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Kenny

Did Satan understand the Plan of Salvation

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Last Sunday's lesson was on Adam and Eve and a question was asked did Satan understand the plan of salvation?

Now I know the answer to this question but judging by the varying answers from those in the class it would be interesting to get some viewpoints from further afield.

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I always thought he did, hence why he presented his own, manipulated version of Heavenly Father's plan to the hosts of heaven.

I always wondered that if he didn't understand the plan, how could he have presented a changed form of it that people would accept? He was one of the 'noble and great ones', so I doubt he was clueless.

In fact, I bet he knew a good amount of the plan (maybe even a lot of the details too), considering now he's trying so hard to keep people from learning about it.

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I think I know what you are getting at Kenny: If Satan knew the plan, then he knew the plan called for an adversary. If he knew the plan called for an adversary, why would he fulfill that role?

This was one of the big questions I had when I left on a mission, and it got answered to my satisfaction in the MTC. What we need to question is not what Satan knew, but what he understood and what he would think.

Obviously Satan thinks his plan is not futile. If he did, he could foil God by simply “lying low” for a while. I think he honestly thinks he’s going to win.

Now, what is his definition of win? Is one soul enough? 10? 100?

In addition, I think he is still proceeding with his plan. Look at how many addictions there are out there. And just what does an addiction do? Removes our agency.

Beer = Satan’s plan in a bottle! ;)

You hear that misery loves company. Maybe 1/3rd of the host of heaven is not enough. If they want us all to be miserable like they are, how could they do that if Satan didn’t start with Eve? I think it might even be possible that if we didn’t come to this world as spirit children born into bodies, we could have been sent somewhere else, where Satan may not have had his chance with us.

But honestly, I think it is more personal than that. How many friends do you think you had in that 1/3rd host of heaven? How many of them knew you better than you know yourself now? They may not have dark and evil intentions exactly – but I’m sure they still want you to be with them after this life, right?

It is an interesting subject to contemplate, but the answers are there, I think. I realize not all of mine were doctrinal ;)

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I always thought he did, hence why he presented his own, manipulated version of Heavenly Father's plan to the hosts of heaven.

I always wondered that if he didn't understand the plan, how could he have presented a changed form of it that people would accept? He was one of the 'noble and great ones', so I doubt he was clueless.

In fact, I bet he knew a good amount of the plan (maybe even a lot of the details too), considering now he's trying so hard to keep people from learning about it.

Yes I agree he had to know even be intimate with the details. What are your feelings and understanding of his motivation to come up with an alternitive plan?

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I think I know what you are getting at Kenny: If Satan knew the plan, then he knew the plan called for an adversary. If he knew the plan called for an adversary, why would he fulfill that role?

You are on the right track but consider that he, while realising there must be an adversary also knew there must be a saviour. He (being a saviour) must love us unconditionally, be willing to suffer in innocence, take on our sins and offer up the ultimate sacrifice. Do you think that could have been the basis of coming up will an alternative plan instead?

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Obviously Satan thinks his plan is not futile. If he did, he could foil God by simply “lying low” for a while. I think he honestly thinks he’s going to win.

Now, what is his definition of win? Is one soul enough? 10? 100?

In addition, I think he is still proceeding with his plan. Look at how many addictions there are out there. And just what does an addiction do? Removes our agency.

;)

It was said in the class, with confusion I may add, how was it possible that he could aid the plan by beguiling Eve. What is your thoughts on that?

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Kenny: I do, and I still think he probably feels that way (IE, loves us). But I think his original intention was made quite clear in the scriptures - that it wasn't OUR interest he had at heart, but his own.

His intention was to get the power and the glory at the destruction of our own agency - a gift that God gave us since the time we were unorganized intelligences.

I don't think he would have been cast out of heaven for loving us all too much, if that was the intent of his heart, even if he didn't understand fully (which he must not have, or he would have known the importance of agency).

I think a loving Heavenly Father would teach before he would reject. But I think Satan's thurst for power led him to use the same agency that he wished to strip from us to choose to no longer follow the plan God selected.

