Confrontation at church

[pam]

I think that they are criminals.

They had 48 dogs in their house. Even if they have mental problems, they did probably not have the issues by the time they started to "collect" poor animals.

Another thing:

How can you be in the position to have so many dogs and not be able to pay tithing, but asking for money from the Church?

In my opinion it is a big crime to treat animals like that. The dogs don`t know why they lose their hair or why the don`t have enough to drink.

I would ignore these people and call the police.

And although they are still members of our church it seemed that they were kind of evil right from the beginning.

Like I said:

48 dogs? That is terrible.

I have two dogs and I love them so much as if they are my little brothers.

A little judgmental aren't we?

[Wisc]

I think we're all being judgmental. And anyone who claims not to be is a big fat juicy crunchy oozing puss filled liar. We're only commanded to not judge Unrighteously. Never said we couldnt judge. In fact we're encouraged to become good judges. Sort of like the thou shalt not murder commandment. We can kill... as long as it isnt Murder aka the shedding of innocent blood. But this is a long and deep topic that could take days to sift through.

Oh another thought... these people were engaging in criminal behavior since nearly every city, town, and metro in the USA has ordinances about keeping animals and regulates how many cats dogs and chickens we can have in our yard. So unless these people lived out in the county they were most assuredly breaking a law. And this may be crossing a line but I bet they even listen to Rush!

Edited February 2, 2010 by Wisc

[LuckOfTheIrish]

Everyone has a right to attend a religious institution freely, whenever and wherever they choose. But we also have an obligation to follow the laws. They have every right to attend church, but when it infringes on the safety of others or creates a hostile environment, it's time to step in. People are accountable for their own actions, whatever their mental capacity is. Luckily we live in a society with plenty of resources. At the very least, they need a referral to APS. Call the police any and every time you feel your safety is impacted.

Edited February 2, 2010 by LuckOfTheIrish

[pam]

I think we're all being judgmental. And anyone who claims not to be is a big fat juicy crunchy oozing puss filled liar. We're only commanded to not judge Unrighteously. Never said we couldnt judge. In fact we're encouraged to become good judges. Sort of like the thou shalt not murder commandment. We can kill... as long as it isnt Murder aka the shedding of innocent blood. But this is a long and deep topic that could take days to sift through.

Oh another thought... these people were engaging in criminal behavior since nearly every city, town, and metro in the USA has ordinances about keeping animals and regulates how many cats dogs and chickens we can have in our yard. So unless these people lived out in the county they were most assuredly breaking a law. And this may be crossing a line but I bet they even listen to Rush!

Excuse me but calling someone that has mental problems evil is being judgmental.

[Elphaba]

People are accountable for their own actions, whatever their mental capacity is.

If they are mentally incapacitated, which this elderly couple clearly is, then no, they are not.

This couple needs help, not condemnation. I don't blame havejoy for wanting nothing to do with them because they can literally harm him.

Unfortunately, as is true of many people with certain mental illnesses, these people are extremely difficult to deal with, through no fault of their own. And as is true of all people with mental illness, they deserve compassion.

People who have a gazillion pets do so because they are mentally ill. They usually believe they are actually helping, not hurting the animals. The believe they have a special ability to communicate with their animals, and they will even bring home hurt animals because they believe only they have the special ability to cure them.

That is mental illness, and in cases like this, no they are not responsible for what they're doing.

Elphaba

[havejoy]

Sadly, 4 of the last 6 dogs I picked up have heart worms so bad that they may not be able to be treated. If they end up dying that will only leave 4 out of 14.

This couple has spent the last two days getting people to take them to the police, the Sheriff, the SPCA and to lawyers offices....I've had a few calls from members telling me to be careful because the man says he prayed and God has told him I'm evil. Sheeesh

I will be talking to the Bishop Friday evening.

[Wisc]

Excuse me but calling someone that has mental problems evil is being judgmental.

How do you know they're not evil? I'd say Manson has a mental problem too....

