Noah


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And it came to pass, as the voice was still speaking, Moses cast his eyes and beheld the earth, yea, even all of it; and there was not a particle of it which he did not behold, discerning it by the spirit of God. (Moses 1:27)

They knew the earth was spherical for sure.

Regards,

Vanhin

Seeing every particle of the Earth would be more suggestive of viewing a flat Earth from space. The only thing that would be missing is the Giant Turtle*** underneath who is supporting the whole thing on its back.

***Some prefer a World Serpent or World Elephant for this task. I pose the question, "Why not a World Penguin?".

:)

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This is what happens when we attempt to square current scientific understanding with what we find in the scriptures, and I find it disappointing and sad every time.

The scriptures have never been intended to be used as a scientific guide to our history. It has been intended to be used as a spiritual guide to our history, present state, and future potetial. Of the two, which do you find more useful?

"We are not physical beings busy having spiritual experiences. Rather, we are spiritual beings busy having physical experiences."

I forget who said that, but it wasn't me. All the same it resonates with me whenever this type of argument comes up.

We are seeking, and correctly so, to gain a greater understanding of what the acutal conditions of the flood were....How did it happen? What was it like on the ark? How many animals really did get put on the ark? These are all valid and important questions....but also totally unanswerable. There is no scientific, or even logical method of gaining a full understanding of how it worked.

There are several instances of this happening throughout the scriptures. They're called miracles. How did Jesus peform his miracles? What about Moses, or Elijah, or any of the other prophets that did what they did?

If you aren't willing to accept "By the power of God" as a valid answer, then any further discussion will ultimately end in what has already happened; bitter arguments, tangental jabs at other posters, and most importantly, a loss of the Spirit.

We cannot answer all the questions about the flood, because we don't have all the facts surrounding the event. We cannot even accurately determine how many people attended President Obama's inaguration, and that was only a year ago.

We must remember the limitations of human nature, the corrosive effects of time upon recorded history, and the severe holes in what we have managed to preserve of our history.

More importantly we must remember the actual purpose of why we're here, and what we need to accomplish in order to fulfill our potential. The questions surrounding the flood will be answered in the due time of God. As of right now, the particulars of the event itself beyond what we now know are of no eternal importance to us. There are more important issues to worry about than this. If it were otherwise, God would have revealed it to us.

The flood happened. There are eternal lessons and principles that we need to learn from it that have significant importance to us spiritually. These are the reasons the story is in the bible. These are the things we need to learn....not how Noah managed to get all the animals on board...not even necessarily where it all happened.

There's nothing at all wrong with saying "Right now, I just don't know.", because right now, nobody does.

Edited by RipplecutBuddha
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One of the sad things about being too insistent on either global/local flood, is how it affects members. I've known several kids grow up with a very literalistic reading of the scriptures. Once they get to college, however, they see the problems between religion and science, and feel they must choose between them. They only see it as an either/or, rather than choose both/neither.

I've seen many leave Christianity over such issues. If science shows there was no global flood, then the Bible is wrong. And if the child has been taught sola scriptura and an overly literalistic reading, there is no third choice but only to reject either science or religion.

This holds true for converts and lifetime members, as well. When members believe that prophets are infallible, and then find that they are human, many lose their testimonies of living prophets. We need to teach our members reality, which is that we understand the scriptures as they are given, whether literal or figurative. Their main purpose is not to teach us history or geology, but to teach us saving concepts, whether it uses literal stories or not is immaterial. Keep an open mind to BOTH possibilities, so you are not embittered by finding your one-trick pony is dead.

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This is what happens when we attempt to square current scientific understanding with what we find in the scriptures, and I find it disappointing and sad every time.

The scriptures have never been intended to be used as a scientific guide to our history. It has been intended to be used as a spiritual guide to our history, present state, and future potetial. Of the two, which do you find more useful?

"We are not physical beings busy having spiritual experiences. Rather, we are spiritual beings busy having physical experiences."

I forget who said that, but it wasn't me. All the same it resonates with me whenever this type of argument comes up.

We are seeking, and correctly so, to gain a greater understanding of what the acutal conditions of the flood were....How did it happen? What was it like on the ark? How many animals really did get put on the ark? These are all valid and important questions....but also totally unanswerable. There is no scientific, or even logical method of gaining a full understanding of how it worked.