A bit ironic, I think.

But it is also a bit interesting to think that this particular plan that was adopted was debated and presented to us as spirit beings. It makes me curious as to whether or not there were even other plans that could have been presented - plans that could have been rejected, but that maybe didn't cause such a rebellion.

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And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.

The scripture is from Moses 4:6

Satan does not understand the plan

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Kenny: As to why he begiled Eve... this question was actually one that shook my teenage testimony, because it was hard to understand the answers people were trying to tell me.

I have a quote on it that I don't have access to right now. I might not have it at all, actually, but I'll look when I get home. But the crux of the quote came down to this:

Knowledge is different from understanding or intelligence. We may have a knowledge without understanding, or intelligence without knowledge. I think Satan had facts, but lacked the knowledge necessary to understand the role he was filling.

I'm not sure we know why he lacked such understanding - only that he did.

I'll post tonight if I can find the quote I got in the MTC on this...

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If you look at the footnotes for the word 'know', it leads to

John 16: 1-3

1 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

and if you look at the footnotes for 'mind'

1 Cor. 2: 16.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

I always thought that it was talking about Satan refusing to obey the word of God and directly rebelling against God rather than not knowing the plan of salvation. I don't think that Satan's 'banishment' was complete until he beguiled Eve. Satan kicked himself out of heaven (our testimonies help too), but he was then told after both Adam and Eve had partaken of the fruit:

moses 4:20,21

20 And I, the Lord God, said unto the serpent: Because thou hast done this thou shalt be cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life;

21 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed; and he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Then again, Satan couldn't have started his work to 'destroy' the work of the Lord if Adam and Eve were still in the Garden today could he? Also, how can he destroy the work of the Lord when the Lord's work is outlined in the plan of salvation?

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And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world.

The scripture is from Moses 4:6

Satan does not understand the plan

Not knowing the mind of God does not mean he did not understand the plan.

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Yes I agree he had to know even be intimate with the details. What are your feelings and understanding of his motivation to come up with an alternitive plan?

My earthly self with observations about siblings: I always wondered if Satan and Jehovah had a gospel discussion and Satan threw a hissy fit when he realized that Jehovah was correct about some point or another. He then had a vedetta against Jehovah that lasts to this day.

Or maybe he thought that Jehovah was Heavenly Father's "favorite" child and was bitter about that.

My honest self: I have no idea what his motivation could have been to create another plan. Just to throw out ideas here:

1. It was Heavenly Father's plan, but I wonder if we all worked on it together in the council in heaven. HF probably knew the plan in it's perfection, but maybe He allowed all of us to have a say and to help create it. I'm sure we all helped enact it before we came to this earth. Maybe Lucifer had an idea that was scrapped in the brainstorming stage that he was really attached to and thats how it was created.

2. (I'm assuming) Sin and transgression were present before we came to Earth, and maybe Lucifer was facinated with it. Who knows, maybe at first he thought his modification was a good idea (to keep us all from sinning), but it could have turned bad.

3. Lucifer wanted to be the Savior and thought that by presenting a modified plan, he would have more of a chance at becoming the Savior. Obviously he wanted the glory for himself (as stated in the scriptures), and his want for power was probably pointed out when Jehovah was appointed. Lucifer HAD to have had good reasoning behind his own plan because he drew away 1/3 of the hosts of heaven.

These are just some senerios that came to my mind. They are all 'what ifs', I honestly don't know the motivation, nor do I claim to know.

Here's a question: does it matter that we know Satan's motivation? We know that it happened. I think if I personally knew the motivation, I would be even more distraught that a brother of mine would stick to it, allow many of my brother and sisters to follow, and even leave home to never return because of it. I mean think about it: he was a noble and great one! He knew and was trusted so much by all of us. If you ponder about how great the fall really was, it's an understatement that Satan is miserable.

I'm sure that'll be a question to ask Heavenly Father after I die.

