Missionary Work with Israelis

[volgadon]

Vanhin's Edit:Moved over from the Jewish Perspective on the Book of Mormon commentary forum.

I know the translator, that version isn't very good as it is basically done by dictionary.

and just a general statement to everyone, the church has signed an agreement with the Israeli government not to proselyte to Israelies or do anything that appears like proselyting.

Edited January 14, 2010 by Vanhin

[Vanhin]

Volgadon, thanks for your help on the question oldfashiongirl had about that Hebrew translation.

Just a point of clarification. There is not a blanket non-proselyting policy in the Church concerning Jews, Israelis or otherwise who do not reside in Israel. Not like we have with teaching Muslims, whom we are not allowed to teach, and I know this from personal experience.

There are many Jews, Palestinians, and Hebrew speaking people throughout the world who do not reside "within Israel or Palestine", who can be taught the restored gospel of Jesus Christ of their own free wills, as we speak, and it would not be in violation of any agreement the Church has made.

You are referring to an agreement that the Church voluntarily entered into with the government of Israel concerning the building of the BYU Jerusalem Center, which only applies to proselyting in Isreal and Palestine. This agreement was made to alleviate concerns that the Center was built for proselyting activities, which it was not.

The BYU Jerusalem Center's Non-Proselyting Agreement that applicants must accept, reveals the nature of the Church's agreement.

NON-PROSELYTIZING AGREEMENT

Brigham Young University, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and BYU's Jerusalem Center for Near Eastern Studies,have given assurances and made commitments to the State of Israel to the effect that no member of the Church, nor anyone affiliated with the University or participating in a University-sponsored program will engage in proselytizing of any kind within Israel and Palestine (the West Bank and Gaza). It Is very important that these assurances and commitments be honored and that those who travel to the Holy Land or have reason to correspond or work with individuals living there be informed of these assurances and commitments and agree to abide by them. Any activities that could be construed as aimed at Including, encouraging or leading people in Israel to Investigate any religion for possible conversion are strictly contrary to the desires of the government and people of Israel and to the commitments made by BYU,The Jerusalem Center, and The Church. By signing below, you agree to not distribute, either directly or by mail, any materialspertaining to the Church or its doctrines within Israel or Palestine. You will not discuss the Church or its doctrines or answer any questions regarding the Church or its doctrines with individuals who reside in the Holy Land or who may be visiting there. You will not Invite guests who are not LDS to attend Church services held in the Holy Land. You understand the assurances and commitment of the Church, University and the Jerusalem Center not to proselyte within Israel or Palestine and agree to abide by them. (BYU Jerusalem Center for Near Eastern Studies)

Regardless, this particular forum is not about proselyting to Jews, and our friend thekabalist resides outside of Israel (Argentina), so we are quite safe to carry on this most interesting correspondence with him.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited January 14, 2010 by Vanhin

[volgadon]

Wrong, Vanhin, there is a blanket policy concerning Israeli citizens. It even applies to sisters on Temple Square, if an Israeli tourist says they want more information, the sisters can't supply it.

I happen to know the issue very well, the building of the BYU center was the immediate cause of the agreement, but it is in no way restricted to BYU.

It is not only a legal matter, which could have repercussions on members of the church living in Israel (an issue of greater concern to me than BYU), but also a manner of being honest and keeping our word.

Not all Jews are Israelis, of course, so in those cases the restrictions don't apply.

[Maya]

Like Thekabalist said he has no interest what so ever to be proselyted to either, so we dont. We simply are here to listen to his fantastic comments from the jewish point of view. Our comments are NOT to be taken as proselyting, but as wondering of the things, that seem to fit together perfectly in the old Israeli writtings and our religion. Ofcourse some new attendies may feel the need of saying more than that... may that be forgiven them, as they dont know.

The kabalist is in his search for the lost tribes stumbled over the BoM and he is understanding its origin IS in Israel. Yet he is a Jew and he will stay a jew.

[oldfashionedgirl]

Thank you for all your help, as I understand it the church only has a policy with the State of Israel that they will not use the BYU Jerusalem Center to proselyte in the Holy Land. BYU students that attend the center must sign a pledge not to talk about their religion while in Israel.

If it were true that we cannot even talk to citizens of Israel on the church, then wouldn't each member of the church have to sign a pledge at baptism just as BYU students do when they go to Israel?

I can understand that missionaries who are called and set apart cannot, but as members?