There are several instances of this happening throughout the scriptures. They're called miracles. How did Jesus peform his miracles? What about Moses, or Elijah, or any of the other prophets that did what they did?

If you aren't willing to accept "By the power of God" as a valid answer, then any further discussion will ultimately end in what has already happened; bitter arguments, tangental jabs at other posters, and most importantly, a loss of the Spirit.

We cannot answer all the questions about the flood, because we don't have all the facts surrounding the event. We cannot even accurately determine how many people attended President Obama's inaguration, and that was only a year ago.

We must remember the limitations of human nature, the corrosive effects of time upon recorded history, and the severe holes in what we have managed to preserve of our history.

More importantly we must remember the actual purpose of why we're here, and what we need to accomplish in order to fulfill our potential. The questions surrounding the flood will be answered in the due time of God. As of right now, the particulars of the event itself beyond what we now know are of no eternal importance to us. There are more important issues to worry about than this. If it were otherwise, God would have revealed it to us.

The flood happened. There are eternal lessons and principles that we need to learn from it that have significant importance to us spiritually. These are the reasons the story is in the bible. These are the things we need to learn....not how Noah managed to get all the animals on board...not even necessarily where it all happened.

There's nothing at all wrong with saying "Right now, I just don't know.", because right now, nobody does.

You are correct on several fronts. However, please understand that many of us believe that even when G-d performs miracles that these things are not meant to deceive us. I personally believe that understanding how things occur do not mean that they are not miracles. I also believe that once we have an understanding we could explain any miracle.

There are several assumptions made concerning floods. Water is one of the main forces of erosion that shapes and defines our landscape. Therefore one assumption made concerning a global flood is consistent global erosion associated with the catastrophe. In this example, scientists are looking for specific evidence that has been documented with known floods. Not only has this kind of research not produced any results indicating a global flood – scientists have not been able to find such evidence even of a localized flood in the area where the scriptures identify where the ark came to rest. Does this mean that there really was not a flood during the time frame that we believe Noah to have lived?

I offer my personal opinion. I do not believe that the scriptures give us enough accurate information that we can positively identify the event and validate it’s occurrence in history. When I say this I realize that many will be troubled with this view. It means that the scriptures cannot be use as a means to validate such things. I also believe that this exercise is not pointless. I believe that when we have sufficient information we will be able to validate the truth of all things – including the flood.

I have posted in this thread that I believe the point of the Noah and flood epoch has much deeper meaning than an ancient event in history. I believe it has more to understanding our own covenants and things that will come to be. Scriptures are more than an accurate understanding of history and events somewhere in the past. I continue to believe if we get hung up in the history of Noah that we will not understand the message intended – that is not a message of something long ago. Unless we understand the correct message we will become more associated with those that opposed Noah’s covenant and relationship with G-d rather than with Noah and the divine covenants that deliver us from evil.

The Traveler

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As for my part in this conversation, I am just trying to demonstrate that an actual global flood has been consistently taught in the Church, and is still taught in Church publications. That counts for something for those who want to believe it. I am one of those. I believe that there was an actual global flood and that the earth was immersed in water. I'm not concerned about the lack of convincing scientific evidence for it. This would not be the first doctrinal issue in Mormonism or Christianity that cannot be validated by current science.

That said, I don't believe a belief in a global flood is necessary for salvation, as the following FairLDS article concludes:

Without a doubt, the flood is always treated as global event as it is taught by Church leaders. This is not likely to ever change, since it is based directly upon a straightforward reading of the scriptures. The challenge comes to those who examine scientific data showing the diversity of plant and animal life, and the millennia required to achieve such diversity. The story of a global deluge then appears to be at complete odds with scientific data, which may encourage some not only to doubt the scriptures, but to even question the existence of God. Therefore, can one believe that the Flood of Noah may have been of limited scope, yet still accept what is taught in Church? This article examines the scriptures from the point of view of the prophets who wrote the story of the Flood in order to answer this question.

Although this criticism is directed at the LDS church, it is really directed at anyone who believes in a literal reading of the Old Testament. LDS leaders have in the past taught the concept of a global flood based upon such a reading. Although the idea of the global flood has been used as an example, Church leaders have never stated that a belief in a global flood is necessary for salvation. (Mormonism and science/Global or local Flood - FAIRMormon)

Also the following article demonstrates that this understanding has been consistently taught. McConkie is not even quoted once in it. :P

Mormonism and science/Global or local Flood/Statements - FAIRMormon

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited by Vanhin
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VanHin,

I have no problem with anyone wanting to believe in a Global Flood. I haven't entirely ruled it out, myself. I just want to make sure that we are not so cemented to such an idea that when it ends up not being what we expected, we lose our entire testimony.

