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LostSheep

One Nation, Under God

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Hi, I'm trying to write an argumentative essay on why the words "Under God" SHOULD be in the Pledge of Allegiance. I was just wondering what you all think about this. Is it offensive? Or would taking it out cause more problems than leaving it in? Thanks. Just looking for some ideas. ^_^

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As a non-believer, I don't think it's offensive, but I also don't think it's worth fighting over on either side.

If I remember correctly last time this was brought up here, it was mentioned that "under God" was only added to the pledge of allegiance during the red scare because they thought communists wouldn't say it or some other nonsense.

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Guest xforeverxmetalx

I vote we leave it. But to be fair, we should amend it to "one nation, under god (or gods, or lack thereof)..."

That just rolls off the tongue of the elementary school kids, doesn't it?

I say there's nothing wrong with it. Not so much from a "the US is mostly Christian so it's fine" perspective but more so from a historical one, keeping in mind our founding fathers and the beliefs they had, and the struggle they went through for things to be the way they are.

(Well, I might have issues with the way things are now, but even still, we're way better off than most.)

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The problem with it is people think it is from our "founding fathers. It is not.

I could care less either way but it gives people the illusion that it is from "the founding fathers". The county was not founded in the 1950s and if the founding fathers were so adamant on being a "nation under God" it would have came up in the 165 years we had been a nation before hand. Same thing with the money, God was added to the Coins 88 years after we declared independence, paper bills 181 years later, or 1 year after it became our official motto in 1956.

I could take or leave it but would love if history classes would at least explain the history behind it.That it has nothing to do with our founding father beliefs.

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Hi, I'm trying to write an argumentative essay on why the words "Under God" SHOULD be in the Pledge of Allegiance. I was just wondering what you all think about this. Is it offensive? Or would taking it out cause more problems than leaving it in? Thanks. Just looking for some ideas. ^_^

LostSheep:

Study the precepts of Natural Law, which is the framework upon which the Constitution was built. In a nutshell, Natural Law presupposes a creating entity- a God. Also, you can make the argument that ancient Israel's legal system was a great inspiration to the Founders (so much that the original conception of the Seal of the United States had, on one side, an image of the ancient Israelites following the pillar of fire that represents God). That second argument- ancient Israel's inspiration to the Founders- is ancillary to the first, and won't stand up to scrutiny unless you make a strong case for Natural Law.

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The problem with it is people think it is from our "founding fathers. It is not.

The idea that a Creator oversees the entire universe, that He has declared laws upon which governments must operate to give the people maximum freedom, and that a certain morality is required to maintain said freedom, is actually very "Founding Fathers"-ish.

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The idea that a Creator oversees the entire universe, that He has declared laws upon which governments must operate to give the people maximum freedom, and that a certain morality is required to maintain said freedom, is actually very "Founding Fathers"-ish.

I understand what you are saying but because they may have shared they "ideals" doesn't mean they expected, wanted or would support the specific application.

Saying the application of in God we trust, on our money and under God in our pledge, hundreds of years latter, comes from the founding fathers ideals and therefor comes from them themselves is the equivalent to saying Brittany Spears dancing in her underwear on tv or hearing every curse word but the F and S words on public tv comes from them because they supported free speech.

Adding God officially to our government (in these cases) came about from religious fever during the Civil war and is not a reflection of the wishes of the founding fathers, who did not see the need to print these phrases on money when they themselves had the opportunity to.

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The original version:

I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all

Written by Francis Bellamy, a Baptist Minister, not including the words under God (and a few others you find in there these days).

Edited by Dravin

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Ok, time out for a second....Thank you for your comments. The words "under God" were added by Eisenhower in the 50's. This thread isn't about whether or not the words SHOULD of added, but whether they should be taken back out. Obviously if it wasn't there to begin with, christians wouldn't care. But now that it is there, is it appropriate to take it back out, delivering a clear message to Americans that this country DOES NOT believe in or acknowledge God? Don't you think this would cause more problems than it being in there?

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Guest xforeverxmetalx

Ok, time out for a second....Thank you for your comments. The words "under God" were added by Eisenhower in the 50's. This thread isn't about whether or not the words SHOULD of added, but whether they should be taken back out. Obviously if it wasn't there to begin with, christians wouldn't care. But now that it is there, is it appropriate to take it back out, delivering a clear message to Americans that this country DOES NOT believe in or acknowledge God? Don't you think this would cause more problems than it being in there?

Personally, no. The country itself doesn't believe in anything, it doesn't go to church and worship. As far as the people in the country, it's up to them to decide to believe or not. And I doubt that if it were taken out, a whole lot of people would think, "Oh, so God doesn't exist then, guess I won't go to church anymore."

Just to answer that particular question, btw. I've already mentioned my views on the topic.