Arent you yourself making a judgment by assuming that they are "innocent" and merely incapacitated by their mental capacity? Truth is none of us here knows for sure. so far seems all the opinions and advice given have been well founded based on what information has been presented only. And doing that isnt bad thing. Heck thats how our courts of law work.

[pam]

I made no such judgment. We had someone not long ago post that those with mental illnesses are evil. No lie. I wanted to ward off any kind of stereotypes. Not all of those with mental illnesses are evil. That's all I'm saying.

[Moksha]

Smile and walk away. There's nothing you can do to appease crazy people.

This sounds like the best advice Havejoy. The compassion you demonstrated by intervening between the police officer and the old couple is praiseworthy and should continue. The confrontation came from the same mental illness. Thumbs up to you and the people of your ward! :)

[Bini]

Ugh, I meant to come back sooner!

I think avoiding them is your best option. Since you're more directly involved with the "animal issue", that's where my focus and concern would be, and not trying to justify my rightful actions to these unfortunately confused individuals. If they further harass you, make a report to the police.

[havejoy]

Smile and walk away it is then unless the Bishop has some other way for me to handle it. I think he'll agree though.

[ferretrunner]

Adult Protective Services. Call them or have the Bishop call. If their living arrangements and mental capacity are as impacted as you have seen, they need some sort of help. Perhaps assisted living or at least some services in the home.

[LuckOfTheIrish]

I'm referring to the law. They are accountable under the color of the law. If they harm someone physically, they will be arrested just like you or me. It is the job of the judicial system to decipher who is mentally ill or not, and they obviously are and would be dealt with accordingly at that point in court and afforded medical help in lieu of a sentence. My point was that every single person is held accountable for their actions by law enforcement at that intitial level. Spiritual accountability is a different subject that I'm not qualified to comment on.

[havejoy]

Adult Protective Services. Call them or have the Bishop call. If their living arrangements and mental capacity are as impacted as you have seen, they need some sort of help. Perhaps assisted living or at least some services in the home.

The Bishop is already in contact with APS and has been for several weeks. I don't know the details of what makes it take so long.

[Generally_Me]

What an unfortunate situation! We've been through something similar (crazy people, no animal hoarding) and, our answer was, we played the avoidance game for a while, and when she started telling people tales about me my husband gave me the great advise of "the people who really matter know what really happened" and "Feel sorry for her, this is really how she sees the world." I don't know if any of that helps you, but thought I'd share.

[havejoy]

I just got off the phone with a Deputy from the Sheriff's office. This couple wants to file charges against me for stealing 5 dogs. I don't know where the number 5 comes from but after talking to me the deputy is going to go talk to the animal control officer and look at the pictures before proceeding with anything. He did say he thought there was something 'off' about the man.

I wonder if I should just slip out after the Sacrament is passed and go home this coming Sunday....

Rats, I haven't even had a speeding ticket in years.

[Wisc]

You're gonna be fine. Just because someone accuses you of something doesnt mean you get into trouble. After all "the burden of proof rests on the prosicution" what that means is you dont even have to try and "prove" you're innocent. THEY have to prove you did it. :) If I were you I would keep some distance from these people for a bit until something can be worked out to make the situation safer.

[havejoy]

The detective called me on Saturday and told me he had been to this couple's home and told them he wouldn't accept charges against me. The man was not happy. He called me after the detective left and threatened to go to the DA and file charges, says I violated his space and he'll never go to church again because the Bishop told him to back off. He's threatening to go to the newspaper and do whatever it takes to "tear your world up, Lady".

He also says he had a stroke Saturday morning and it's my fault.

I'm not worried he'll do anything to me legally but I have some concern he might show up at church and try to do something stupid.

I'm trying to decide now if I should tell the Animal Control Officer to go ahead and issue the tickets ($245.00 per dog for not having the state mandated rabies shots) and charge him with animal cruelty or if I should get someone from church to help me talk to him and help him see that it was out of my control once the officer saw the horrible condition of those first 8 dogs.

