mind you, I'm not opposed to Him paying for every sin we commit. And I might (likely) be way wrong about it.

"On the other hand" (Tevye), I also had this thought: If the sands of the sea are numbered to God, so are His children, and each of them is only capable of committing x number of sins. The entire population would only be capable of commiting a finite number of sins anyway. Therefore, "infinite" doesn't necessarily refer to an "unlimited" number of sins. So, I tend to think because He is Infinite, and willingly submitted to the punishment, that qualifies as an infinite atonement, whether there was 1 or many or unlimited sin(s).

He has already paid the debt for all of us as required by justice (which is an infinite and eternal law that even God cannot go against)

I believe you're saying that the payment of the debt for sin is necessary, that it (the payment) is an eternal law, and God (Justice) MUST have payment. I agree. I also agree that Christ has paid for it.

In Doctrine and Covenants 19:16-18 Jesus Christ says, "I, have suffered these things for ALL, that they might not suffer..." ... We ALL commit sin at some point in our lives and justice MUST be fulfilled as a consequence... If Jesus Christ did not actually suffer for our sins then why does He claim such in the above passage of scripture?

I believe the scripture reads: "I have suffered [the payment of/consequences for sin(s)] FOR all [mankind]..." Not: "I have suffered for ALL sins for mankind."

Saying that Jesus Christ's suffering is strictly allegorical... is to deny... The atonement of Christ is in no way fictional and I cannot remain still while members of the true church of God go about believing such things.

I'm not suggesting it's in any way fictional. And, I'm not suggesting it's strictly symbolic. And, I'm not suggesting I'm at all correct, either. I haven't got a clue, I'm just trying to put the pieces together. I didn't articulate myself very well before.

So, in an attempt to conclude: The original question was "Is the Atonment literal or symbolic?"

As a precedent, I use the related concept of "Eternal punishment" as referred to in D&C 19. Which, in my opinion, is literal punishment for a symbolic period of time. We will literally be punished and the punishment is "sore and exquisite." The duration of our punishment is of unknown duration, unknown because it is God's punishment, and God is Eternal. Our punishment is, therefore, "Eternal." Symbolic. "Eternal punishment" is both literal and symbolic.

Similarly, I believe the Atonement was literal payment for sin. Christ literally (and I suppose that's the start of an answer there) suffered "sore punishment" for sin. But the "infinite" nature of the sacrifice/payment is subject to some symbolism. He was Infinite, Perfect and Sinless. Therefore it was an "Infinite" Atonement. Symbolic. So I guess my final answer is, the "Atonement" was both literal and symbolic, depending on which aspect you're referring to: the payment part, or the sins (number of) covered.

My inherent sense of justice says, because He was sinless, there's no justice for him to have to have paid for any (not even one) sin. Therefore, I believe, the very moment He pays for at least one sin, it's patently unfair, and He has the claim on Justice you referred to. I believe He has that claim repeatedly. I also believe that the consequence for "sin" -- whether it be a white lie or a murder is ultimately the same (according to justice) -- a sin is a sin and results in expulsion from God's presence. Payment for the sin is therefore the same, without repentance in operation. However, as I write this, there might be another "on the other hand" here. I'll grant that there might be only one or forty (and four) dozen "types" of sins. And each of them has varying degrees of "stripes" which the unrepentant must receive if they don't accept the payment made for them. Therefore, my inherent sense of justice might demand that payment for "this type of sin" (ie., a white lie) only has one stripe, while "that type of sin" (ie., murder) has a million stripes. As payment, I would expect a million and one stripes be paid. I would allow the million stripes received to pay for multiple murders IF the person who received them was sinless. I hope that makes sense. But "on the other hand"... maybe the elements and all intelligence would not. I guess we'll find out. But, I agree with the scriptures, that once the unrepentant pays, they're reward is less than those who accepted the Atonement and tried their best.

Whew!

BDR

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I already said that He was an exalted being and that He was the God of the Old Testament.

How was Jesus Christ exalted without a body? ... before his earthly probation? ... According to Talmage, Jesus could have lived forever without dying. He had the power to choose to die or not. That would make him NOT mortal IMO. ... But, this doctrine makes it so that Jehovah God HAD to ... commit suicide for the plan to work.

First) He was not exalted in the sense that He/we will be, as children of God the Father, after receiving our bodies.

2nd) He was Jehovah, I AM, the God of Abraham, the creator, Father of us all (due to his role as Savior). Whenever he refers to Himself as Father it's because He's speaking for the Father using Divine Investiture of Authority. I believe. Like a lawyer. He represents God. He was "exalted above his brethren" (see Heb. 1) and earned these privileges due to His righteousness.

3rd) I read someone say (maybe Talmage?) that He would have lived forever ("infinite"), so he was an immortal Being.

But... the doctrine that an Infinite Personage "commited suicide" isn't such a bad thing to me. I see it as another payment for the unfair state in which post-fall man finds himself. "This is my work and my glory: to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." Adam fell. He introduced mortality. We die because Adam made a poor choice. It isn't fair. Christ, an Eternal being, laid down His life and took it up again to conquer that death. BECAUSE He did so, not because He had to, he can lead man to conquer death. It's very merciful and miraculous. And, it seems ultimately fair. We all sin. Unless we accept the Atonement, we suffer. That seems fair to me, too.

Later,

BDR

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