Family Proclamation controversy


DB37
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To me this issue isn't about decor, it's about not having to hide who you are just to cater to someone else. I don't wear a CTR ring. I'm not a big jewelry wearer. But if I did wear a CTR ring I wouldn't take it off to avoid offending gay people I might meet, such as at my community choir rehearsals I used to go to. It's just the principle of the matter. If she likes the framed family proclamation, she should keep it up. If it's an issue of not liking the way it works, that's a different matter.

I bet a decade ago she wouldn't have thought twice about displaying it. That she is nervous to put it up shows that activists' intimidation tactics are working, but I see why she feels that way. I wouldn't force her into it, but I think it's good for her husband to encourage her to stand up for her rights and her own home.

Last summer some extended relatives came to visit and my mom told them in advance that no unmarried people of the opposite sex would be sharing a bedroom and they were more than welcome to get a hotel if they weren't happy with it. That's not to say that she's fornicator hater, but if it were two gay men coming to stay, I'm sure she would be labeled a homophobe. It is a terrible feeling when people are angry or unhappy with you. I understand that. But if you are an awesome friend to a homosexual and they want to trash that friendship over your religion, that's pretty petty. A friend of mine involved in theater was dumped by her gay friends during the Prop 8 controversy just because they knew she was Mormon.

I think the best thing the OP can do is encourage displaying it with the promise that he will be there to support her and warmly welcome her guests.

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I guess I don't understand how taking down something off your wall because you are afraid it will offend someone is expressing any kind of defense for something you feel is important.

Except that the proclamation was a Christmas gift and hasn't even been displayed yet. It's not like it has been hanging there for years. It sounds to me like the couple hasn't even decided if displaying it is something both of them want to do....independent of what the community thinks.

I understand the need to try not to offend. But in the process of trying not to offend someone coming into your home..you are offending the ONE person who has made everything possible. To me it's like saying "Heavenly Father I truly believe and appreciate the family and it's structure etc etc...but..... That's just the way I see it.

I don't have the proclamation hanging in my home. Am I offending God?

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I don't have the proclamation hanging in my home. Am I offending God?

Oh my heck..that is NOT what I said at all. I don't have it hanging in my home either. Mainly because I don't own it.

The point I was trying to make is: to decide whether or not to hang something you own (in this case the Family Proclamation) and basing that decision strictly on whether it will offend someone coming into your home... is the point I'm getting from this thread. I understand where the OP is coming from. To hang something or not hang something that you own that proclaims one of the most important beliefs we have and that is one of family in your home..should not be be made just because you don't want to offend a guest.

Edited by pam
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it's important to keep in mind how this debate came about. the framed proclamation was given to them. it's not like the husband said one day "you know honey, i'd really like to hang a copy of the proclamation up" and then the fight started. before the gift (as best we know anyway) hanging a copy had not crossed their minds. so yes the feelings of both should be considered. but when it comes to my home's decor i don't hang everything that is given to me. sometimes it's just not me. sometimes i hang things because i know that person may visit and i want them to see i care about their gestures even though it's not "me"... those things get hung where they are less prevalent but will still be seen by that specific person. these are also factors here, this isn't about testimony.

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I am sorry Pam. Let me try the question a different way. If this woman doesn't want to display it and the reason is precisely because it makes her feel like she is craming it down her friends throat, would it be a sign spiritual weakness?

I am trying to argue that I don't necessarily think it would.

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No I don't see it as a sign of spiritual weakness at all. Again, anyone should feel they can hang something like this in their home without feeling they are cramming it down their friends throat or feeling they will offend them. It's their home..they have the right to hang what they want and feel is important to them.

I have pictures of Christ in my home. Would I take all the pictures of Christ down because I have an atheist or a Buddhist or a Muslim coming into my home and I'm afraid it might offend them? No. To me it's the same thing.

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I am sorry Pam. Let me try the question a different way. If this woman doesn't want to display it and the reason is precisely because it makes her feel like she is craming it down her friends throat, would it be a sign spiritual weakness?

