God's Omnipotence

[lost87]

I've been thinking pretty much all day about the thread "did we choose our own weakness'" and all the posts on it...and somehow thinking for me always turns into a swarm of questions...I personally have no idea if we chose what our weaknesses (not trials) would be, I can't even begin to fathom that concept for some reason, but there are soooooo many questions now! Generally speaking, when I say "we" or "us", I kinda mean "I" and "me"...just trying to make it applicable to beings outside of myself :/

-If we didn't choose our weaknesses, did the Lord know exactly what they would be (i.e. lying, greed, sexual sin...just any degree of what one would consider a "weakness")?

-If He did know what our weaknesses would be, did He send us here expecting us realize the weakness and overcome it without giving in, or did He know that some of us would give in to the weaknesses?

-If He did know that we would give in, did He know in advance how deep we'd get in sin? Has He known all along exactly what our sins would be, are, and will be in the future?

this one I can't really generalize...but....

-If He has known all along how much I'd mess everything up and how lost I'd get, then does that mean that any promises in my patriarchal blessing are still possible if I let Him help me turn things around, or were those things conditional on me not ever being in this situation?

-If he does know in advance what all of our sins will be, then does He already know if we will make it back to His presence again (i.e. celestial kingdom)?

-If He already knows if we'll make it or not, then could it be possible that not recieving guidance/answer to prayers/comfort is because He already knows that despite anything He could for us we will still choose Satan over Him? Not that He is giving up, but just that He already knows the result and there is no sense in continuing?

-If we are already set to lose everything, is that set in stone or is there something we can do to change it...is there still a chance to make the right choices and get back?

I guess all these questions boil down to the extent of the Lord's omnipotence...does He already know EXACTLY what we will do and where we will go, or is His knowledge of what will be dependent on our current path/choices and still flexible.....

Im sorry, that was A LOT of questions......IF anyone is still reading, feel free to ignore...I just needed to write it all out I guess. Thanks

[laconnaritchie]

the way it was explained to me, the lord does indeed know what our choices will be. it is for our own knowlege that we understand this is all we could do.so when the final judgement does come will except what we are given. does that make since?

[bytor2112]

I am sure the Lord knew and knows your nature...your strengths and weaknesses....you are an eternal being after all. He also sees beyond who you are....he sees who you can become. The key to all of this is agency....choice. He has given us some rules/commandments but ultimately, HE won't force, we have to choose. So, if we want to return home to live with Heavenly Father...it really is our decision.

[Drac]

-If we didn't choose our weaknesses, did the Lord know exactly what they would be (i.e. lying, greed, sexual sin...just any degree of what one would consider a "weakness")?

I don't believe we chose our weaknesses. Of course he knew. As it says in D&C 130:7 all things are before Him. Past, Present and Future.

-If He did know what our weaknesses would be, did He send us here expecting us realize the weakness and overcome it without giving in, or did He know that some of us would give in to the weaknesses?

He knows what all of us will do.

-If He did know that we would give in, did He know in advance how deep we'd get in sin? Has He known all along exactly what our sins would be, are, and will be in the future?

Yep.

-If He has known all along how much I'd mess everything up and how lost I'd get, then does that mean that any promises in my patriarchal blessing are still possible if I let Him help me turn things around, or were those things conditional on me not ever being in this situation?

If I recall correctly you are pretty young; and who is to say which parts of your life your blessing were specifically speaking of? The blessings of our patriarchal blessing are dependent on our faithfulness, but I'm willing to bet that you have enough of your life left to see those come to pass.

-If he does know in advance what all of our sins will be, then does He already know if we will make it back to His presence again (i.e. celestial kingdom)?

Yes.

-If He already knows if we'll make it or not, then could it be possible that not recieving guidance/answer to prayers/comfort is because He already knows that despite anything He could for us we will still choose Satan over Him? Not that He is giving up, but just that He already knows the result and there is no sense in continuing?

No. Why would he do that, as your loving Father?

-If we are already set to lose everything, is that set in stone or is there something we can do to change it...is there still a chance to make the right choices and get back?

There are instances in the scriptures where people are so wicked that they are destroyed to prevent them from continuing in sin (mostly civilizations). But from what I have read in your posts you are not lost; despite how you may feel at the moment. I know the Lord loves you and wants you to be happy and feel of his love.

I guess all these questions boil down to the extent of the Lord's omnipotence...does He already know EXACTLY what we will do and where we will go, or is His knowledge of what will be dependent on our current path/choices and still flexible.....

I think he sees the path we will choose, but also where we would go if we went on other paths.

