PartII: Is the deck stacked?

[bytor2112]

My friend is a life long member of the church......now inactive for the past at least 15 years. He is definitely apart of the "world" now. Recently divorced after an affair with a 27 year old secretary ( he is 44). So, for about three months he became active and had stopped drinking and committing sexual transgressions and was very close to meeting with the Bishop and doing all that was necessary to clean up his life. (endowed member). But alas....temptation was too strong and he faltered and then fell back into his old ways.....all of them.

The other day we were chatting and he brought up some things and I thought I would share and maybe relay the responses. The inspiration for the thread "Is the deck stacked" stems from this conversation.

In addition to his concerns about the inequity of the life experience between various groups of people he also wonders why:

1. We have to accept Joseph Smith as a prophet in order to return to God, given as he says all of the controversy surrounding him.

2. Why there are so many hurdles in order to return to God. Temple ordinances, etc.

3. Why we accept the Temple ordinances as having come from God and ignoring the obvious connection to Masonry.

4. Why we have to pay tithes in order to go to heaven.

5. Why we have to overlook things that seem so obviously wrong with the Book of Mormon.

6. Why other Christian faiths are so much more accepting and there members seem very happy and certain of there eternal destiny.

7. Why does he need to see a Bishop or SP, which are just men in order to be free from his transgressions.

8. Why so many people cannot believe what the LDS church is offering.

9. Why the rest of the Christian world is absolutely certain that the LDS church is wrong.

10. How we can ignore all derogatory evidence regarding the Book of Abraham.

11. Why so few people alive today will accept the Gospel according to the LDS, much less live it. He referenced how few truly active and faithful members are in the church.

12. Will those who die and then hear the Gospel in Spirit Prison have to also believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and the Book of Mormon is true? If not, how is that fair?

The list could go on.....this is a bit of an extension from the earlier thread I referenced. My thoughts......he is seeking to legitimize the choices he has made and questioning the church is a way of coping with unresolved guilt. Chime in...if you will. Thanks.

[JudoMinja]

Those questions certainly encompass a lot. I'm predicting this thread could end up going all over the place

Anyway, I think I'm going to take a stab at it, but know that answers to these questions probably aren't going to convince your brother of anything. The only thing that can bring about a change in his life is a change in his heart, and that is brought about by the power of the Holy Ghost.

1. We have to accept Joseph Smith as a prophet in order to return to God, given as he says all of the controversy surrounding him.

- The Book of Mormon is the most true book of any book on this earth. It contains many precious truths that were lost during the Dark Ages and have now been restored. The first vision gives us a perfect knowledge of the nature of the godhead. We either believe in this, and thus in Joseph Smith- or Jospeh Smith was either totally insane or an anti-Christ. Joseph Smith brought us the fulness of the gospel and did more for the salvation of man than anyone to walk the earth except Jesus Christ himself. Joseph Smith was and is a prophet of God, and any controversy surrounding him is spun up by workers of darkness to confuse and mislead those seeking the truth.

2. Why there are so many hurdles in order to return to God. Temple ordinances, etc.

- The Lord never said His way would be easy. He only said it would be worth it. There were even more ordinances required of those living in the Old Testament than what is required of us. These ordinances are not hurdles but blessings. We follow in obediance and we are blessed for our efforts.

3. Why we accept the Temple ordinances as having come from God and ignoring the obvious connection to Masonry.

- I don't know much about Masonry, but if I remember right, Masons helped build the first temples of our time and so any connection would be due to the fact that they took it from the temples. There will always be mock-ups of the real thing. These are tools to lead us astray if our minds and hearts are not open to the spirit of truth.

4. Why we have to pay tithes in order to go to heaven.

- Tithing is a way for us to give back to God. God has given us everything. He only wants us to give 10% to the building up of His church, His work. Tithing doesn't just disappear. It supports your church buildings so that you can have supplies and electricity. It builds temples. It sends out copies of the Book of Mormon. It is used to help needy members in your ward. It is a way for you to give of yourself to help others. It is a way to humble yourself and show that you trust that the Lord will take care of you, even when times are hard.

5. Why we have to overlook things that seem so obviously wrong with the Book of Mormon.

- Like what? I haven't noticed anything "obviously wrong" with the Book of Mormon. Have you read over the entire book? Have you planted the seed of faith described by Alma? Have you accepted Moroni's challenge?

6. Why other Christian faiths are so much more accepting and there members seem very happy and certain of there eternal destiny.