I am trying to argue that I don't necessarily think it would.

Miss1/2, sorry, I really don't want to sound like I'm being antagonistic or anything, I hope you don't see it that way...

I want to ask this question to you as a counter - just to expand on your question.

1.) If she did not have a gay friend coming over, would she hang the proclamation on that particular wall? If the answer is yes, then the only thing keeping her from hanging that thing on that wall is her gay friend... and that, I believe, is spiritual weakness.

Our home is not the place to put down pictures that offend somebody else. A state-run public library, yes. Our homes, no.

2.) If she did not want that proclamation on that particular wall regardless of anybody visiting, then no, that's not spiritual weakness. That's just plain preference.

These 2 questions are what the husband needs to discern from the wife. If it is #1 - then he can stand firm on his belief. Very firm, in fact, and it would be okay.

If #2 - then it will require a compromise - I'm guessing the wife will win this one if it's #2, because, usually, the wife's tastes in decor is what gets done in the house. At least it is true in my own home.

Edited by anatess
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1.) If she did not have a gay friend coming over, would she hang the proclamation on that particular wall? If the answer is yes, then the only thing keeping her from hanging that thing on that wall is her gay friend... and that, I believe, is spiritual weakness.

Okay I would have to agree with that when it is explained in that way.

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I am sorry Pam. Let me try the question a different way. If this woman doesn't want to display it and the reason is precisely because it makes her feel like she is craming it down her friends throat, would it be a sign spiritual weakness?

I am trying to argue that I don't necessarily think it would.

I agree. Here is my perspective.

My wife is a new member (since December). My side of the family is predominantly LDS. She is the only member from her side of the family. During the holidays we hosted both my side of the family and her side of the family (at separate times.....our house is big, but not that big.) Anyway, we normally have Ensign magazines prominently displayed in our living room. Bookshelves that are prominent in the living areas of our home have numerous LDS books, i.e., Teachings of....., Truth Restored, Preach My Gospel, Presidents of the Church, etc., etc.. Our scriptures tend to get left wherever we were using them last, dining room, living room, kitchen, bedroom....whatever.

While my wife was investigating, her side of the family questioned her decision to do so.....somewhat. It was never any big deal, but they did raise their eyebrows. It has never been a source of conflict though.

Anyway, while her family visited I asked if she wanted to do things like remove the Ensign magazines, move books to less prominent places, etc., to avoid conflict. It was most certainly not that I was concerned about standing behind my beliefs and the word of God. Rather, I felt that avoiding conflict in the family would lead to harmony at this time of year when it was so important to feel the love of God and celebrate Jesus Christ. I would most certainly not abandon or betray my beliefs, simply try to provide a more comfortable place for our guests. My concept was start with a strong family appreciation and go from there. I also thought it might make my wife feel a little more comfortable in her own home.

I actually have copies of the Book of Mormon in my home, earmarked for members of her family for when I or she feels the time is right. So it's not like I'm resigned to avoiding discussion of the gospel, rather I hope it occurs at any opportunity.

Anyway, after all that thought, we decided to leave things just the way they were. We didn't move anything. Some things intentionally and prominently displayed. It was never an issue. Someone smarter than me once said, and I paraphrase, "We wouldn't care so much what people thought of us if we realized how infrequent that was."

But, what was important to me was to avoid conflict in the home and to ensure that my wife was comfortable in our home. I would never avoid a discussion of the gospel. But sometimes one thing leads to the next.

Wow, that was a long post to say we didn't change anything, but I certainly understand avoiding initial conflict and making people comfortable in your home. I don't think it is denying God. Rather, I think in some cases it can set the conditions for discussion (rather than debate) about the Gospel.

Anyway, my perspective......for what it's worth.

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I think this good husband should go home and tell his sweet wife that he knows she is spiritually awesome no matter what they hang on the walls. And then he should ask if they can decide independent of any study session or guest what they want on their walls and come to a mutually beneficial decision. And then they should kiss for lots of hours.

