Feds may be targeting Toyota

[Just_A_Guy]

Story seems a bit premature, but will confirm a lot of suspicions if it comes to pass.

[talisyn]

So the fact that these gas pedals were really sticking, and enough of them were sticking to be worrisome, means the gov't should look the other way?

Kudos to Toyota for jumping on the problem so fast. My theory is that someone tried to use cheaper parts to bring the cost of the vehicles down and it bit them in the butt.

[Just_A_Guy]

If Toyota's fixing the problem, I don't see much for government to do here in the way of hearings or congressional subpoenas. If there's a genuine suspicion that Toyota "pulled a Pinto" here, it seems to me we have a judicial process that's more than capable of handling that type of situation.

I worry that the Feds don't see a safety hazard so much as tens of thousands of un-unionized auto workers.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[Canuck Mormon]

Kudos to Toyota for jumping on the problem so fast. My theory is that someone tried to use cheaper parts to bring the cost of the vehicles down and it bit them in the butt.

Toyota only shut down production and stopped sales because the government forced them. Their fix, the shim, is a joke and won't correct the problem. Toyota has acted as if it was infaliable (sp?) and that nothing was wrong with their cars. It took a Police officer and his family to die before anything was done.

Here's a very good article about the problem

http://http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/why-toyota-must-replace-flawed-cts-gas-pedal-with-superior-denso-pedal/#more-343754

[Guest]

Dunno what that article is trying to say. A defect of this magnitude has to go into NHTSA investigations. It's pretty standard.

Remember the Ford/Firestone fiasco? Congress signed several bills because of that incident. Sen. McCain even introduced one of them, IIRC.

Before you can conclude that Toyota did everything it needed to do to follow NHTSA guidelines, an investigation first has to occur. And, before NHTSA can determine if they might need to tighten up some safety guidelines, they have to investigate first. Investigation is good in these types of situations. That's what we pay NHTSA and the US Consumer Protection agencies for...

Edited February 4, 2010 by anatess

[Just_A_Guy]

I did not know that, Canuck. Thanks.

Edit: On re-reading your article, Canuck, it illustrates technical problems with the "fix", but I don't see it saying that the recall was forced by the government. Wiki says it was initiated by Toyota "with assistance" from Fed agencies. Have you a better link?

Thanks.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[john doe]

Toyota is not the only car to ever have problems like this. For the owners and controllers of a couple domestic manufacturers to aim an investigation at a foreign manufacturer who also happens to be outselling them is cause to stop and consider whether it is warranted or not.

[Canuck Mormon]

Ok, so they may not have forced them, but it looks like they stonger suggested they do it. Here's a few more:

http://http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/03/business/global/03toyota.html?hp

http://http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/story/10673349/1/toyota-accused-of-hiding-graver-problems.html?cm_ven=YAHOO&cm_cat=FREE&cm_ite=NA

John, I know they are not the only company to have problems with this, but it seems like their attitude is one of arrogance and that they know best. To me, that is the bigger issue.

BTW~The government does own part of GM and Chrysler, but they are not the "controllers" of those companies. Each company has their own B.O.D.'s and the government only has 1 or 2 seats on each board. Far from "controlling" the company.

[Just_A_Guy]

BTW~The government does own part of GM and Chrysler, but they are not the "controllers" of those companies. Each company has their own B.O.D.'s and the government only has 1 or 2 seats on each board. Far from "controlling" the company.

Government does not directly and unilaterally control GM/Chrysler, but it does have a vested interest in seeing those companies do well and their competitors do poorly. And the ruling party's UAW constituency would love to see Toyota sweat.

Hopefully the DOT will act independently of these pressures. But I'm skeptical.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[Palerider]

The Gov't get involved in something....not a chance....just blame Bushie....:)

[Guest]

Toyota is not the only car to ever have problems like this. For the owners and controllers of a couple domestic manufacturers to aim an investigation at a foreign manufacturer who also happens to be outselling them is cause to stop and consider whether it is warranted or not.

But then, Ford was investigated the same way when it was their recalls that flooded the news stations.

I'm just saying, there are valid things to complain about this government. I don't think this is one of them. If you pick your battles wisely, you have a better chance of gaining credibility.

[boyando]

Honda now has it recalls. But not in this country.

Honda recalls thousands of cars amid fire fears - Telegraph

Is there no end to the evil reaches of this administration (sarcasm).

[Blackmarch]

...

John, I know they are not the only company to have problems with this, but it seems like their attitude is one of arrogance and that they know best. To me, that is the bigger issue.

....

heh sounds like a lot of big companies.