- From my experience, I feel much happier and certain of my eternal destiny going to the LDS church. I've been to other churches, and I've never felt the spirit as strongly as I have in the LDS chapels. Perhaps you mean that LDS members are not very accepting of SIN. We are very accepting of people, but yes we are not accepting of sin. Don't you think the Lord works in the same way? And for those members who are not very accepting of people, just remember that nobody is perfect. An unwillingness to cope with their judgmentalness is just a way to be judgmental yourself.

7. Why does he need to see a Bishop or SP, which are just men in order to be free from his transgressions.

- Because these men are in a position of stewardship over you in the church and your sins/transgressions are commited against more than yourself and God. They are also commited against the church. As a baptised and endowed (yes?) member, you agreed to live by the standards of the church. You took upon you the name of Christ and your actions reflect on His church. Also, grevious sins, especially of a sexual nature, are extremely difficult to overcome on your own. Bishop and SP involvement is meant to help you.

8. Why so many people cannot believe what the LDS church is offering.

- Seems to me that there are more people accepting and believing than not. The LDS church is the fastest growing denomination in the world. It is one of the latest formed Christian churches and already it is 4th largest religious affiliation.

9. Why the rest of the Christian world is absolutely certain that the LDS church is wrong.

-Each demoniation has found its own niche of what they believe to be correct. Think of this though. In the other Christian demoniations, there is often disagreements WITHIN their own denomination. Pastors, leaders, etc, each teach in a manner that suits them and people moving to new locations may find themselves no longer in accordance with their demonination upon arrival to their new home. This doesn't happen in the LDS church. It is organized from the top down, and the same doctrines are taught around the globe.

10. How we can ignore all derogatory evidence regarding the Book of Abraham.

-Haven't seen any. Perhaps you are reading anti-Mormon literature.

11. Why so few people alive today will accept the Gospel according to the LDS, much less live it. He referenced how few truly active and faithful members are in the church.

-Since you are inactive and unfaithful, who are you to say how many members are active and faithful? Of course people fall away. The gospel is difficult to follow, especially in these times. Even the strongest and most faithful members will be sorely tried and many will fall away.

12. Will those who die and then hear the Gospel in Spirit Prison have to also believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and the Book of Mormon is true? If not, how is that fair?

-Of course they will. The gospel is most certainly fair. Everyone will be held accountable for their personal level of faithfulness and worthiness.

[bytor2112]

Enjoyed your blog...judominja and thanks for your comments!

[Prodigal_Son]

Matthew 7:14

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

[deseretgov]

1. We have to accept Joseph Smith as a prophet in order to return to God, given as he says all of the controversy surrounding him.

Controversy is irrelevant to hid prophetic calling. The amount of controversy around a person does not determine the truthfulness of their prophetic calling. Joseph Smith was an imperfect man. Even the prophets of the Bible were imperfect men. We shouldn't really conncern ourselves with the problems chosen men have rather we should focus onovercoming our own imperfections.

2. Why there are so many hurdles in order to return to God. Temple ordinances, etc.

The purpose of this gospel is to take imperfect sinful people and process them into more perfect(eventually completely perfect) people. No unclean thing can enter into God's presence. So we must use the gospel and love of Christ to become clean. Ordinances can serve as landmarks. They let us know that we are on the right track. If we are worthy toenter the temple then we know that we are closer to being worthy to enter God's presence.

3. Why we accept the Temple ordinances as having come from God and ignoring the obvious connection to Masonry.

Who said the connection to Masonry is bad? Must they both contradict each other. Couldn't God have used a modified Masonry ceremony as a tool to further His work. After all God uses imperfect men as His tools.

4. Why we have to pay tithes in order to go to heaven.

It is a sacrifice. We must be willing to sacrifice those things we have. Eventually we must give all the we posses to the church and they will give us back what we need in the united Order. The key is to understand that nothingthat we possess is really ours. Everything belongs to God. We are just permitted to use them temporarily.

5. Why we have to overlook things that seem so obviously wrong with the Book of Mormon.

I'm guessing this means anachronisms and things. We dont know everything. If we think we are at the point that we know everything we should just stop all research. Why reject the Bookof Mormon because of a few things we don't understand? Eventually we will have the knowledge and understand it. It's not as if the Bible has any fewer problems.

6. Why other Christian faiths are so much more accepting and there members seem very happy and certain of there eternal destiny.

Being accepting and happy is not something that a church provides. Being accepting and happy is a personal choice regardless of religion.