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Then again, Satan couldn't have started his work to 'destroy' the work of the Lord if Adam and Eve were still in the Garden today could he? Also, how can he destroy the work of the Lord when the Lord's work is outlined in the plan of salvation?

Exactly, not much of an adversary with only two of Father's children down here, he needed access to all of us. That is why he had to know the plan, use it against Adam and bring about the fall. Adam would never have partook of the fruit and the only other commandment was to multiply and replenish the Earth not possible until after the fall.

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which brings up something interesting.

I've always wondered why God placed Cherubum with a flaming sword that turned every which way to keep Adam and Eve out of the Garden once they left.

Maybe Satan's plan wasn't to beguile Eve and have her and her husband fall and become mortal.

Maybe his plan was to have them fall and then try and partake of the fruit of the Tree of Life.

Alma even said

Alma 12:21-23

(Alma speaking unto Zeezrom, other lawyers and the congregation)

21 What does the scripture mean, which saith that God placed cherubim and a flaming sword on the east of the garden of Eden, lest our first parents should enter and partake of the fruit of the tree of life, and live forever? And thus we see that there was no possible chance that they should live forever.

22 Now Alma said unto him: This is the thing which I was about to explain. Now we see that Adam did fall by the partaking of the forbidden fruit, according to the word of God; and thus we see, that by his fall, all mankind became a lost and fallen people.

23 And now behold, I say unto you that if it had been possible for Adam to have partaken of the fruit of the tree of life at that time, there would have been no death, and the word would have been void, making God a liar, for he said: If thou eat thou shalt surely die.

More interesting 'what if' food for thought. So how could Satan NOT understand the plan of salvation if this is the case?

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My opinion:

Satan's overall purpose has been to get someone to hand the role of "god" to him. He first sought it from the Father directly by asking for the honor of a savior--while proposing a plan that would have left little for a savior to actually DO (no unpleasant little trip into Gethsemane necessary if no one has ever committed any sins that require an atonement). He then sought it from the councils in heaven, but was thrust out. He then sought it from the archangel, Michael, in his ignorant state--hoping to purchase his allegiance by positioning himself as the giver of a blessing that the Father had been denying them. But Adam and Eve rightly attributed the blessings of the fall to God, and they taught their children to seek messengers from Him.

Satan now seeks merely to be "god" over as many who will accept him. It's a poor imitation of what he was originally after; but it's all he's got left.

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I've always wondered why God placed Cherubum with a flaming sword that turned every which way to keep Adam and Eve out of the Garden once they left.

Maybe Satan's plan wasn't to beguile Eve and have her and her husband fall and become mortal.

Maybe his plan was to have them fall and then try and partake of the fruit of the Tree of Life.

A rather bizarre thought just occurred to me:

What would the effect be if an embodied and immortal Michael, under Satan's tutelage and having just partaken of the Tree of Life, somehow managed to return to the heavenly councils and announced he'd switched sides?

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Kenny: As to why he begiled Eve... this question was actually one that shook my teenage testimony, because it was hard to understand the answers people were trying to tell me.

QUOTE]

GaySaint basic human nature is the key to the answer. I think sometimes that we can get caught up in trying to figure out the mind of someone we dont understand but when you get down to it Lucifer could not live up to his son of the morning status and probably to save face came up with an idea that made him look to us better than he was.

What I am trying to show is just how selfish and cowardly Satan was.

There are many discernable traits to someone with no real courage and is self-centred, a couple is to be cunning and manipulative.

As the adversary he was the exact opposite of the Saviour so therefore had no real interest in our salvation except as a trophy to present as payment for his great idea.

Egocentric is another one of those traits, remember it wasn't the plan that got him exiled but the revolt after not being chosen.

Now that he was out of heaven he lost the influence and protection of God and this changed him from Lucifer to the devil.

All he needed now was access to us so knowing the plan beguiled Eve. Having broken one of the two commandments they were asked to keep Adam partook and opened the door for us to come down.

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which brings up something interesting.

More interesting 'what if' food for thought. So how could Satan NOT understand the plan of salvation if this is the case?