[boyando]

If Toyota's fixing the problem, I don't see much for government to do here in the way of hearings or congressional subpoenas. If there's a genuine suspicion that Toyota "pulled a Pinto" here, it seems to me we have a judicial process that's more than capable of handling that type of situation.

I worry that the Feds don't see a safety hazard so much as tens of thousands of un-unionized auto workers.

I'm not sure if the Feds are involved in escalating Toyota's problems, by exaggerating the effect of the sticky peddle, visa vie,a willing media. I do believe, like you, that the current administrtion looks at companies like Toyota as source for Union jobs and not a company producing a product for, dare I say it, ..........profit.

Were I do disagree with you, friend Guy, be it ever so slightly, is in your pairing of Toyota and the Pinto. It was Audi that had a proplem with the accelerator pedal, termed "sudden acceleration".

Here is what Wikipedia had to say about the Pinto's safety problems;

The model became a focus of a major scandal when it was alleged that the car's design allowed its fuel tank to be easily damaged in the event of a rear-end collision which sometimes resulted in deadly fires and explosions. Critics argued that the vehicle's lack of a true rear bumper as well as any reinforcing structure between the rear panel and the tank meant that in certain collisions, the tank would be thrust forward into the differential, which had a number of protruding bolts that could puncture the tank. This, and the fact that the doors could potentially jam during an accident (due to poor reinforcement) allegedly made the car less safe than its contemporaries.

Ford allegedly was aware of this design flaw but refused to pay for a redesign. Instead, it was argued, Ford decided it would be cheaper to pay off possible lawsuits for resulting deaths. Mother Jones magazine obtained the cost-benefit analysis that it said Ford had used to compare the cost of an $11 repair against the monetary value of a human life, in what became known as the Ford Pinto memo.] The characterization of Ford's design decision as gross disregard for human lives in favor of profits led to significant lawsuits. While Ford was acquitted of criminal charges, it lost several million dollars and gained a reputation for manufacturing "the barbecue that seats four."

The NHTSA put pressure on Ford to recall the Pinto, motivated by public outcry and pressure from groups such as Ralph Nader's Center for Auto Safety. Initially the NHTSA did not feel there was sufficient evidence to demand a recall due to incidents of fire. The 27 deaths attributed to Pinto fires is the same number of deaths attributed to a transmission problem in the Pinto, which resulted in 180 total deaths in all Ford vehicles, and in 1974 the NHTSA ruled that the Pinto had no "recallable" problem.

Nevertheless, in 1978 Ford initiated a recall providing a dealer installable "safety kit" that installed plastic protective material over the offending sharp objects, negating the risk of tank puncture.

In 1981, an automobile accident that killed Lilly Gray and badly burned 13-year old Richard Grimshaw resulted in the court case Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Co., in which the California Court of Appeal for the Fourth Appellate District upheld compensatory damages of $2.5 million and punitive damages of $3.5 million against Ford, partially because Ford had been aware of the design defects before production but had decided against changing the design.

Due to the alleged engineering, safety, and reliability problems, Time magazine included the Pinto on its list of the fifty worst cars of all time.

However, a 1991 law review paper by Gary Schwartz claimed the case against the Pinto was less clear-cut than commonly supposed. The number who died in Pinto rear-impact fires, according to Schwartz, was well below the hundreds cited in contemporary news reports and closer to the twenty-seven recorded by a limited National Highway Traffic Safety Administration database. Given the Pinto's production figures (over 2 million built), this was not substantially worse than typical for the time. Schwartz argued that the car was no more fire-prone than other cars of the time, that its fatality rates were lower than comparably sized imported automobiles, and that the supposed "smoking gun" document that plaintiffs claimed showed Ford's callousness in designing the Pinto was actually a document based on National Highway Traffic Safety Administration regulations about the value of a human life rather than a document containing an assessment of Ford's potential tort liability.

I am not a fan of Ford's, but I do try to support the truth (even if it is the truth, as I see it) were ever I can. That didn't stop the media, like the magazine Motor Trend, form telling jokes like "what's the scariest feeling in the world? Sitting in a Pinto, at at train crossing, waiting for a train to pass, when you see a Audi coming at you in your rear view mirror'.

Funny as that may be, it shows how journalist like to topple the king of the hill. If only slightly more than doing a Democratic President's, bidding.

[Moksha]

The Gov't get involved in something....not a chance....just blame Bushie....:)

Makes you wonder if Cheney and Wolfowitz recommended shipping the Iraqis any of our cars with the exploding gas tanks.