7. Why does he need to see a Bishop or SP, which are just men in order to be free from his transgressions.

Those men are the people set in administration over certain areas. They too are imperfect and they should be because God has only imperfect tools to use. Christ has set these menin their places and if we reject them then we reject Christ.

8. Why so many people cannot believe what the LDS church is offering.

Not everyone is identical. People have different understandings, experiences, beliefs, etc. The LDS church is not the perfect solution for everyone.

9. Why the rest of the Christian world is absolutely certain that the LDS church is wrong.

You can't expect them to accept it as correct. If they did then they would be admitting they are wrong. If you think you are right about something would you support something that would show that you are wrong?

10. How we can ignore all derogatory evidence regarding the Book of Abraham.

What derogatory evidence?

11. Why so few people alive today will accept the Gospel according to the LDS, much less live it. He referenced how few truly active and faithful members are in the church.

Most people prefer to live the way the feels good. They prefer the easy way out. There is a percentage, about 80% to 20%. 80% of people usually will do lest or just barely what it takes. Only 20% will go above and beyond and do what it truely takes. This applies not only to the gospel but to everything. Most of us just want to skate by and have fun. The number of people in a religion does not determine the truthfulness of that religion.

12. Will those who die and then hear the Gospel in Spirit Prison have to also believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet and the Book of Mormon is true? If not, how is that fair?

It depends onwhich generation they were born in. When christ went to the Spirit Prison and opened the gospel to them they didn't haveto accept the Book of Mormon. They didn't live in the times when Book of Mormon was scripture. Even the people who lived in the americas during Bookof Mormon times wont have to accept it. It wasn't their scriptures.

But then again if a person accepts the gospel then they would be willing to accept any scriptures that are part of that gospel. It would be like having us accept the teachings of the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon. We can't it hasn't been revealed yet. But when the time comes that it is revealed and we are truly followers of Christ then we would accept it.

The Mormon church/doctrine/ is not the final destination of all mankind. Christ was/is not Mormon. Adam, Abraham, Moses, etc were/are not Mormon. It's not the Mormon church that people will be converting toin the Spirit World. They will be converting to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[ryanh]

I have actually thought of your 'deck stacked' post a few times, and was going to look it up this morning to comment. Low and behold I find thread II here.

I can't point to scripture or GC talks, or share some grand experience that would convey what I understand. All I can say is that over the last two months a testimony has been given to me (I say given, as I truly do think of it as a blessing an gift) that all people on this earth are in the situation, and will have the experiences necessary for their opportunity for exaltation. The starving child in Africa, and the billionaire mogul in the US - each has been placed in God's creation with the circumstances, gifts, and opportunities they need to prove themselves herewith.

It doesn't always require a knowledge of the savior to prove ourselves. For some, simply living in various circumstances is sufficient. For others, having the opportunity to hear from Joseph Smith themselves was sufficient and necessary (to prove themselves either way - good and bad). All the varied circumstances are not simply the luck of the draw, or evolutionary chance. There is more design into all of our circumstances than most, if not all, of us can possibly understand.

Edited January 13, 2010 by ryanh
Removed duplicate text

[hordak]

- The Lord never said His way would be easy. He only said it would be worth it.

Actually he did say it would be easy.

28 ¶ Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you crest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

I don't know if this phrase pervades outside the LDS culture like it does within it. It is often embroidered to pictures of Christ. The idea being portrayed is that life is hard, but it will be worth it because of Christ.

That simple idea is fine, but literally speaking, the saying is false, and its reverse is actually what is true: Christ did say it would be easy, but he never said it would be worth it. Think about it. Can you find a scripture where he does? (literally speaking)

Now, of course Christ believed and taught principles consistent with the idea that yes, of course salvation is "worth it". But he also said taking His yoke upon ourselves is easy. Let's not get life (which is hard) confused with following Christ (easy).

And let's think about these catchy phrases before we allow them to permeate our entire culture

[hordak]

The list could go on.....this is a bit of an extension from the earlier thread I referenced. My thoughts......he is seeking to legitimize the choices he has made and questioning the church is a way of coping with unresolved guilt. Chime in...if you will. Thanks.

I wouldn't jump to the assumption that his questions and doubts are a way to legitimize his choices. It's a way to shut down dialog, and therefor ineffective. If you want to help your friend you must understand why.

As someone who has been back and forth i can tell you i wouldn't give up eternal life to break the WoW. I would break the WoW because i didn't believe in it.

