The Nature of God and the "Divine Lego Set"

[WillowTheWhisp]

When I create a meal for my family I do so out of the ingredients in my kitchen. It is not difficult for me to understand God creating the earth out of raw materials which already existed.

[Justice]

Okay. That's helpful but how does it sink with the wording in Genesis.

Also I just want to clarify I'm not trying to be a troll, I'm just confused.

God moved upon the waters, or He moved to a location where water was present.

Genesis 1:

2 ... And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Notice, God had not spoken yet and nothing had been created yet, because God created light in the first day, not water.

He spoke to the water and the water obeyed.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

...

8 And God called the firmament Heaven...

Much like when Christ spoke to the wind and sea and they obeyed.

Mark 4:

41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?

How much more of a pattern can you get?

Moses divided the waters to reveal the dry land. Read the creation account and look for the symbolism. The symbolism runs much deeper than most people imagine, and deeper than anyone can fathom.

In my estimation, to see God speak to elements and have them obey is pretty darn remarkable... not a down grade at all.

Edited January 27, 2010 by Justice

[deseretgov]

I personally believe God doesn't follow the laws of science because He created them. He is able to make food appear on the desert floor, flood the planet, and has an immortal body just for some examples. And then Jesus has his own listed of scientific impossibilities (aka miracles). But I do believe God follows the spiritual laws.

But God didn't create the laws of science. The laws ofscience are simply the way matrials and enregies behave and interact. If you have materials and energies then those "laws" happen. It's not like God thought, "Hmmm let's make water freeze at 32 degrees." No, water just freezes t that point. that's how the molecules of water behave. God in his infinite power uses that to perform his miracles.

The laws of science are what allow God to maniuplate and control the elements of nature.

Now our limited mortal understanding of the laws of science don't allow us to understand the "How" of God's miracles. But if we could understand everything perfectly they wouldn't seem like miracles but natural manipulation of the elements.

If we went back in time and shows the ancients a mircowave it would seem like a miracle. But it's not something magical it's just that our understanding of the lawsof nature allow us to build and use a microwave. Now imagine this with somebody who has a perfect knowledge of everything. Making food appear on the desert floor, flooding the planet, and having an immortal body are child's play.

Edit: But every book except the Book of Abraham uses the word create or created. Even the Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price uses created.

Something cannot be created out of nothing. That's just they way the universe works. Matter can be converted into energy and energy can be converted into matter but something can not be created out of nothing.

According to dictionary.com one definition of create is:

to cause to happen; bring about; arrange, as by intention or design.

So using the word "create" to mean organize or arrange existing elements is allowable in english.

One of the things I've been hearing is that supposedly Heavenly Father once was a human. And I don't mean the He has a body thing, but that once upon a time He was mortal and could sin.

Well since our potential as children of God is to become gods then it is reasonable to conclude that God became how he is through the same process. If we become a god through being born spiritually, gaining a mortal body, experiencing trials, dying, being ressurected to a perfect body, gaining a perfect knowledge; then it's not that far of a stretch tconclude that all gods were made that way.

Is there any scripture (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, or teachings of the prophets) that supports this?

There are scriptures telling us to be perfect and that we are gods and stuff like that.

[Faded]

I've been hearing some strange things at my church and I thought I'd try asking you guys here.

One of the things I've been hearing is that supposedly Heavenly Father once was a human. And I don't mean the He has a body thing, but that once upon a time He was mortal and could sin. Is there any scripture (Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, or teachings of the prophets) that supports this?

I'll go ahead and answer the question that seems to have been skipped.

TOPICAL GUIDE

God, Body of - Corporeal Nature

See also Man, A Spirit Child of Heavenly Father; Man, Physical Creation of

Gen. 1: 27 (Moses 2: 27) God created man in his own image.

Gen. 5: 1 God created man, in the likeness of God made he him.

Gen. 9: 6 in the image of God made he man.

Gen. 18: 33 Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing.

Gen. 32: 30 I have seen God face to face.

Ex. 24: 10 they saw the God of Israel, there was under his feet.

Ex. 31: 18 (Deut. 9: 10) written with the finger of God.

Ex. 33: 11 Lord spake unto Moses face to face.

Ex. 33: 23 thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not.

Num. 12: 8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth.

Matt. 3: 17 a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son.

Matt. 4: 4 every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Matt. 17: 5 a voice out of the cloud.

Luke 24: 39 for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

John 14: 9 he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.

Acts 7: 56 the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Rom. 8: 29 predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son.