[Palerider]

Makes you wonder if Cheney and Wolfowitz recommended shipping the Iraqis any of our cars with the exploding gas tanks.

Not a chance....Biden is taking all the credit now for everything ...:)

[john doe]

Makes you wonder if Cheney and Wolfowitz recommended shipping the Iraqis any of our cars with the exploding gas tanks.

Pintos? Seems to me there WAS a movie staring Charlie Sheen that included a bit about that. Or was that the bomb falling on Saddam sitting by the pool? Maybe I'm thinking of the one with Carey Elwes.

[Just_A_Guy]

On a sem-related note:

You know that guy in CA who said his Prius took off on him last week?

Evidence strongly suggests he's lying.

[boyando]

Me, I think the elitist, in Washington and in the press are targeting Toyota. But as always, they can't seem to rap their heads around human nature. If you are someone who would have bought a Toyota and now you are not, because of the recall, you will now go out and by a Honda, or a Mazda, or a Nissan, or even a Hundia before you by a Chevy.

I like Chevy's and think they are putting out some very nice cars. With out the government stepping in, G.M. would have declared bankruptcy, got out of some really bad union contracts and come out just fine, in the end. Instead, we got G.M. declaring bankruptcy and the government making sure that the unions were fine.

More On The $70 Total Labor Cost Per Hour For GM | Daily Markets

With all of the efforts to make it a leaner machine, G.M.'s cost per man hour is still $12.00 an hour more than Toyota's. But not to worry, we the tax payer will make sure that the unions get theirs. And the unions will make sure that politicians who are pro union, get the money they need for their campaigns.

Throw a party. Everyone wins but the tax payer and any one who thinks this is madness.

[Just_A_Guy]

NHTSB Preliminary Test Results: There's nothing wrong with your car. You just don't know the difference between the gas and the brake.

(Yeah, I'm over-simplifying a bit.)

[Hemidakota]

Story seems a bit premature, but will confirm a lot of suspicions if it comes to pass.

I have done enough automotive research in the past between 2003 to 2007 to know, Toyota is in serious trouble. Even the last American regional president stated the same. A lot cover up was being done back then and now beginning to surface. I know there is a lot of PR effort to prevent the sale slides, but, in reality, the quality stated is nothing more than subjective if done by JD Powers or even Consumer Report. The facts versus fiction lay with the amount of recalls per year. Being a former owner of Toyota vehicles, I know what is quality and what is not.

[Hemidakota]

Honda now has it recalls. But not in this country.

Honda recalls thousands of cars amid fire fears - Telegraph

Is there no end to the evil reaches of this administration (sarcasm).

Google has a wonderful spider engine that can sift through any daily hits for automotive recalls. You will be surprised the amount of different brands that are recalled world-wide.

Link: https://www.google.com/accounts/ServiceLogin?service=alerts&hl=en&gl=&continue=http://www.google.com/alerts/manage%3Fhl%3Den%26gl%3D&followup=http://www.google.com/alerts/manage%3Fhl%3Den%26gl%3D&nui=1

Someone asked me to put together the most problematic North America automotive brands for 2010 (NHTSA data for January to May 2010). I suspect it was more to insult Toyota for their usual claim quality. It never fails to see both Toyota and Honda in the top six spots for the last six years.

This year research, reveals, Toyota is number one, followed by Honda as number 2…beating out Ford. Ford took over Chevy position for the last couple of years (08 & 09) as the most problematic brand in North America.

Current analysis given back 07, three Japanese brands increasing build rate and constant model changes will bring the quality of the vehicles down to a point that it will surpassed (quality issues) some of the American built vehicles. Today, we see it happening. Former North America President, Jim Press of Toyota, stated the same facts.

Edited July 14, 2010 by Hemidakota

[bytor2112]

Toyota best selling car in the world....known for reliability and quality. Obama bails out/buys Chrysler.....Toyota's oddly enough are being reported as unsafe...coincidence? :) And here I thought the Prius was the greatest liberal car ever...except for the Yugo of course....and maybe the little smart electric looking your sure to die in accident looking cars.

[Hemidakota]

right...sorry! Not being bias here but your post made me laugh.

[Hemidakota]

Toyota best selling car in the world....known for reliability and quality. Obama bails out/buys Chrysler.....Toyota's oddly enough are being reported as unsafe...coincidence? :) And here I thought the Prius was the greatest liberal car ever...except for the Yugo of course....and maybe the little smart electric looking your sure to die in accident looking cars.

Let you know, Toyota is still under a global lawsuit of patent infringements with the Prius (America and Germany).