So if you would have come at me and said "You left the church so you could sin" i would laugh because you were wrong..

It appears they your friends issues are with the church itself, and not Christianity as a whole so i would answer his questions using NON LDS sources ,because LDS source would be pointless to one who doesn't believe in them.

[ryanh]

Actually he did say it would be easy.

28 ¶ Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you crest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

The ease referred to is not automatically an absolute reference. I would disagree that it is an absolute reference. I believe it is a relative reverence. This was said by the savior in a time when the religious culture tried obtaining salvation through perfection of performance - an impossibility because we all sin from the beginning.

His way is easy as compared to the way of trying to save ourselves through perfection. The burden of redemption and exaltation is extremely heavy. In that way, His way is easy, but in terms of 'ease' it is a difficult path. Hence so may are not able to follow it.

Edited January 13, 2010 by ryanh

[spamlds]

I often use the analogy of the Apollo 13 mission to describe the condition of a brother or sister who has fallen away, like your friend. If you've seen the movie (or if you're old enough to actually remember it like me) the third mission to land on the mood experienced a catastrophic failure.

It began with a small cap that was left on a sensor that was supposed to have been removed before launch. It caused the failure of a part that controlled the thermostat for the oxygen tanks. From the time it was activated, this one little part caused the gradual overheating of the oxygen tanks until it caused a massive explosion.

In our lives, small transgressions begin to lead us away from the Spirit. It clouds our senses and we don't get accurate "feedback" from our spiritual instruments. Perhaps your friend was remiss about saying daily prayers. Maybe he got complacent about studying the scriptures daily. As these personal devotional observances diminished, he would become less likely to do more stringent things, like pay tithing. He might rationalize that, since he couldn't get a temple recommend because of his lack of paying tithing, then there was no point keeping the Word of Wisdom. Eventually, this led to immorality and the breaking of marriage vows and temple covenants.

That's when the "explosion" occurred. On Apollo 13, when that happened, they lost the ability to use their powered instruments. The radio in the Command Module had to be shut down. The venting of gases threw them off course and they came close to what was called "gimbal lock." That meant that the debris, the ice crystals from the venting oxygen, and the disorientation caused them to lose their "platform." The platform was the three-dimensional awareness of where they were in space. Without it, they couldn't navigate home.

Your friend is in this space, without a "platform," drifting into the void. He is questioning the very things that provide that orientation and direction. Pride, panic, discouragement, and other strong negative emotions contribute to that lack of orientation.

It was only through the help of mission control that the astronauts succeeded in returning to earth safely. If they had try to get themselves home without the help of mission control, they would have perished.

Your friend needs to drop all the pretenses and thinking that he can fix this himself. He needs mission control to help. He needs to listen to the directions of those who know and trust them. He needs to take action based on those instructions. He will fail if he listens to the spurious voices of other "experts" who challenge the credibility of mission control.

It is amazing what returning to the fundamentals can do for one's life. Daily prayer and scripture study helps us get our "platform" back. We can know where we are and find our way back to the iron rod.

My heart aches for this good brother who has allowed Satan to overcome him. The Book of Mormon describes his plight so accurately in the context of the iron rod, the tree of life, the great and spacious building, etc.

The simple fact is that, if we are not careful that Satan will lead us away if we let go of the iron rod. The questions your friend asks are all the result of letting go and wandering off into the darkness. From 1 Nephi 8:

19 And I beheld a rod of iron, and it extended along the bank of the river, and led to the tree by which I stood.

20 And I also beheld a strait and narrow path, which came along by the rod of iron, even to the tree by which I stood; and it also led by the head of the fountain, unto a large and spacious field, as if it had been a world.

21 And I saw numberless concourses of people, many of whom were pressing forward, that they might obtain the path which led unto the tree by which I stood.

22 And it came to pass that they did come forth, and commence in the path which led to the tree.

23 And it came to pass that there arose a mist of darkness; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, insomuch that they who had commenced in the path did lose their way, that they wandered off and were lost.

24 And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree.

25 And after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed.

26 And I also cast my eyes round about, and beheld, on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth.

27 And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.

28 And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they dfell away into forbidden paths and were lost.

29 And now I, Nephi, do not speak aall the words of my father.

30 But, to be short in writing, behold, he saw other multitudes pressing forward; and they came and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press their way forward, continually holding fast to the rod of iron, until they came forth and fell down and partook of the fruit of the tree.