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Ok, time out for a second....Thank you for your comments. The words "under God" were added by Eisenhower in the 50's. This thread isn't about whether or not the words SHOULD of added, but whether they should be taken back out. Obviously if it wasn't there to begin with, christians wouldn't care. But now that it is there, is it appropriate to take it back out, delivering a clear message to Americans that this country DOES NOT believe in or acknowledge God? Don't you think this would cause more problems than it being in there?

I don't think taking them out would be an indication that the country (which is made up of Christians, Buddhist,Muslims,Wiccans, Atheist, etc) does not believe in God. Since we are no a theocracy you can't say one way or another as the USA is made up of millions of individuals with differing views. Saying the USA believes in God is like saying the USA likes Cheese. It is true for some, not for others and doesn't define such a vast and complex nation with such a broad range of individuals.

However if an attempt was made to remove it there would be more irate Christians who would raise a stink then the few petty Atheist who have raised a stink to remove it.

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The funny thing is that some atheists (myself included) simply don't care. This is the money we buy food and beer with, and that others buy drugs and sex with. Personally, I find it mind-boggling that Christians would want the name of their deity on something as corrupting and sinister as money. But if that's what they want, then whatever. It's their god they're debasing, not mine.

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The funny thing is that some atheists (myself included) simply don't care. This is the money we buy food and beer with, and that others buy drugs and sex with. Personally, I find it mind-boggling that Christians would want the name of their deity on something as corrupting and sinister as money. But if that's what they want, then whatever. It's their god they're debasing, not mine.

Actually I have struggled with the same thoughts you have laid out here.

I have come to the conclusion (sort of):D that the "motto" on the coins and bills is like a "blessing" and a "hope for the best" for it.

What-ever:confused:

but yes, I like it right where it is.

It is a constant reminder for the righteous as well as the. . .

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Hi, I'm trying to write an argumentative essay on why the words "Under God" SHOULD be in the Pledge of Allegiance. I was just wondering what you all think about this. Is it offensive? Or would taking it out cause more problems than leaving it in? Thanks. Just looking for some ideas. ^_^

If we take remove God or any super entity/force/being that gives meaning to right and wrong that the founders of the nation used when they constructed the government, then all our government and laws stemming from that are hypocritical and meaningless.

All I can say is if this ceases to be a nation under God, I will cease to pledge my allegiance to it.

My loyalties lie with my God far more than they lie with my country…

...

Well said, I'd like to add my siggy to this.

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Could you imagine what a GODLESS society would actually look like? Very undesirable and Scary if you ask me. Just take a look at the country of Somalia as a small reminder.

I suspect that many in our society who fight for such a Godless/lawless type of society would not want to reap the consequences that such a society would surely bring on.

New Orleans was a lawless society for a short time after Hurricane Katrina. Lets not forget what happened there. Thugs ran the streets shooting people at will, including doctors/nurses who were trying to save lives. Many homes, stores and small businesses were looted and destroyed.

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Could you imagine what a GODLESS society would actually look like? Very undesirable and Scary if you ask me.

A "GODLESS” society does not exist in that every society has its gods. The government may try to suppress religious worship, but it will never be able to stop people from believing in a deity.

Just take a look at the country of Somalia as a small reminder.

Somalia is not a godless society.

I suspect that many in our society who fight for such a Godless/lawless type of society would not want to reap the consequences that such a society would surely bring on.

Being “Godless” does not equate to being lawless.

New Orleans was a lawless society for a short time after Hurricane Katrina. Lets not forget what happened there. Thugs ran the streets shooting people at will, including doctors/nurses who were trying to save lives. Many homes, stores and small businesses were looted and destroyed.

What happened in New Orleans was the result of the lack of law enforcement, not a godless society.

Let’s also not forget that thousands of desperately thirsty, hungry and ill people did not turn into lawless thugs, including some atheists.

Elphaba

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I don't care either way, as "God" means different things to people, not just the Judeo-Christian God. As far as post Katrina New Orleans goes, the lack of law enforcement was what caused a minority of people to become "Godless thugs" as most people didn't do those things, even if they were hungry. Even though New Orleans is known for wild parties during Mardi Gras, it's a very Christian area since it's part of the Bible Belt.

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Hi, I'm trying to write an argumentative essay on why the words "Under God" SHOULD be in the Pledge of Allegiance. I was just wondering what you all think about this. Is it offensive? Or would taking it out cause more problems than leaving it in? Thanks. Just looking for some ideas. ^_^

The best reason to take it out is that it is not true. As others have pointed out, American citizens hold numerous beliefs regarding a deity, including the belief that there is none. About twenty-five percent of American citizens are not Christian, and their children are pledging to a flag under a god they don't believe in.

However, and again as others have pointed out, it's not worth the fight it would take to have it removed from the pledge. Even if it was successful, there would then be a fight to have it put back in, and so it would go. I feel the same way about "In God We Trust" on our money.

Meh. :P

Elphaba

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