2 Cor. 4: 4 Christ, who is the image of God.

Philip. 2: 6 who, being in the form of God.

Philip. 3: 21 our vile body . . . fashioned like unto his glorious body.

Col. 1: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God.

Heb. 1: 3 the express image of his person.

James 3: 9 men which are made after the similitude of God.

1 Jn. 3: 2 when he shall appear, we shall be like him.

Rev. 22: 4 they shall see his face.

Mosiah 7: 27 (Ether 3: 15) image after which man was created.

D&C 20: 18 he created man, male and female, after his own image.

D&C 110: 3 his eyes were as a flame of fire.

D&C 130: 1 Savior shall appear . . . see that he is a man like ourselves.

D&C 130: 22 Father has a body of flesh and bones.

Moses 1: 16 thou art after the similitude of mine Only Begotten.

Moses 6: 9 In the image of his own body . . . created he them.

Abr. 3: 11 Abraham, talked with the Lord, face to face.

Abr. 4: 27 Gods went down to organize man in their own image.

Specificlly in John 5:19 we read: " 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel."

If God the Father showed his Son Jesus Christ what he the Father had already done before him, and that the mortal Jesus Christ was simply following in his footsteps, then we would have to conclude that God the Father must have once been a mortal human being in the same sense that Jesus Christ was a mortal human being. We don't have any further information on the mortal life of God the Father beyond that and we certainly should not speculate. But since Christ was sinless and was following in the footsteps of his Father, I think we can readily assume that the Father was not a sinful person.

The clearest scriptural evidences to establish our belief that, "As man is God once was ..." are actually found in the Bible. Here is a link to the Topical Guide, which is a summarized Concordance covering scriptural references for just about anything. I'm linking the letter "G" as all the sections about God and the Nature of God fall under that.

Topical Guide: G

Edited February 1, 2010 by Faded
link isn't working right

[Faded]

But every book except the Book of Abraham uses the word create or created. Even the Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price uses created.

The problem I think you're running into is creation vs ex-nihilo creation. There is a long standing tradition within Christian doctrine that God spoke and the world instantly popped into existence out of nothing. While that sounds very impressive, what is the basis for jumping to this conclusion? The Bible certainly doesn't say anything like that.

If I create a company, I create it from materials that already exist. If I create a work of art, I create it from existing materials. Does the fact that I failed to create them out of nothing invalidate the use of the "create"? Of course not. Otherwise, nobody that ever lived on this earth could ever be credited with creating anything. But we do you the word to describe the achievements of mankind.

In order to get ex-nihilo creation (creation of something from nothing) out of the word "create" you have to make a separate definition of the word that is only applicable to God (since creating something out of nothing is something that only he can do.)

I do think that God is above the laws of science and the universe. I don't think there is any official doctrine on where matter originates from, other than the fact that this universe has become as it is now by the design and power of God. It is our understanding that this world was created from materials that were already present.

Create

1. to cause to come into being, as something unique that would not naturally evolve or that is not made by ordinary processes.

2. to evolve from one's own thought or imagination, as a work of art or an invention.

3. Theater. to perform (a role) for the first time or in the first production of a play.

4. to make by investing with new rank or by designating; constitute; appoint: to create a peer.

5. to be the cause or occasion of; give rise to: The announcement created confusion.

6. to cause to happen; bring about; arrange, as by intention or design: to create a revolution; to create an opportunity to ask for a raise.

[Justice]

There is a long standing tradition within Christian doctrine that God spoke and the world instantly popped into existence out of nothing.

Which is interesting since Christians also believe it took 6 time periods called "days" to create the earth.

Does God have the power to will the material to create the earth into existence from nothing, but lack the power to will it already created?

Doesn't make much sense. The longer you give it serious thought, the better you will see the contradiction.

[gabelpa]

Way I see it, we had this Big Bang thing billions of years ago, all the stuff in the Universe came from there, but we don't have any ideas as to what the Universe was like before that.

Here's a fun mental exercise... God has infinite power (Priesthood), right? Infinite power means infinite energy. Matter can be turned to Energy, so why not the other way around... Heavenly Father therefore could have created all the matter in the Universe from his Priesthood Power, and made it go BANG! He then guided everything until we reach the point we are at, billions of years later. This is an over-simplification, but it ties together the First Law of Thermodynamics and the Priesthood.

Great part here is, God is Infinite, and you can not diminish infinity by taking away a finite portion of it, it stays infinite.

Edited February 2, 2010 by gabelpa
forgot a line or two