What do people think of LDS members selling alcohol as a bartender/bar owner?

[Guest xforeverxmetalx]

Shopping at the mall.

"Why that's a beautiful dress sister Jones, but it's a bit short so i would be disappointed if you get it"

That brings up a good point, actually.

Should you take a job at a clothing store selling immodest clothes? A convenience/grocery store selling alcohol and cigarettes? Starbucks? A music store selling some not so brilliant CDs? Where exactly is the line?

I think it's a personal choice. Personally I'd take a job as a bartender if I felt like I had nothing else to go for, but if that's all you can get, then do what you have to do.

[mrmarklin]

Topic.

You mean like JW Marriott?? There's a building named after him at BYU.

Who basically said that he couldn't survive in the hotel business without a bar.

[Moksha]

The WoW is a test of obedience. A covenant made by members. A Mormon serving liqueur is like a Sikh who works at Gillette.

Tell that to the LDS working at the casinos in Nevada. On the other hand, if the WoW only covered multi-level marketing....

[Carl62]

So is all this saying that a person could still be considered a member in good standing if they owned a liquor store, but didn't drink? Or that they could own a strip club as long as they didn't watch?

[bytor2112]

So is all this saying that a person could still be considered a member in good standing if they owned a liquor store, but didn't drink? Or that they could own a strip club as long as they didn't watch?

C'mon if you can serve liquor, you can observe your employees performing there services.....right?

[Carl62]

C'mon if you can serve liquor, you can observe your employees performing there services.....right?

I didn't ask anything about observing your employees. I asked if you can OWN these establishments (liquor stores and strip clubs) and still be considered a member in good standing.

[hordak]

I didn't ask anything about observing your employees. I asked if you can OWN these establishments (liquor stores and strip clubs) and still be considered a member in good standing.

Sure.

I don't recall a "Is your jobs such that it would allow others to break the personal covenants you have entered into"

In a TR, Priesthood, or Baptismal interview

[RipplecutBuddha]

here again, we're getting to the point of seeing how close to the edge of the cliff we can get.

While it may not be specifically prohibited, what would you think of someone else in such a position? What if it were your bishop? What if it were your spouse?

The avoidance of the very appearance of evil is a real consideration to be made, and should remind us of why we're even here in the first place.

If such a job, bartending, liquor store, is all you can find, then that's between you and God.

[MarginOfError]

here again, we're getting to the point of seeing how close to the edge of the cliff we can get.

While it may not be specifically prohibited, what would you think of someone else in such a position? What if it were your bishop? What if it were your spouse?

The avoidance of the very appearance of evil is a real consideration to be made, and should remind us of why we're even here in the first place.

If such a job, bartending, liquor store, is all you can find, then that's between you and God.

Which is exactly the point that we've been making...that it isn't for us to judge. This is something to be dealt with on the individual level.

[AmyKate88]

I think it should fall into the category of "last resort" job. I would rather freeze my butt off collecting carts from the parking lot of Costco than serve people an addictive, destructive substance that can very well ruin their lives.

[Guest]

I think it should fall into the category of "last resort" job. I would rather freeze my butt off collecting carts from the parking lot of Costco than serve people an addictive, destructive substance that can very well ruin their lives.

Costco sells alcohol and cigarettes.

Okay, okay, I'm just picking on you. I know what you're saying... :D:D

[coyotemoon722]

This is an interesting discussion on the points of view surrounding the issue. I'll just throw out, with regards to the original question asked, "what do people think.....", well, I think it is not for me to judge.

Yeah, I wasn't really asking for judgement per say; more or less what your opinion on the matter is in relation to Gospel Doctrine, the WoW, and other such LDS doctrines. And while you're not obliged to judge, I feel that it's beneficial to give sound advice if it is within one's power. Healthy discussions on the subject help you grow as a person spiritually as well, and allow you insight into what Christ would want.

With that said, I like the discussion that's taking place. I feel that people have a wide range of interesting opinions on the subject.

