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Kenny

Did Satan understand the Plan of Salvation

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I think the portrayal of Satan in Paradise Lost is probably the most 'accurate'. It should be mandatory reading. I have to say.. if what we believe is true.. I think Milton was inspired.

Edited by bmy-

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It has been most interesting reading people's ideas on this subject and this has helped me understand a few things.

Perhaps I look at this too deeply or am missing something but all that comes to mind when pondering on this subject is a loving Father in heaven wanting us to learn an important lesson.

There is only one way to gain the joy and happiness in the fullness that He has and the keys to that are contained in the Plan of Salvation.

So there has only ever been one plan as has been stated, so why the allowance of another plan if only to be discussed and debated?

How often are we in church given things to do and find it to difficult so try a simpler way.

How many Bishop's or Stake President's rather than follow the hand book try different ways to work with us?

Lucifer had exactly the same opportunity to be our saviour as Jehovah did yet like so many of us faced with something we think is to hard try to improve things by introducing a better way.

And how many of us like Lucifer when our plan is rejected take the hump and refuse to do what know we should.

For many, repenting restores us back, for some it leads to open rebellion and walking away from the one true church.

The answer to the original question I've concluded from this is that while he knew the plan he really did not understand it for had he then his ultimate demise should have change his course.

But that is also part of the lesson the Lord is trying to teach isn't it?

And why we are to constantly encouraged to warn our neighbour.

Edited by Kenny

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Kenny: I do, and I still think he probably feels that way (IE, loves us). But I think his original intention was made quite clear in the scriptures - that it wasn't OUR interest he had at heart, but his own.

His intention was to get the power and the glory at the destruction of our own agency - a gift that God gave us since the time we were unorganized intelligences.

I don't think he would have been cast out of heaven for loving us all too much, if that was the intent of his heart, even if he didn't understand fully (which he must not have, or he would have known the importance of agency).

I think a loving Heavenly Father would teach before he would reject. But I think Satan's thurst for power led him to use the same agency that he wished to strip from us to choose to no longer follow the plan God selected.

A bit ironic, I think.

But it is also a bit interesting to think that this particular plan that was adopted was debated and presented to us as spirit beings. It makes me curious as to whether or not there were even other plans that could have been presented - plans that could have been rejected, but that maybe didn't cause such a rebellion.

Don't confuse love with LUST.

LUST for power, LUST for glory, LUST for lifetime worship and admiration... there's NOTHING about love with Satan.

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you can understand something without understanding every concept in it. I'm pretty sure Lucifer understood the plan (at least generally, we can't discredit that he was a smart cookie). He had to.

I think we all understood what the plan was, but we didn't understand how the physical part of the plan would work. We understood why we needed a body, how to get one and the importance of getting one, but we didn't understand how they actually WORKED until we got one. Im still trying to understand my body :P

Do any of us really understand the whole plan of salvation? It's kind of like the atonement, we understand what it is and how it affects us, but how did it work? How could all of us be saved by the suffering of one man for all of us? How does it work forwards and backwards? See, we understand the atonement, just not everything about it.

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I think Satan understood enough of the plan to find loopholes it. More than that though, I think Satan knows people and he knows how to manipulate them. He is the father of lies. He is all about smoke and mirrors and making wrong look right. And I think he knows how to get people to do things they otherwise wouldn't do. Reminds me of Hitler and all that followed him. Would they have done those things without being lulled into carnal security?

There is NO DOUBT in my mind that Satan does not have the mind and will of God. Nor any of his charitable capacities. But we shouldn't underestimate the dude either. He knows us and he sees more than we do. He and his kind know who the Savior is and are subject unto him. There is some important knowledge at play there that gives him a decided advantage. And he knows our fallen nature better than anyone and he could snow any one of us.

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I think you're on to something here. Satan is the Father of Lies. A cunning devil who wanted the Glory of the Father. Well that was only possible by following the Father's plan...coming to earth, progressing through life by the exercising of his agency and qualifying through righteous choices, coupled with the Atonement of the Savior. Then all that the Father hast would be his (ours). He didn't want to do all that. He's selfish. He probably knew he wouldn't do that. He wanted Glory, and a selfish person wants instant gratification. Maybe his plan was to destroy the Father. Heavenly Father asked "who shall I send?" Maybe we had a say in who He would send. If Satan could convince the majority of God's children to accept him as the savior, and adopt his twisted plan, it would have destroyed the agency of man, which was absolutely necessary for the Plan of Salvation to work. He made his plan sound so perfect. We would all be saved! Nobody would be lost! Yet he had to have known agency was an integral part of the plan. Without it, Adam and Eve could not have fallen. They would have remained in the Garden forever, having no posterity. If we had asked that he be our savior, would that make God a liar? Would he somehow cease to be God because His plan would have been frustrated, thus making him equal to Satan? I wonder if that is what he was trying to do. Well his first attempt failed. He was rejected and Jesus was accepted as our Savior. So he tries to do what is quoted here. He gets Adam and Eve to eat the fruit to become mortal, then planned to have them partake of the fruit of the Tree of Life so that they live forever. Again trying to frustrate the Plan of Salvation, making God a liar. Thoughts?

which brings up something interesting.