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I think this good husband should go home and tell his sweet wife that he knows she is spiritually awesome no matter what they hang on the walls. And then he should ask if they can decide independent of any study session or guest what they want on their walls and come to a mutually beneficial decision. And then they should kiss for lots of hours.

AMEN, sister!

Don't forget the chocolates.

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Wow.

This has turned into a marvelous discussion. I'm so grateful to see so many different sides debating this issue with so much civility and respect. The funny thing is that I think some people involved here are getting more vehement about the issue than either myself or my wife have.

Some things worth noting:

We do currently have the Proclamation and the Living Christ both hanging above our Gospel bookshelf--which is in our room.

While we haven't made a final decision yet, things have cooled down significantly (and never really got heated in the first place, for that matter). At this point, we're considering hanging the Proclamation in the front room (it's not a matter of not liking the decor) and her taking it down when her friend comes over. While I disapprove of this--I do view it as giving in to intimidation from this guy--I will respect my wife's wishes if she wants to temporarily remove it and not treat her any differently because of it.

Neither let it be said that my wife is spiritually weak. She holds her torch for all to see and doesn't hide her religion. In this case, she feels that by hiding the Proclamation from her friend, she is being a missionary: while this guy will probably never be willing to convert to any form of Christianity, she wants him to have at least one memory of a Christian--and at that, a Mormon--who did not judge him because of her religious beliefs. (Given that most college students are fairly liberal, she is also worried about the other people in the class being offended, particularly one who is a very close friend of the guy in question). My feeling is that she IS judging him by assuming that he will be offended by something like this. I also very much appreciate the person whose wife said that it would probably be more insulting to him if he found out we were hiding something from him for fear of offending him. I do recognize that my wife knows the situation with this individual better than I do, and I will defer to her on whether or not she wants to remove the Proclamation from the wall. Again, I won't approve or understand (at least in an empathetic sense), but I won't let it drive a wedge between us or treat her any differently because of it.

The inadvertent reaction that I've had in this situation is that while it has caused a brief conflict between my wife and me, most of my annoyance is directed at her friend. I know him only marginally, but used to think he was a nice guy that I would like to get to know better. Now, I'm not so sure that I want to get to know him. Not only did he unknowingly cause our first fight, but I feel like he's already judged me--even though the conflict/event/whatever-you-want-to-call-it in question has not even taken place! This is what strikes me as so strange about our disagreement--my wife doesn't want her friend to feel like we're judging him, yet I feel that by taking it down we are judging him, as well as trying to avoid his judgment.

[On a side note that is only marginally related, this is similar to the way my feelings have evolved about the gay marriage issue. I am from California, but have moved and changed residency and so did not have the opportunity to vote in Prop 8. At the time it was on the ballot, I probably would have voted in favor of gay (civil, of course) marriage. But the gay community's reaction towards and scapegoating of the LDS Church has changed my mind. If it came up today, I would probably vote against gay marriage, or at the very least decline to vote on the issue. How ironic that their protests and slander have not changed one person's mind who was already opposed to gay marriage, yet have turned a number of people who were for gay marriage against it? I know I'm not the only one. At the same time, they brought much publicity to the Church--much negative, to be sure, but the old saying goes "There's no such thing as bad publicity." This is an example of the way things can backfire when groups of people react to things emotionally--they hurt their own cause and help that of their opponent. It also shows that the work will go forward despite persecutions raging, mobs assembling, armies assembling, and calumny defaming.]

Thanks again for all your wonderful commentary. I'd love to see this discussion continue. It is brilliant stuff. Just so you know, while my original intention was to simply consider the advice here and not mention this thread to my wife, I thought the conversation going was too valuable to not share with her. So she's followed at least a portion of what has been said here.

Edited by DB37
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I hope you understand that anything I might have said was not directed at your wife or you personally. It was directed at the situation in general. So I apologize if I might have offended either of you personally. That was not my intent at all.