[Bini]

I'm just wondering where one draws the line? Aren't you a hypocrite if you disagree with a certain lifestyle and yet you're willing to promote it (serving drinks or introducing strippers)? I just don't see the logic in it. And I'm not pointing fingers. My husband and I are hardly LDS by our own lifestyle. But I'd have to agree with many others on here that have said it's best to "avoid it" if you're a firmly against it.

[KCGrant]

Boy, a classic moral dilemma. I suppose everyone's entitled to live judgment-free and do as they feel they need to. But I'm reminded of the futility of trying to teach your kids by your words alone and not your actions.

[Carl62]

I'm just wondering where one draws the line? Aren't you a hypocrite if you disagree with a certain lifestyle and yet you're willing to promote it (serving drinks or introducing strippers)?

Bingo!! The best and most accurate statement on this thread yet!!!

[Moksha]

I am somewhat of a rebel. I bought some Vodka Cream Spaghetti Sauce today at the store. I betcha the girl at the checkstand was LDS. I was an LDS buyer. Local store management at Smiths are probably Mormons.

So who is culpable and who needs to speak with their Bishop about this spaghetti sauce? Not I, since the Bishop would probably look at me as a nut for even mentioning such a thing.

[lydlou]

my 2 cents. LDS member ownig a bar? not cool. if ur a convert who owned the bar first sell it, do something else, resturant maby? LDS working in a bar? maby if its the ONLY job going(itf ya think it may bee the only job going ask around the ward first ya might be suprised) if youre a convert already working there do not quit until you find another source of income- unless its a strip club leave that one imediatly.

thought i'd anser from the perspective of a new convert, who still fills the coffee machine at night for my non member husband when hes home.(its his agency,and a wifes job, but thats a subject for another thread.)

[Drac]

This is a very interesting topic. I first read the title and thought, "Oh, that's wrong, a member shouldn't be a bartender." But after thinking about it a bit it made me think about my father. He was the U.S. military attaché in Switzerland and hosted dinners for attachés from other countries. He served alcohol at those dinners. Did I think badly of it as a teenager? No. He wasn't drinking, and it often led to many discussions about the gospel. I thought it was very fitting for a representative from the United States military to be a member of a distinctly american religion.

As long as they're keeping their covenants I don't see anything wrong with a member being a bartender. Sure it would probably be preferred for them not to be, and has been mentioned definitely not in a strip club. I don't see that being any different than a member being a store clerk where they sell tobacco and alcohol products.

[bytor2112]

What about owning a "medical" marijuana store....like "Igrow" or some of the other marijuana providors in Calli? Ok or.......???

[Wingnut]

This is a very interesting topic. I first read the title and thought, "Oh, that's wrong, a member shouldn't be a bartender." But after thinking about it a bit it made me think about my father. He was the U.S. military attaché in Switzerland and hosted dinners for attachés from other countries. He served alcohol at those dinners. Did I think badly of it as a teenager? No. He wasn't drinking, and it often led to many discussions about the gospel. I thought it was very fitting for a representative from the United States military to be a member of a distinctly american religion.

My dad was visiting me this last weekend. He travels a lot for business -- maybe 2 weeks a month. He's a convert of 36 (I think) years, and everyone he works with knows he doesn't drink. He's much more of a morning person than a night person, but also frequently has to wine and dine clients or bigwigs. He ends up staying up way later than he likes to because he's the designated driver. We were talking the other night about credit cards and card benefits. He gets airline miles up the wazoo with all his flying and business expenses -- he picked up a $500 drink tab last week because no one else cares, so he figured he might as well get the benefits when his company is doing the reimbursing anyway. But like your dad, mine often finds himself in the situation of being in drinking company, and often having to host it.

[coyotemoon722]

You mean like JW Marriott?? There's a building named after him at BYU.

Who basically said that he couldn't survive in the hotel business without a bar.

Funny, that's the example I thought of when I first started debating the topic on my head. It's probably true unfortunately, at least on the level that he has.

It's definitely an interesting debate to be had. Do we let the times we live in dictate our actions? Every action you commit has at least some type of result to it, whether you are acutely aware of that result, or whether it happened indirectly from your action.