I've always wondered why God placed Cherubum with a flaming sword that turned every which way to keep Adam and Eve out of the Garden once they left.

Maybe Satan's plan wasn't to beguile Eve and have her and her husband fall and become mortal.

Maybe his plan was to have them fall and then try and partake of the fruit of the Tree of Life.

Alma even said

Alma 12:21-23

(Alma speaking unto Zeezrom, other lawyers and the congregation)

21 What does the scripture mean, which saith that God placed cherubim and a flaming sword on the east of the garden of Eden, lest our first parents should enter and partake of the fruit of the tree of life, and live forever? And thus we see that there was no possible chance that they should live forever.

22 Now Alma said unto him: This is the thing which I was about to explain. Now we see that Adam did fall by the partaking of the forbidden fruit, according to the word of God; and thus we see, that by his fall, all mankind became a lost and fallen people.

23 And now behold, I say unto you that if it had been possible for Adam to have partaken of the fruit of the tree of life at that time, there would have been no death, and the word would have been void, making God a liar, for he said: If thou eat thou shalt surely die.

More interesting 'what if' food for thought. So how could Satan NOT understand the plan of salvation if this is the case?

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Leviticus 16:

8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat.

9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord’s lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.

10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

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Yes I agree he had to know even be intimate with the details. What are your feelings and understanding of his motivation to come up with an alternitive plan?

The answer is found in Alma 12 and 42. Man, have I beat that dead horse enough in these forums? LOL

Alma 12 and 42, when seriously studied, outline what Satan's plan was.

It's rather remarkable, and not so surprising that so many sided with him. His plan had everything Father's plan had, he just altered the timing of one small detail. That one small timing shift would eliminate mortality for mankind, and also as a result, agency. He wanted Eve to partake of the tree of life immediately after she partook of the forbidden fruit...

Ever wonder why Satan tempted Eve and not Adam? Well, this is where the answer is.

Alma 12 and 42 outline some of the consequences, but there are plenty more that are not mentioned if you ponder it through to it's logical conclusion.

So, Kenny, read (study) Alma 12 and 42 and send me a PM with your thoughts. These discussions never have gone over well on this forum.

Edited by Justice

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I've always wondered why God placed Cherubum with a flaming sword that turned every which way to keep Adam and Eve out of the Garden once they left.

YES! You're on the right path!

Edited by Justice

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I've always wondered why God placed Cherubum with a flaming sword that turned every which way to keep Adam and Eve out of the Garden once they left.

Let me show you one thing...

Alma 42: 2-3

2 Now behold, my son, I will explain this thing unto thee. For behold, after the Lord God sent our first parents forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground, from whence they were taken—yea, he drew out the man, and he placed at the east end of the garden of Eden, cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the tree of life—

Gen. 3: 24

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

By these verses, did God place the cherubim to guard the tree of life from Adam and Eve?

Read closely.

These verses say the cherubim were placed after they left Eden, not before. So, it *might* be they weren't placed to guard them from Adam and Eve, but from "man."

The General Authorities often say Adam and Eve are to be praised and commended for their choice to fall. But, was that choice really the forbidden fruit? Or, was there another choice after to follow God's plan and not what Satan wanted as described in Alma 12 and 42? It seems if they chose God's plan for them to leave the Garden at that point, with their eyes opened, then it would make more sense why they are to be commended.

Why is this distinction important? Well, if you're serious, send me a PM with what you've learned from Alma 12 and 42 and I'll show you some things I found in the scriptures and let you decide.

Edited by Justice

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Understand it no I don't think Satan fully undestands it as much as he has knowledge of it. He is out to usurp God's Authority and replace God with himself as God. So I like the thinking of Justice here. Satan is trying his best to use the freedom of choice against God so that we, God's own Children will make Him out to be a liar which would undermine God's authority making him cease to be God.

Of course that is my limited understanding.

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I think we all understood very well what was going on in the premortal life. To think God would send anyone of his children to a place of extreme misery without a huge degree of knowing whats happening just would not happen. As to why this son of morning rebelled....pride goeth before the fall.

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