31 And he also saw other multitudes feeling their way towards that great and spacious building.

32 And it came to pass that many were drowned in the depths of the fountain; and many were lost from his view, wandering in strange roads.

33 And great was the multitude that did enter into that strange building. And after they did enter into that building they did point the finger of scorn at me and those that were partaking of the fruit also; but we heeded them not.

34 These are the words of my father: For as many as heeded them, had fallen away.

Holding onto the iron rod is the path of safety. Some LDS fancy themselves as "Liahonas" who chart their own path. To me, that's a deception of the Adversary. The iron rod is the sure path. If you never let go of it, you'll arrive at the tree of life. For those who pridefully say that they can navigate their own path by the Spirit, they demonstrate ignorance of the spiritual discernment necessary to hold to the rod.

You don't often see "iron rodders" go off the path. I've seen lots of "liahonas" wander off into the darkness in the past 30 years.

[mnn727]

Rather than answer each individual question. I see his questions as excuses, so I will just make the comments, that Mormons are not trying to reach heaven, we're trying to reach the Celestial Kingdom which implies becoming like God, so the requirments are much higher. I have often thought someone should start "the Church of the Telestial Kingdom" - everyone would qualify.

The 2nd point I'd like to bring up is the old saying "To him that is given more, more is required" When this person was baptised and later when he received his endowment he Covenanted with God to do certain things, sounds like he's not living up to his end of the Covenant.

I once has a discussion like this with the Stake President and he told me that it would be better for a person like this if they had decided to not try to 'come back' to be released from his Covenants (through their resigning membership or through excommunication) than to be held to the Covenants by God when he died. I had never thought of it like that before.

Edited January 14, 2010 by mnn727

[ozzy]

Whether or not He said it would be easy, He never specifically said the words "it will be worth it". But he did say other things that imply this. :)

1. What prophet hasn't had controversy surrounding them? Noah was rejected by all, and yet was still a prophet. We have to accept Joseph period cause if we don't then we don't believe in the restoration and thus negate the need to answer any of the other questions.

2. "Be ye therefore perfect..." Those ordinances are how we do this. Besides, if there is no law, there is no justice. If there is no justice, there is no mercy. If there is no mercy, there is no salvation.

Aside from that, we have to do all of that because God said so.

3. Hmmm, though I can't quote any sources, I am of the belief that the masons picked it all up from the temple ordinances as they were back in the day. This particular argument is akin to asking 'why do we need to have faith since this is what the evangelicals preach?'

4. Again, God said so. Thing is though, when it comes down to the eternities, what do we own? Nothing. It already belongs to God. Technically, we aren't giving him anything since it is already his. He just asked for a bit back.

5. There actually is nothing 'so obviously wrong' with the book of mormon. No argument has been presented that hasn't been refuted. Some may argue that there is no physical proof. While I haven't been myself, I have friends who have been to the ruins and seen them, and they are proof. How else do you explain 2000 random distinct stone statues of young men? others may argue such trivial things as the use of the word 'cement.' This is done under the idea that cement was invented by the Romans. What other English word could replace it in an English book? Others may have issues with the doctrine. Honestly the BoM rarely disagrees with the Bible, but actually disagrees with the current teachings of men which happen to disagree with the Bible. I'm out of the argued imperfections, but if there are any more, I would be happy to offer my 2 cents on it.

6. Its about the whole truth. With only part, sure we would be happier than none of it. But if we have it and reject it or don't follow it, then we are less happy than even those who follow what little they have. Thats why they look so happy to us.

7. Organization of the church. Thats how God wants it to be done. Largely though, I think this is more so that any necessary disciplinary measures can be taken. We don't have to go to the Bishop with every little thing, just the big things.

8. They think they are happy with their part. They are deceived.

9. Same reason that the world thought the prophets were wrong in every time there has been a prophet. It makes them uncomfortable that they may be wrong.

10. What derogatory evidence? I have actually never heard of such evidence.

11. See #8 You might ask why he doesn't live it. He should understand why others don't if he doesn't.

Not to be judgmental, but that's how I see it.

12. Yes they will. It is part of the gospel. So it is fair.

I do agree with Hordak that we must be careful to jump to such conclusions. Personally though, I would be inclined to agree with your assumption that these questions are designed to become justification. It sounds like such an idea as 'I don't think its right to have to do all of this stuff so I won't' is coming along. These questions appear to be a pathway to that statement.

But don't give up. If you are always there for him, then maybe he will remember that God is always there too. It may (will) take time though. All the best.