Trinity

[Maureen]

Coming from an LDS perspective, it certainly becomes very difficult to conceive of a completely immaterial divine spirit as Our Father in Heaven. The whole idea makes Him seem a lot less personal and a lot more distant.

Faded, how do you perceive the Holy Ghost? I know he is not a father figure but he still exists without a body.

[bytebear]

Faded,

From a trinitatrian point of view seperating the persons into differing beings means that it was a lesser God who atoned for us. It was no longer God himself dieing for us but a lesser, stand in, proxy, second but not God himself. It was the 2IC not the CEO.

Now, I have heard this before, but how does one explain verses where Jesus himself lowers his status in relation to the Father?

[WillowTheWhisp]

I was just thinking - doesn't Jesus tell us we should worship the Father, not him? Also, in Gethsemane Jesus submitted himself to the will of his Father.

[Jason_J]

Now, I have heard this before, but how does one explain verses where Jesus himself lowers his status in relation to the Father?

Trinitarians see this as referring to Jesus' incarnation, His human nature. Trinitarians believe in something called the "hypostatic union". The hypostatic union refers to the belief that when Jesus incarnated (came to the earth), He had two natures: divine and human. He was fully divine and fully human. So, when the Bible refers to the Father being greater than the Son, Trinitarians interpret this as referring to Jesus' human nature, His incarnation.

[Maureen]

I was just thinking - doesn't Jesus tell us we should worship the Father, not him? Also, in Gethsemane Jesus submitted himself to the will of his Father.

I know of no such scripture. Even LDS leaders have said that Mormons worship Jesus.

M.

[prisonchaplain]

I was just thinking - doesn't Jesus tell us we should worship the Father, not him? Also, in Gethsemane Jesus submitted himself to the will of his Father.

No question we should worship the Father. But, the Son too...Revelation 5 is a beautiful seen of heavenly worship for the Lamb of God. Hebrews 1:6 has the Father commanding angels to worship Jesus, and verse 8 has him addressing his son as God, and saying Jesus' kingdom would last forever. So, it's appropriate to worship Jesus. When Thomas does so, saying "My Lord and my God," Jesus commends him for finally getting it.

[Faded]

Faded, how do you perceive the Holy Ghost? I know he is not a father figure but he still exists without a body.

True, but the Holy Ghost still has human form as a Spirit. Not a physical form exactly, but if you were to see the Holy Ghost in person, you would see that his spiritual essence is in the shape of a man. It is because he is a spirit that he can be the medium of communication between God and man.

The LDS understanding of the Holy Ghost is kind of like the Sun. The Sun doesn't have to be present for you to feel it's light. Likewise, feeling the Holy Ghost's guidance does not require him to be physically present.

This is also true of God the Father and Jesus Christ, but for some reason, the Holy Ghost is better suited for this role because he doesn't yet have a body.

[JessicaHarper]

For trinitarians, God is all-power, everywhere-present, and all-knowing. He is absolutely one. He exists as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--three persons, co-equal, co-eternal, and absolutely alone in their nature and position. In contrast, humans are mortal beings, created by God out of nothing. Faithful ones will be exalted, but their eternity is future, not past. They will never be what God is, for his eternity alone is both past and future.

Wow! Now, that sums it up for me. Wonderfully put.

[bytebear]

Sometimes non-Mormons think because we believe Jesus is our brother, that his position is not unique, but it is. he was God from the beginning (i.e. eternally) and was/is the only perfect son of God (in addition to being the only begotten son). He is the only name under heaven by which we can be saved. And even if we are exalted and share in His glory, we will never be saviors, never be atoners of sin. He is absolutely alone in his nature and position.

[Islander]

We tend to spend a lot of time debating with those that ONLY seek to argue about what they think we stand for without the intent of actually learning. I know what I know with absolute and complete certainty and I do not expect others to comprehend. My commitment to the Gospel of Christ has very little room for theo-sophical arguments.

I will not flinch in the face of sacrifice, hesitate before the adversary, negotiate with whom has declared to be my enemy, or ponder at the pool of popularity. I will not give up, shut up or lay low until I have given my all for the cause and the work of Christ, the Lord. I will preach till all know, work till He stops me and go until He comes. And when He return for His own, I will bow to Him in humility but soaring in the happiness of my heart; for He will recognize me. My stand had always been clear.

[Maureen]

We tend to spend a lot of time debating with those that ONLY seek to argue about what they think we stand for without the intent of actually learning....

Islander, are you sensing a spirit of argument in this thread?

M.

[Islander]

Islander, are you sensing a spirit of argument in this thread?