The Lord knew what would happen to all of us in our lives. However it would not be just for us to be assigned to degrees of glory without us living our lives and make our choices. How do you think you'd feel if God just judged you on what he knows you would do without you experiencing your life and seeing for yourself the decisions you would make? Just my thoughts on the topic.

Edited February 6, 2010 by Drac

[RanMan]

I don't know if this will help, but my personal experience has been this:

I recieved my Patriarchal blessing at 16. It stated that the Lord had a mission for me and that I also promised a young lady in the pre-existence that I would marry her. I didn't serve a mission and was inactive for awhile. I spent 14 years as a single parent and thought - I blew it. All those promises are now gone for me.

However, I remarried a wonderful LDS woman who I feel so very strongly is that young lady I promised to marry in the pre-existence. It seems like she needed to be ready for me before that happened. And two years ago I got into family history. My family are converts, there has been no work done on our genealogy and I have been fortunate enough to do a great deal of it so far. I realize that this is the mission that was spoken of in my blessing.

So my point is that much of what existed in my blessing came about much later in life. when it happened I knew that it was the event that had been told to me years before.

Hope that helps.

:)

[tubaloth]

-If we didn't choose our weaknesses, did the Lord know exactly what they would be (i.e. lying, greed, sexual sin...just any degree of what one would consider a "weakness")?

Yes he knows. When he knows might be another question. Were there things in the pre-mortal life that would lead to some kind of weakness here? Or is it even farther back then that.

[quote[

-If He did know what our weaknesses would be, did He send us here expecting us realize the weakness and overcome it without giving in, or did He know that some of us would give in to the weaknesses?

He knew the point of this life is to overcome our weaknesses. Thats part of the stage of our development. That when we realize we have a weakness what do we do about it?

-If He did know that we would give in, did He know in advance how deep we'd get in sin? Has He known all along exactly what our sins would be, are, and will be in the future?

Yes. He knew we would Sin, thats why we have Jesus Christ.

-If He has known all along how much I'd mess everything up and how lost I'd get, then does that mean that any promises in my patriarchal blessing are still possible if I let Him help me turn things around, or were those things conditional on me not ever being in this situation?

I don't think anybody knows for sure. Your Patriarchal blessing is based of of faithfulness. Does that mean one sin we can't go back? I don't think so. I think there is a path of righteousness for all of us. We fall off that path, but I think we can get back on it. We might miss some things (blessings) but we can still get back on the path.

-If he does know in advance what all of our sins will be, then does He already know if we will make it back to His presence again (i.e. celestial kingdom)?

Yes, God knows the end from the beginning. He couldn't be in charge unless he knew this.

-If He already knows if we'll make it or not, then could it be possible that not recieving guidance/answer to prayers/comfort is because He already knows that despite anything He could for us we will still choose Satan over Him? Not that He is giving up, but just that He already knows the result and there is no sense in continuing?

God will always bless us for doing what is right and keeping the commandments. He is bound when we do what he says. Thats how he set it up. So no matter how far off the path we go, we can always come to him, no matter who we are, or where we are in life.

-If we are already set to lose everything, is that set in stone or is there something we can do to change it...is there still a chance to make the right choices and get back?

For us, and our knowledge there is always a chance. There hasn't been a final Judgment and we always have a chance to change and repent. But God knows whats going to happen. Nothing I do is going to change what he already knows.

does He already know EXACTLY what we will do and where we will go, or is His knowledge of what will be dependent on our current path/choices and still flexible.....

I guess God COULD see multiple paths. But he KNOWS which path your going to take. He knows when you are going to fall, when you are going to turn to Him. There might be a day when he shows you what those other paths are. But God isn't changing his mind. He knows!

[hordak]

The idea that God knows the future (our exact actions)borders on Predestination /Calvinism (imo) so i don't think so.

God knows, jenny will be raised by a crack addicted mother, turn tricks herself to make money, Get a brief glimps of his love but fall away and deny the holy spirit, the unpardonable sin.

Would he be Just if he knew this would pass yet still formed her and sent her through the trial knowing she would fail?

Would it be just to grant someone children (assuming he controls that) If he knew without a doubt that the family would not make it and have to live in separate kingdoms?

If we fail of our own accord it's understandable. If he knows the outcome, it doesn't interfere with free will. But if he knows the outcome it is not just, (or even have a purpose) to give the test. Particularly to those who will fail. If he know spirit x will fail (big time) I.E. Outer darkness (and i think oblivion) then the Just thing would be to not make spirit x in the first place.