I also understand that the Church respects the rights of Israel to allow their citizens not to proselytized, but they also allow religious freedom. This is theoretical of course, but how can you choose if there are not choice? Must you seek it out yourself? My friend attends a school there and has been asking me questions about the Bible. Am I stepping out of bounds by answering these questions if she is seeking me out? True, I did start the discussion by asking her questions about her beliefs, but she is asking me now? She is not Jewish, and was born in Russia, but is now an Israeli citizen.

Sorry that this conversation had to be moved :S Should I have just messaged thekabalist instead? I'm new to the forum thing....

[Vanhin]

Sorry that this conversation had to be moved :S Should I have just messaged thekabalist instead? I'm new to the forum thing....

Nope your question was proper there, and I left it there for thekabalist to answer. I know he's been really busy lately, but I'm sure he will get to it. Volgadon's answer about the translation was pretty good too.

[volgadon]

Thank you for all your help, as I understand it the church only has a policy with the State of Israel that they will not use the BYU Jerusalem Center to proselyte in the Holy Land. BYU students that attend the center must sign a pledge not to talk about their religion while in Israel.

If it were true that we cannot even talk to citizens of Israel on the church, then wouldn't each member of the church have to sign a pledge at baptism just as BYU students do when they go to Israel?

BYU Jerusalem staff, faculty and students sign a pledge for bureaucratic reasons.

I am a native-born Israeli member of the church who has lived there for most of my life, and though I had to sign no pledge, the church instructed us all not to proselyte, not to Israelis, not to non-Israelis in Israel.

The pledge is not the point. The church agreed that non of its members would proselyte to Israels or in Israel.

I rather do wish it was talked about more often.

I can understand that missionaries who are called and set apart cannot, but as members?

The church gave its word. That applies to lay members as well as to full-time missionaries.

The church worldwide is known for its integrity, that leads to many doors being opened.

I also understand that the Church respects the rights of Israel to allow their citizens not to proselytized, but they also allow religious freedom. This is theoretical of course, but how can you choose if there are not choice? Must you seek it out yourself? My friend attends a school there and has been asking me questions about the Bible.

The funny thing is that Israeli law allows for proselyting. The issue here is that the church (albeit under pressure) entered into an agreement with the Israeli governement not to proselyte any of its citizens, or even to proselyte in Israel.

So although even though I, as a citizen with full rights, could proselyte, the church said no.

So even if they do seek it out themselves, we are obliged to turn them away.

Sad, but that is the way it is.

The Book of Mormon especially is a sensitive issue, it being our prime proselyting tool.

We barely have permission to use a Hebrew BoM within the walls of our own home, and when my sister was in the US someone had given her a Hebrew BoM, the church asked her not to take it back with her, because if she had to, say, open her bags at customs and that was in there, it would go a long way to undermining the church's reputation for honesty and integrity with the Israeli gvt.

My mom, who is working on her PHD right now through a university in Rumania, had to recieve official permission in order to write about the LDS church in Israel.

Am I stepping out of bounds by answering these questions if she is seeking me out? True, I did start the discussion by asking her questions about her beliefs, but she is asking me now? She is not Jewish, and was born in Russia, but is now an Israeli citizen.

If she is an Israeli citizen, then sadly you are stepping out of bounds.

All the more so if she is in Israel.

[volgadon]

BTW, could we have a disclaimer in the rules thread of that forum about no proselyting in general and no proselyting to citizens of Israel in particular in that forum?

[oldfashionedgirl]

Thank you volgadon for your responses. This will help me in the future. I apologize if I've offended anyone esp. the Israeli government and the Church. I will be careful not to bring up the subject again.

Edited January 15, 2010 by oldfashionedgirl

[OmahaLDS]

I am a native-born Israeli member of the church who has lived there for most of my life, and though I had to sign no pledge, the church instructed us all not to proselyte, not to Israelis, not to non-Israelis in Israel.

Where do you attend Church, and on what day? I visited the Jerusalem center in 2005 (2006?) and there were no students, but I was not sure if local members had meetings there. I seem to remember that they did, but was not sure. Also do you have Friday? Saturday Church?

Just curious.

[volgadon]

Thank you volgadon for your responses. This will help me in the future. I apologize if I've offended anyone esp. the Israeli government and the Church. I will be careful not to bring up the subject again.

I'm not offended, but just please don't send any Israelis the BoM. They can't join at the moment and if this were to get out it would have repurcussions especially for members of the church who intend on living there their whole lives, such as my immediate family.

[volgadon]

Where do you attend Church, and on what day? I visited the Jerusalem center in 2005 (2006?) and there were no students, but I was not sure if local members had meetings there. I seem to remember that they did, but was not sure. Also do you have Friday? Saturday Church?

Just curious.

The Galilee Branch, and on Saturdays. It is the same day for all 3 Israel District branches.