BTW, 10 have died now but it looks as though at least 3 of the last 4 will live and maybe all 4 will make it.

[Jenamarie]

I'm trying to decide now if I should tell the Animal Control Officer to go ahead and issue the tickets ($245.00 per dog for not having the state mandated rabies shots) and charge him with animal cruelty or if I should get someone from church to help me talk to him and help him see that it was out of my control once the officer saw the horrible condition of those first 8 dogs.

BTW, 10 have died now but it looks as though at least 3 of the last 4 will live and maybe all 4 will make it.

Don't go anywhere near him. He's already proven to be irrational. Trying to explain anything to him will be like talking to a wall and only aggrivate the situation.

[mnn727]

I'm trying to decide now if I should tell the Animal Control Officer to go ahead and issue the tickets ($245.00 per dog for not having the state mandated rabies shots) and charge him with animal cruelty or if I should get someone from church to help me talk to him and help him see that it was out of my control once the officer saw the horrible condition of those first 8 dogs.

.

why do anything? for gosh sakes do not try to reason with him

[john doe]

Whatever you do, do not have contact with this man, either in person or by phone. If he insists on pursuing you, get a protective order against him.

[havejoy]

He has also threatened to sue me in civil court and there is a chance he can find an attorney to take his case. He has sued several people in the past and is suing someone right now. If I can get him to see reality he won't do this.

If he does sue me then maybe the best defense is a good offense and once he's charged with these things he'll have less of a chance of success in suing me.

The other part of the situation is that I'm worried what will happen to them in a couple of weeks when the food runs out and the church isn't there to help them. They really don't seem to be able to take care of themselves.

I've been praying and haven't gotten an answer so maybe I should ask if doing nothing is what I should do. Maybe the answer is to do nothing and it'll blow over.

I just want there to be something I can do to fix this.

[MorningStar]

What a hard situation. Prayers for you, Havejoy.

[Wisc]

He has also threatened to sue me in civil court and there is a chance he can find an attorney to take his case. He has sued several people in the past and is suing someone right now. ...

I just want there to be something I can do to fix this.

Have those tickets issued... then he will be so tied up financially he wont be able to think about getting a lawyer. Secondly, dont worry about being sued. He doesnt have a case. The detective wouldnt take his case and when a civil court sees that its gonna HURT his case BADLY... prob to the point they dismiss the case and make him pay all the court costs dependant upon your counter suit. Which you should do IF this guy actually goes for it. You get served then you turn right around and lawyer up and sue him for slander, making false police reports, and harrassment....and anything else you and your lawyer can cook up that may hold water in court.

To answer the last thing you said; there is NOTHING you can do to fix this. Find peace in that... in knowing that his problems are out of your hands and NONE OF YOUR RESPONSIBILITY :) Just live your life and let this guy go crazy in his own world.

Remember it was said, "Fear not"

[need4peace]

Sorry this situation has continued on so long for you. Without me condemning the couple here I would suggest you do what Elder Carlos E Asay counselled "Avoid those who would tear down your faith" -

I see this as not being self righteous but being self protective.

Sometimes we have to walk away and let God do His will - we need to get out of His way hand the "steering wheel" over to Him. You may have done all you can so "let go and let God" -

As for the animals the law is the law and if the animals are being treated cruelly, whether intentional or not they need an advocate to stand on their behalf. I had to inform the RSPCA (Australia) about a sister who had kept a cat confined in a very small cage continually without any exercise with insufficient shelter in the heat or the cold. She thought she was protecting the cat but of course wasn't and wouldn't listen to common sense so someone had to do something and in the end those in authority were the only ones that could help the cat.

Let the authorities know and leave it to them and let go for the sake of your sanity.

Keep your "Armour of God" on and have faith that He is there for you and will protect you and that He is there for the couple and the animals too.

All the best

love from downunder :)