[deseretgov]

I believe God knows all things. He knows who will make it and who wont. He must know everything to be God. But just because God knows what we will do that doesntmean we are forced to do that thing. God knows the result of our choices. He knows what we will choose. But we must still make those choices.

But just because God knows who will make it does not mean that He will give us blessings based on that. If God gave blessings only to those who would go to the celestial kingdom then He would be unjust.

[Seminarysnoozer]

A test is not a very good test if we haven't already been given the answers. If one is given a test on a subject that the person is not expected to know, that would be a horrible test. A test also cannot cover every aspect of one's knowledge in a given area. A good test is designed to cover key points of knowledge and to provide enough feedback to make a judgment about that person's proficiency. I think God uses that kind of information to put us in the right spot at the right time to make this experience meet all it was set out to do. This life is certainly not to test every aspect of our learning or intelligence ... we've all been dumbed way way down from our pre-existence state to make that a fair test. What we currently know and understand is a tiny tiny fraction of our learning before this life. We are here to gain experience and have enough of a test to show that we can keep our second estate and that is it. I don't think there was a choice of "weaknesses" because whatever the set of circumstances that allowed us to accomplish what we have to do here was probably a fairly well defined list for each of us. Just like one cant pick the curriculum to graduate from Medical School, so to speak. For each of us, there was a short list of "classes" (circumstances) that would allow us to get the most out of this experience based on our valiant actions to that point. It was never intended for us to take every class there is, just enough for God to justify our eternal existence.

Why does one person get this problem the other that? We don't know. All we know is that for every circumstance there is a way to show God that we are valiant and that we can keep our second estate ... nobody is set up for failure. And we are all set up for maximum success. That's the way I see it. :)

[bmy-]

Why must God be omnipotent? It complicates things IMO. If God is still experiencing new things.. that is new knowledge. An omnipotent being cannot learn and still be omnipotent. For example: Does God know what it is like to have more glory than he does now?

[deseretgov]

For example: Does God know what it is like to have more glory than he does now?

Can God know something that is unknowable? Can God make something to heavy for Him to lift?

We can do this all day.

[Justice]

God knows everything required to bring about the salvation of His children.

This must be truth. Dwell on this much of it and the other concerns go away.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Why must God be omnipotent? It complicates things IMO. If God is still experiencing new things.. that is new knowledge. An omnipotent being cannot learn and still be omnipotent. For example: Does God know what it is like to have more glory than he does now?

I completely agree. Glad there is someone else who thinks the way I do. I think one the things that aligns with that thought is the idea that God can express emotions. If God knows everything all the time than there would never be a change in emotion. Emotion, by definition, implies a sudden change in understanding. So we either have a God that is completely all knowing all the time or we have a God that can express emotion. I don't see how God can have both traits.

That is how I arrived at the same belief that God cannot know something has happened until it actually has happened. In other words, future glory is not the same thing as realized glory.

[Traveler]

I believe we all played a very important role in the “Pre-Existence”. We are told in scripture that G-d went through great lengths to make sure that we exercised agency. Ponder on that idea for a while. Two of the greatest elements involved in getting ready for mortal life were:

First is an exercise in agency.

Second to gain experience as a physical mortal; from which we could become like the Father.

I believe it is quite clear that our mortal existence was the result of knowledgeable and informed choices. We knew full well what we were getting into – even down to fine details. Each experience was and is a well thought out and carefully designed to each individual and a once in an eternity opportunity that encompassed every essential detail necessary for each individual to be crowned and honored with the very glory of the Father.

I believe that because of our individual understanding and required reliance and faith in G-d that many had fear and reservations that gave Lucifer opportunity to initiate war in the Kingdom of G-d. Unless we understood the details of our probation why would war in heaven even be possible?

Weakness in the eternal sense is not some individual lack of ability as we experiment with mortality. If we understand scripture the only real weakness we face is the inability to trust and rely on the G-dhead to be able to overcome any and all effects that mortal life and an experience with sin would have in creating scars and flaws in our eternal souls. Therefore, the only real disability would be our refusal to put “self” aside and humbly accept G-d’s direction despite any and all opposition and temptation to seek our other sources for our trust (worship).

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Weakness in the eternal sense is not some individual lack of ability as we experiment with mortality. If we understand scripture the only real weakness we face is the inability to trust and rely on the G-dhead to be able to overcome any and all effects that mortal life and an experience with sin would have in creating scars and flaws in our eternal souls. Therefore, the only real disability would be our refusal to put “self” aside and humbly accept G-d’s direction despite any and all opposition and temptation to seek our other sources for our trust (worship).