My intent was to point out how important it is for us to stand up to what we believe in and not let outside influences affect that.

In the end it is a decision for you two to make and one that both of you are comfortable with.

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[On a side note that is only marginally related, this is similar to the way my feelings have evolved about the gay marriage issue. I am from California, but have moved and changed residency and so did not have the opportunity to vote in Prop 8. At the time it was on the ballot, I probably would have voted in favor of gay (civil, of course) marriage. But the gay community's reaction towards and scapegoating of the LDS Church has changed my mind. If it came up today, I would probably vote against gay marriage, or at the very least decline to vote on the issue. How ironic that their protests and slander have not changed one person's mind who was already opposed to gay marriage, yet have turned a number of people who were for gay marriage against it? I know I'm not the only one....]

Me too. I'm 100% in your boat here.

I'd say if this is an indication of how you two work out your differences, you've got a long, healthy marriage ahead of you!:D

Agreed!

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DB out of curiosity do you have other religious artwork/decor in your main room (where the debate of the proclamation was to go)?

to play devil's advocate, if someone has a lifestyle of drinking are they ashamed of who they are if they choose to spend a holiday alcohol free because non drinking family is present?

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I hope you understand that anything I might have said was not directed at your wife or you personally.

Not at all offended by anything here, except for the person who said her hesitance would be a "shiny red flag." That bothered both of us a little bit. I mean, we're already married. We're waaaaay past the point of looking for red flags.

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DB: Can I ask, did this friend actually ASK that you remove the proclaimation to the family?

If not, it seems a little harsh, I guess coming from a gay person, for you to judge him on something he didn't say or didn't request. Could your anger toward him be stemming from your anger toward the gay community in general, over how some reacted to prop 8?

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I completely disagree. I don't think the commandment to bear the name of Christ hinges on whether or not one displays the family proclamation on the wall. What is in your heart is much more important. I hardly think this qualifies as "being bent by the will of men."

How can you determine by the original post if she is lying about who she is? Maybe they have had discussions about it? They have talked about it at least to some extent.

My 2 cents (again). I, like you, would want to hang it on the wall. But the last thing I would want to do is make my wife feel uncomfortable around her classmates. Express this to her. Trust me, your salvation does not depend on hanging this on the wall.

You've succeeded in taking my comments out of text. *pats you on the back and congratulates you*

The act of not displaying a copy of the Fam Proc to the World isnt "failing to take upon themselves the name of Christ" but rather the fact that they would not display it out of FEAR or worry of what someone may say, think, or do.

IMO whenever you decide not to do something based heavily upon what others may or may not do or say then you are as the psalm says, not letting your little light shine. ^_^

Its not the litteral act of hanging a piece of 8x10 parchment on the wall. Its the symbolism. And just so its known I dont even own a Proc to the World. You sort of took my words literally like the guy who thought Jesus meant we'd all have to climb back into our mother's womb to be 'reborn' :)

Edited by Wisc
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Personally, I think this wife's desire to remove the proclaimation from her home while a gay friend is over has less to say about intimidation, and more to say about the loving and compassionate nature of the wife.

I HIGHLY doubt the wife is afraid of offending her friend. I just think she holds his feelings in high regard. To me that is a great, human, and Christ-like quality.

I also have a feeling that if the friend knew this argument was going on, he would comment to her about how silly she was being.

Remember these two individuals are friends, both willing to put another person's well-being above their own.

I find the whole situation very touching... actually.

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Personally, I think this wife's desire to remove the proclaimation from her home while a gay friend is over has less to say about intimidation, and more to say about the loving and compassionate nature of the wife.

I HIGHLY doubt the wife is afraid of offending her friend. I just think she holds his feelings in high regard. To me that is a great, human, and Christ-like quality.

I also have a feeling that if the friend knew this argument was going on, he would comment to her about how silly she was being.