M.

I do not mean to "argue" as in "disputation." Rather in the most basic sense of the word: they attempt to "bring clarity or explain" to me the errors of my ways.

I did not quoted any one in particular but some obviously thought Isaiah 43 proves "we" are mistaken in our claim to inheritance of celestial royalty, exaltation and divinity. So their logic leads to their circular reasoning that thus we are not who we claim to be. I just wanted to state my position, for clarity sake.

[prisonchaplain]

Sometimes non-Mormons think because we believe Jesus is our brother, that his position is not unique, but it is. he was God from the beginning (i.e. eternally) and was/is the only perfect son of God (in addition to being the only begotten son). He is the only name under heaven by which we can be saved. And even if we are exalted and share in His glory, we will never be saviors, never be atoners of sin. He is absolutely alone in his nature and position.

I'll confess that this post is confusing to me. You are right, mostly, that we do find Jesus less unique when we hear him called our brother, hear that he was an equal contender with Lucifer, and hear that He, and his Father, were once as we are. But I am sincere in trying to understand the doctrine fully.

BTW: MEMO TO ISLANDER--it may well be that many get into LDS-Trinitarian debates, and it only leads to contention. However, imho, this thread has not been like that. We're just trying to get the full understanding, so we can at least be intelligent about it. I've been here over four years now--it would be a shame if I misrepresented your teachings out of ignorance, no?

[Faded]

I'll confess that this post is confusing to me. You are right, mostly, that we do find Jesus less unique when we hear him called our brother, hear that he was an equal contender with Lucifer, and hear that He, and his Father, were once as we are. But I am sincere in trying to understand the doctrine fully.

First of all, you know that we believe that all of us are eternal beings, so that should not be a major hurdle. Secondly, you already believe that Lucifer was an angel of God who rebelled, was cast out of Heaven, and became Satan -- would I be correct in that assumption?

Now if we're at least on the same page there, then it's pretty simple. We don't consider angels to be a different species. Angels and humans are the same species in the LDS view. And so a fallen angel like Lucifer is a begotten spirit child of God, just like the rest of us.

He does seem to have been important. The title, "Son of the Morning" seems to indicate as much. But that doesn't make him equal with Jesus.

And when he rebelled, he became Satan -- a being whose only goal is to twart God at every turn and make mankind miserable wherever possible. It is almost inconceivable that one of the greatest of God's children could become such a despicable creature, but then again, it is equally inconceivable that a personal friend and Apostle of Jesus Christ would betray him to be killed. The parallels with Judas Iscariot are many.

MOSES 4:1

1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

Jesus Christ was always going to be the Messiah. Lucifer was trying through his silver-tongued craftiness to usurp that position. Jehovah (Jesus) was always intended to be the Messiah and the Savior.

And nice as Lucifer might have made his alternative plan sound, it never would have worked anyways.

Does that help PC?

Edited February 18, 2010 by Faded

[bytebear]

Whenever I hear the "Jesus was the sprit brother of Satan" I am always reminded of Cain and Abel. Just because one has a bad brother does not make you any less righteous.

[prisonchaplain]

Faded, your explanation that angels and humans are the same species clarifies a lot. Thank you. Sometimes one simple aspect unties the knot of confusion.

[AnthonyB]

If angels are the same kind of beings as men, then demons (eg Satan) are the same kind of beings as men. How does Demon posession as recorded in the NT work in LDS thinking? How do many multiple spirits live in people or pigs?

[s2artg]

From my understanding, demon possesion can happen when someone allows it to happen. This can be through sin, attitude, behavior, etc. I am not entirely sure how this works with multiple spirits as seen in the NT. Usually, if you are striving to live the commandments of God and are constantly seeking to repent and have the Holy Ghost with you, you will be fine. I'm no expert on this matter, but that is how I understand it. Hopefully someone can explain it better.

[Faded]

If angels are the same kind of beings as men, then demons (eg Satan) are the same kind of beings as men. How does Demon posession as recorded in the NT work in LDS thinking? How do many multiple spirits live in people or pigs?

I don't imagine it works any differently than you already understand it -- but there's the trick -- how does it work in your current understanding?

We would simply view it as a fallen spirit (with the same miserable state and vengeful goals as Satan) temporarily subjecting/possessing a body -- something they can never have for themselves. As has already been pointed out, in order for the fallen angels of Satan to possess your body, you would have to let them by some degree. This does not preclude them from exercising power over us in all cases, but it is a good general rule of thumb. You're not going to be possessed by devils over long periods of time unless you invited them in somehow.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Faded