The Traveler

I find it interesting that all of our 'weakness' comes from this mortal body and yet we are told we need the body. In other words, we are given something and then told to ignore it. I think it's easy to forget that who we really are is our spirit, the body is a covering to the spirit and in particular in this existence it REALLY covers the spirit. And yet, many people identify themselves with their physical bodies, think of the professional athlete or the beautiful actress or singer, his/her whole life surrounds the physical body even though that's not who they really are. Some aspects of body function are easily confused with spiritual talents, like a mathematician or the creative artist. Just like the bodies of idiot savants, think of Kim Peak, some of our talents like in his case incredible memory, are tied into his flawed body (he had a deformed brain, no corpus collosum). So, in that sense we really can't separate what some of us call talents from flaws or weaknesses only in the fact that they both come from this body.

I think this is why, in part, Moses said, after he saw the whole picture, said man is nothing.

[Blackmarch]

I've been thinking pretty much all day about the thread "did we choose our own weakness'" and all the posts on it...and somehow thinking for me always turns into a swarm of questions...I personally have no idea if we chose what our weaknesses (not trials) would be, I can't even begin to fathom that concept for some reason, but there are soooooo many questions now! Generally speaking, when I say "we" or "us", I kinda mean "I" and "me"...just trying to make it applicable to beings outside of myself :/

-If we didn't choose our weaknesses, did the Lord know exactly what they would be (i.e. lying, greed, sexual sin...just any degree of what one would consider a "weakness")?

-If He did know what our weaknesses would be, did He send us here expecting us realize the weakness and overcome it without giving in, or did He know that some of us would give in to the weaknesses?

-If He did know that we would give in, did He know in advance how deep we'd get in sin? Has He known all along exactly what our sins would be, are, and will be in the future?

this one I can't really generalize...but....

-If He has known all along how much I'd mess everything up and how lost I'd get, then does that mean that any promises in my patriarchal blessing are still possible if I let Him help me turn things around, or were those things conditional on me not ever being in this situation?

-If he does know in advance what all of our sins will be, then does He already know if we will make it back to His presence again (i.e. celestial kingdom)?

-If He already knows if we'll make it or not, then could it be possible that not recieving guidance/answer to prayers/comfort is because He already knows that despite anything He could for us we will still choose Satan over Him? Not that He is giving up, but just that He already knows the result and there is no sense in continuing?

-If we are already set to lose everything, is that set in stone or is there something we can do to change it...is there still a chance to make the right choices and get back?

I guess all these questions boil down to the extent of the Lord's omnipotence...does He already know EXACTLY what we will do and where we will go, or is His knowledge of what will be dependent on our current path/choices and still flexible.....

Im sorry, that was A LOT of questions......IF anyone is still reading, feel free to ignore...I just needed to write it all out I guess. Thanks

My take is that God knows every possible variation of action and consequence and knows what he will do for it.

[/$.02]

[lost87]

thank you all for your respomses, they have brought up some very interesting ideas and opinions.

Traveler-

I think that you are correct in your explanation of the pre-existance...my Patriarchal blessing spends a lot of time telling me who I was before this life, the things I did...I guess that is part of what scares me. If it is correct than I have taken a HUGE step back from who I was then and who I am now. My spiritual strength and my talents and abilities come no where near where they supposedly were...I should be that same person now, but I am so terribly far away from it and it doesn't seem possible to get there. I just feel like I am the opposite person of who I supposedly was then

[bmy-]

Can God know something that is unknowable? Can God make something to heavy for Him to lift?

We can do this all day.

Exactly.

[Traveler]

thank you all for your respomses, they have brought up some very interesting ideas and opinions.

Traveler-

I think that you are correct in your explanation of the pre-existance...my Patriarchal blessing spends a lot of time telling me who I was before this life, the things I did...I guess that is part of what scares me. If it is correct than I have taken a HUGE step back from who I was then and who I am now. My spiritual strength and my talents and abilities come no where near where they supposedly were...I should be that same person now, but I am so terribly far away from it and it doesn't seem possible to get there. I just feel like I am the opposite person of who I supposedly was then

That you have recognized our spiritual nature and our physical nature as being opposits looks to me that you are far more intellignet than you give yourself credit. That you realize this tells me you are much closer to achieveing what mortality offers than you realize. I would suggest that your next step is not so difficult as you are making it out to be.