Satan had no real power over Adam and Eve while they remained faithful to the commandments of God; he was more interested in us or those that would not obey the commandments.

This is the great lesson God continues to teach us if we obey the commandments we nullify Satan's power.

Satan cannot force us to disobey but he certainly can temp us to forget them once in a while. He understands the plan that we can repent and regain the power to put him behind us so uses his best trick of all to get us to think God does not love us because of our sins or is ashamed of us because He cannot look on sin in the least degree.

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Last Sunday's lesson was on Adam and Eve and a question was asked did Satan understand the plan of salvation?

Now I know the answer to this question but judging by the varying answers from those in the class it would be interesting to get some viewpoints from further afield.

There is not information in scriptures on that.

If he did know about it, then whatever he rebelled over seemed to be for him worth rebelling for.

However his actions in the Garden of eden would seem to indicate that he was not aware of all the details.

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I have been studying a little about the war in heaven and like many of you, I have always been taught that there were two plans presented; one from Jesus and one from Satan. I am learning now that there was only one plan presented and that was the plan of the Father. The ONLY question on the table was "who shall I send" as the plan needed a sacrificial lamb.

I think Satan understood the plan when it was presented to the group much like the rest of us. Rather than having a plan himself though, I think he had an agenda where he could appear to save people without actually having to sacrifice himself. It was a wicked agenda to get what he wanted rather than an actual cohesive plan.

I still don't think Satan has a plan. I actually had someone here on the forum try to teach me that sooner. I think I understand now what that person was trying to say. I think Satans only aim was to gain power. Now his destiny is set and he knows it and so he works to thwart the plan of God. But it is as it was in the beginning. There has always only been one plan and then the opposition against it. Kinda like how congress works. The underdogs rarely have a better plan. They just do the only thing they can do is stand in the way of the other side.

Edited by Misshalfway

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Think about it do you really think any of us in the premortal existence even the Saviour really and truly knew what we were letting ourselves in for? I am sure I agreed to certain aspects of my life and we know we were foreordained to certain roles.

I don't think any of us truly understood this existence before we landed in it

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Think about it do you really think any of us in the premortal existence even the Saviour really and truly knew what we were letting ourselves in for? I am sure I agreed to certain aspects of my life and we know we were foreordained to certain roles.

I don't think any of us truly understood this existence before we landed in it

As we have the veil we don't know, however we did know enough that we shouted/sang for joy, and two that after seeing how everything is so dismal here (incomparison to being in God's presence) that we were still willing to risk eternal seperation from God.

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As we have the veil we don't know, however we did know enough that we shouted/sang for joy, and two that after seeing how everything is so dismal here (incomparison to being in God's presence) that we were still willing to risk eternal seperation from God.

Well, I sang for joy when my dad first gave me the car and a credit card.:cool: You know.....before I got the bill. LOL

I think its kinda like the Dr. when he says "there is going to be a little pressure", and then you feel like he hit you with a wrecking ball. It's a whole knew thing to experience what everyone was talking about.

Edited by Misshalfway

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Well, I sang for joy when my dad first gave me the car and a credit card.:cool: You know.....before I got the bill. LOL

I think its kinda like the Dr. when he says "there is going to be a little pressure", and then you feel like he hit you with a wrecking ball. It's a whole knew thing to experience what everyone was talking about.

hehehehe maybe so ^_^

Yet were stsill willing to go thru with it even after seeing someone else screaming bloody murder when they get poked.

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Well, I sang for joy when my dad first gave me the car and a credit card.:cool: You know.....before I got the bill. LOL

I think its kinda like the Dr. when he says "there is going to be a little pressure", and then you feel like he hit you with a wrecking ball. It's a whole knew thing to experience what everyone was talking about.

as per usual you get me perfectly MissH lol

hehehehe maybe so

Yet were stsill willing to go thru with it even after seeing someone else screaming bloody murder when they get poked.

I managed to forget inbetween each child just how painful having a baby is lol its only when in the middle, then at some point during I think I can't do this anymore !!! The spirit has trouble understanding the physical even something we have experienced

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