In 2005 what few members we had in Jerusalem (it is the smallest branch, the students don't count, they are temporary) met there on Saturdays.

[Maya]

I just asked the missionaries here about the muslims. They are not allowed to babtize any muslims who have their family close or who are not citizens of Norway. This because the person may be even killed by the family if they chage their religion. Right now there is a guy from Irak ready to be babtized, but he is citizen of Irak so it dont work, they are not allowed to babtize him.

[warriorpoet]

Volgadon,

I am by no means saying that you are wrong regarding your understanding of the blanket policy that no Iraeli citizens (even if outside Israel for vacation or otherwise) can be proselyted. My question comes from the text of the contract entered into between the LDS Church and Israel as quoted below. I can see nothing in this excerpt that would prohibit church members from proselyting Israeli citizens outside of Israel or Palestine. If you have any other documentation to support your assertion, I would be interested in it. Thanks.

[pam]

as quoted below

Am I missing something here?

[Vanhin]

I got a preliminary answer from the Mission President in Northern Colorado, but I'm waiting for the actual wording of the policy. So, as soon as I get that I'll post it. If anyone has access to it, by all means, let us know.

At least here, if an Israeli residing in America wants to be taught by the missionaries, the Mission President will interview them first. I don't know the intent of the interview, but it appears that it is decided on an individual basis. My guess is he explains the situation to them and finds out their circumstances in making the determination. That's all he said.

He did not mention any policies that prevented members from having conversations with their Israeli friends who live outside of Israel. So, that is why I have also put a request in to get the actual instructions/policy in writing. I would think is this was a wide-spread policy of the Church, it would be made clear to the non-Israeli congregations.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

Am I missing something here?

He's probably referring to what I posted from BYU Jerusalem Center "above". Unless he forgot to post something.

It is worth noting that the BYU statement is summarizing the Church's policy:

"[The Church] made commitments to the State of Israel to the effect that no member of the Church, nor anyone affiliated with the University or participating in a University-sponsored program will engage in proselytizing of any kind within Israel and Palestine (the West Bank and Gaza)."

Based only on that, there is no mention about missionary activity with those residing elsewhere (outside of Israel and Palestine).

I'm surprised that no one else here, besides volgadon, has heard of the expanded policy that he is referring to.

Regards,

Vanhin

[warriorpoet]

Sorry ... I meant that it was posted "above". This was my first post on this forum and I thought that the newest post was at the top. Oops.

[pam]

I kinda thought that was the case. Though sometimes my computer filters things so I wasn't sure if I had just missed the link.

[volgadon]

Volgadon,

I am by no means saying that you are wrong regarding your understanding of the blanket policy that no Iraeli citizens (even if outside Israel for vacation or otherwise) can be proselyted. My question comes from the text of the contract entered into between the LDS Church and Israel as quoted below. I can see nothing in this excerpt that would prohibit church members from proselyting Israeli citizens outside of Israel or Palestine. If you have any other documentation to support your assertion, I would be interested in it. Thanks.

That isn't the text, it is a statement on the BYU website.

If you like, I will try and get a statement directly from church officials.

[volgadon]

And that BYU thing that p[eople keep quoting, is talking about a specific aspect, as it applies to BYU.

[Maya]

I think people are mixing the BYU thing with the official one....

The BYU one is almost alike what we ahve in schools these days... not allowed to tell anything about your religion it is seen as proselyting.

[Vanhin]

I think people are mixing the BYU thing with the official one....

The BYU one is almost alike what we ahve in schools these days... not allowed to tell anything about your religion it is seen as proselyting.

We are referencing an agreement that applicants to BYU Jerusalem Center have to sign, which makes reference to an agreement the Church has made with the State of Israel. Volgadon originally said that the Church "signed an agreement with the Israeli government not to proselyte to Israelies or do anything that appears like proselyting." If that is not the agreement that the BYU statement is making reference to, what is it referencing?

It's clear that whatever it is, it applies to "members of the Church" as well.

"[The Church] made commitments to the State of Israel to the effect that no member of the Church, nor anyone affiliated with the University or participating in a University-sponsored program will engage in proselytizing of any kind within Israel and Palestine (the West Bank and Gaza)."

If anyone knows of another agreement, besides the one being references in the BYU statement, show us the money!

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited January 15, 2010 by Vanhin

[volgadon]

Same agreement, but it isn't referenced in full.

I'm talking about things which are very much a part of my life and has been ever since I can remember. I know a little more about it than just a statement on a BYU Jerusalem form.

[warriorpoet]

If you have access to such information that would be great.