Remember these two individuals are friends, both willing to put another person's well-being above their own.

this is an angle I didnt think of. Very well said.

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phd programs are highly political. it would be wise to hang in the bedroom for the time being and not jeopardize the whole phd thang...

I didn't remember this, thanks for pointing it out. The academic world is sometimes as bad as the US Senate :P

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My wife and I have been married for just over a year, and in the last couple of days we have had our first real fight. I know--we're really lucky. Unfortunately, this fight is about the Family Proclamation, the last thing I thought we'd ever fight about.

Anyway, for Christmas my sister sent us two matching, very nice frames with a Family Proclamation in one and a picture from our wedding in the other.

Now, it should be said that my wife is the real spiritual fortress in our home. She has been faithful all her life, is a returned missionary, and is just generally a better person than me. I, on the other hand, was inactive for six or seven years, breaking commandments left and right, didn't serve a mission, and still struggle with following some commandments. I try hard and I want to do the right things, but I haven't had the strong spiritual manifestations that my wife has had. I am most definitely in the class of people who are mentioned in D&C (42:7? I'm too lazy to look it up), those who are "given to believe on their words," meaning the ones who know for themselves.

Back to the issue at hand: I want to hang up this photo and Family Proc, but my wife is opposed to hanging the Family Proc prominently in our home. She is in a PhD program, and she is taking a film class this semester. Only 6 people are in the class, so in order to make the class more enjoyable/comfortable, they have decided to rotate among classmember's homes to watch the films. One of the members of the class is gay, and my wife has had many conversations about his feelings towards Christians. He feels that Christians are judgmental towards his lifestyle and consequently, he has a very negative view of Christianity. My wife has tried to send the message that Mormons are not like other Christians (which we're not) and that we don't hate gay people (which we don't).

So the bottom line is that she doesn't want to hang up the Family Proc in the front room because she feels like it has very anti-gay undercurrents and that it will offend her friend and possibly other people in the class. My feeling is that she is worrying too much about the issue: First of all, we have a right to believe what we believe and hang what we want in our home. Second of all, the Family Proclamation is not an anti-gay or even an overtly political statement. It is a beautiful document about the Spiritual aspects of the family. Third of all, the way she treats people is what is going to send the message about what we believe, and her friend may not even read the document (although she's sure he will). Fourth of all, I'm not sure I want someone in my home who would judge me or my wife for stating our beliefs and not backing down because of intimidation from someone with an opposing viewpoint.

Where we left the issue last night is that we can hang it, but when these people come to our home she will simply take it down for a few hours. This honestly bothers me more than not hanging it at all. I was reading the scriptures last night before bed, and I came across this one:

Matthew 5:15

Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

I feel like my darling wife is hiding her candlestick. Should I give in one way or another (hang it and take it down, or simply not hang it at all) or should I stand firm, as the eternal family and the sanctity of the family are the most beautiful part of the Gospel for me. It is what drew me back to the Church, and what ultimately encourages me more than anything else to strive to follow the commandments: I don't want to lose my wife and our future kids.

Advice?

Hang it up. In the field of medicine, I am around gays all the time and they fully know my beliefs and I theirs.

If she feels that her "friends" are more important than her belief or your family... then perhaps, she should spend a few days reflecting on who she really is and what she really stands for.

The Divine Institution of Marriage - LDS Newsroom

Elder Oaks Interview Transcript from PBS Documentary - LDS Newsroom

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I feel exactly the same way as your wife about hanging it up. I refuse to do it. It bothers me and I felt from the minute I heard it like it was written specifically to address the whole gay/gender identity issue. Luckily my husand is not uptight about what goes on our walls. He also remembers what he learned in church about relationships and compromising. I think that if you truly want it to live on your walls and your wife feels mortified at the thought of being perceived in a way that is misrepresentative of who she is and she's STILL willing to let you hang it up as long as it goes away when her friends are there, then you should consider yourself a lucky man for having a woman who is flexible and go with the compromise.

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