The Traveler

[JudoMinja]

I think of God's omnipotence in this way: Omnipotence means all-knowing. He knows FAR more than we do. When we are children, our parents appear to us as omnipotent beings. They seem to know everything- until we learn enough to realize they don't. As we are all spirit children of God, our relationship with him is much the same, except if/when we ever reach an equal level as him, instead of discovering He doesn't know everything, we will discover that he does.

To recognize that he is omnipotent does not make him any less devine or uncaring. Think of this simple scenario: A parent tells a child not to touch the stove because it is hot. The parent KNOWS that the child is going to touch the stove anyway. Does the parent stop the child? No. He/she recognizes that the best way for the child to learn is to go ahead and touch it. After the child does so, the parent comforts the child and shows him/her how to treat the burn and explains again why it is important not to touch the stove- it's hot, you'll get hurt.

God works the same way with us. He KNOWS the choices we will make. He KNOWS we will be hurt by them. But he also KNOWS that we will learn from those choices and the ensuing hurt and he hopes that we will be open to this learning so that we can draw closer to him instead of becoming bitter and rejecting it.

[bmy-]

I think of God's omnipotence in this way: Omnipotence means all-knowing. He knows FAR more than we do. When we are children, our parents appear to us as omnipotent beings. They seem to know everything- until we learn enough to realize they don't. As we are all spirit children of God, our relationship with him is much the same, except if/when we ever reach an equal level as him, instead of discovering He doesn't know everything, we will discover that he does.

Except the trait of all-knowing would be omniscience and not omnipotence. I don't think people fully grasp what omnipotence is.. the common definition is to being able to do anything one chooses to do. Yes, that's right.. being able to do anything.

[Justice]

"That one chooses to do" is the key. God fits this definition.

[Hemidakota]

I've been thinking pretty much all day about the thread "did we choose our own weakness'" and all the posts on it...and somehow thinking for me always turns into a swarm of questions...I personally have no idea if we chose what our weaknesses (not trials) would be, I can't even begin to fathom that concept for some reason, but there are soooooo many questions now! Generally speaking, when I say "we" or "us", I kinda mean "I" and "me"...just trying to make it applicable to beings outside of myself :/

-If we didn't choose our weaknesses, did the Lord know exactly what they would be (i.e. lying, greed, sexual sin...just any degree of what one would consider a "weakness")?

-If He did know what our weaknesses would be, did He send us here expecting us realize the weakness and overcome it without giving in, or did He know that some of us would give in to the weaknesses?

-If He did know that we would give in, did He know in advance how deep we'd get in sin? Has He known all along exactly what our sins would be, are, and will be in the future?

this one I can't really generalize...but....

-If He has known all along how much I'd mess everything up and how lost I'd get, then does that mean that any promises in my patriarchal blessing are still possible if I let Him help me turn things around, or were those things conditional on me not ever being in this situation?

-If he does know in advance what all of our sins will be, then does He already know if we will make it back to His presence again (i.e. celestial kingdom)?

-If He already knows if we'll make it or not, then could it be possible that not recieving guidance/answer to prayers/comfort is because He already knows that despite anything He could for us we will still choose Satan over Him? Not that He is giving up, but just that He already knows the result and there is no sense in continuing?

-If we are already set to lose everything, is that set in stone or is there something we can do to change it...is there still a chance to make the right choices and get back?

I guess all these questions boil down to the extent of the Lord's omnipotence...does He already know EXACTLY what we will do and where we will go, or is His knowledge of what will be dependent on our current path/choices and still flexible.....

Im sorry, that was A LOT of questions......IF anyone is still reading, feel free to ignore...I just needed to write it all out I guess. Thanks

If an owner of a theater keeps hashing the same play but with different actors at different times, the probability is there to determine whom should fill what role and the results would be exactly as seen before. Yet, we have our agency to choose for ourselves what paths to follow.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Can God know something that is unknowable? Can God make something to heavy for Him to lift?

We can do this all day.

It is comforting to me to know that God has purpose in his creation more than just doing it because he has nothing else to do or on a whim or for entertainment which is what some people in this world believe. I think if one can understand how a God can be all knowing and yet at the same time there is value to obtaining more glory and that He gets something out of us obtaining glory that He didn't have before, that changes our relationship with God.

So, to ask the question whether God knows what its like to have more glory than He already does? Is way different than asking those other silly questions.

[marts1]

Omnipotence may not mean what you think. For example can God make something exist from nothing, or does God follow laws and if so, can He break them? I think what is important is that God will always know more then mortal's up until we become as He is. Also we are actually givin weakness's that we might be humble. It was lack of humility that caused Lucifer to fall.