[Blackmarch]

Topic.

i'd try to avoid that as a job unless there was absolutely no other option.

[Churchmouse]

Years ago in a different Ward we had a missionary whose father owned a carryout. He had owned the business for years before joining the Church. It was his livelihood. His home Stake had no problem with it. His father had a Temple recommend.

[Kenny]

Topic.

When I first join the church 23 years ago, understanding and excepting the word of wisdom, not just the letter but the spirit of the law, asked my high priest, high councilman home teaching companion, innocently, how it was possible that a member of the church, even serving on the high council could not only run but own a pub. My companion could not give me an answer, perhaps because he was unaware of it. The member was released from his calling shortly afterwards and his daughter then went on a hate campaign against me that still exist to this day.

People have their agency and can make decisions business or otherwise either way but for me and mine we’ll keep clear of pubs especially earning a living from them.

if LDS cannot set an example then who can?

[need4peace]

My two bobs worth from downunder -

I know for me I couldn't and wouldn't sell alcohol, cigarettes, tea or coffee etc because I know it would simply violate the Word of Wisdom. I made a covenant at Baptism to follow our Saviour and each Sunday when I take the Sacrament I renew that covenant.

Since reading the question posed on this thread I started thinking about the various answers and wondered if one of our leaders had an answer on the subject too. I did some research and found this quote (below) by Henry B Eyring in the "I Have a Question" section of the Ensign -

His answer is plain and simple -

Hope it helps

“I Have a Question,” Ensign, Apr 1977, 30–33

Should a Latter-day Saint sell a product when its use violates the Word of Wisdom?

Henry B. Eyring, “I Have a Question,” Ensign, Apr. 1977, 30

Henry B. Eyring, president of Ricks College, Rexburg, Idaho The advice from Church leaders of this dispensation has been in the direction of discouraging Church members from “handling, selling, or serving” alcoholic beverages. (General Handbook of Instructions, 1976, p. 104.) They have said less concerning a multitude of related questions: Should we grow hops? Sell tobacco? Coffee?

If I were faced with such a decision, two questions might help me make my choices. They are simple ones: What is my overriding objective? What business alternatives can I create?

First, I have no hope of acting wisely if my first and overriding objective is to make money. But if my main motive is to please God, I will be sensitive to the Spirit as it warns me away from what would displease him. Once I have decided I want eternal life more than business success, I will have crossed the great gulf between wanting to know what God would permit and trying to do what he would prefer. That will make me look for different products and services from those I now offer that lead people to violate the Word of Wisdom.

Second, the alternatives are seldom as stark as “Either I sell a product whose use violates the Word of Wisdom or I go broke.” In those few cases where that must be the choice, my obligation to investors, to business associates, to employees, and to my family may force me to sell the harmful product. But almost always, the “go broke” alternative is a false one. For instance, space occupied by beer in a store wouldn’t be left vacant if beer were not sold. It would be used for selling something else; and, with creative skill and faith, the alternative product might be sold in sufficient volume to offset much of the sales lost on beer. This same pursuit of creative alternatives in choosing what to plant might reduce the farmer’s financial sacrifice as he moved away from harmful crops.

The only mistake as bad as making the wrong choice ourselves would be to judge someone else’s heart by his product line or by what he grows. We don’t know if he wants to please the Lord more than to get profits. We don’t know whether he has tried to create alternatives. We don’t know whether his lack of power in his company or his obligations to others allow him no chance to try alternative products. The only heart we know is ours. And that’s the one we can examine, and change, if it needs it. Imperfect ourselves, we cannot always make perfect choices in an imperfect world, but we can have perfect intent to please God. We can make constant efforts to conduct our business both to please God and meet our business obligations. When we can’t do both, we’ll feel uncomfortable. And if someone could explain away that discomfort, we’d have lost something precious.

The Doctrine and Covenants, section 58, verses 26–28, seems to me to describe the opportunity this type of choice presents us: “For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; …

“Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;

“For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward.” [D&C 58:26–28] LDS.org - Ensign Article - I Have a Question