I actually know people who insist that if the Flood was not global, then the whole Christian thing is a fraud. That's on the same level as someone insisting on a 6000 year old earth, or that the Bible is totally wrong. Why? Why can't some of it possibly be allegory and other parts historical, and all of the spiritual concepts true? After all, we already have had some modern prophets tell us that portions of the Creation and Garden stories are allegorical, and it hasn't destroyed faith in Christ or the gospel.

Again, I have no problem with someone believing these things are historical, as long as they leave room for other views. Otherwise, we build a house of cards, not only for ourselves, but others we teach, and when the deck collapses, so goes the faith.

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VanHin,

I have no problem with anyone wanting to believe in a Global Flood. I haven't entirely ruled it out, myself. I just want to make sure that we are not so cemented to such an idea that when it ends up not being what we expected, we lose our entire testimony.

Hey rameumptom,

I always appreciate having these kinds of conversations with you.

I'm not looking for science to validate the flood or the Book of Mormon, or anything else, though I believe that eventually we will know all things. Since it is the scriptures that make the claim that it was a global flood, from the account written by Moses, to the record of Ether, to the New Testament, it will take a revelation from God through his chosen oracle, which will be added to our canon and become binding on me, in order to correct my belief. If that happens, then I, like many others, will simply accept it and move on, since that is the reason we beleive that the events of the flood were literal to begin with.

I actually know people who insist that if the Flood was not global, then the whole Christian thing is a fraud. That's on the same level as someone insisting on a 6000 year old earth, or that the Bible is totally wrong. Why? Why can't some of it possibly be allegory and other parts historical, and all of the spiritual concepts true? After all, we already have had some modern prophets tell us that portions of the Creation and Garden stories are allegorical, and it hasn't destroyed faith in Christ or the gospel.

Many people have left the Church, and I know people (very close to me) who struggle with the Book of Mormon for the same reasons. The lack of archeological evidence that positively validates the Book of Mormon is hard for many to accept. That's just how it is with faith sometimes. God is capable of "covering his tracks" for his own purposes, and in this case, I truly believe it is because He wants us to have faith in Him. Proof is forthcoming, when the time is right.

But that issue has no bearing on testimony. Testimony is based on a far greater and more profound Witness than physical evidence. For the eyes can deceive... People shouldn't be basing their testimonies of God or the Church on anything except the Spiritual witness that comes after the trial of their faith.

Again, I have no problem with someone believing these things are historical, as long as they leave room for other views. Otherwise, we build a house of cards, not only for ourselves, but others we teach, and when the deck collapses, so goes the faith.

People are welcome to believe however they want. But as long as the scriptures make it plainly clear, and the Church teaches it plainly, I will insist that it was a global flood. There's no evidence of a local flood either, so going the route of "allegory" will leave us with nothing. No flood, no global destruction of "all flesh" upon the earth except for those in the Ark, no actual baptism of the earth, etc... The story of the Noah and the Ark, is both reality and allegory. It teaches us many things, yet it actually happened, if we believe the scriptures. Moses was not confused about what the whole earth was, we know that as latter-day saints.

Anyway, I allow people the freedom to believe what they will. I'm just making the case that the Church has taught a global flood consistently, and still does. Because the scriptures are quite clear on the matter, I don't see how the Church can support any other understanding at this point.

Regards,

Vanhin

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1) Where geographically did Noah live and build the ark?

2) Did Noah practice plural marriage?

3) What kind of help do you think Noah had in its construction?

4) What ways do you think the ark was sealed from water?

5) Is this reasonable to assume that these species were on the ark considering that some of these animals have no ties back to this area?

6) Was the ark even big enough to house all of the species?

7) What approximate year was Noah born?

1) The Bible never actually says where Noah lived prior to the flood. If Noah and his family lived in that Black Sea basin, it would explain very nicely how he ended up in the Mountains of Ararat, something that would be nearly impossible if he had simply ridden out a flood in the Tigris/Euphrates basin. Bible Study - April 2005

2) No. There were 8 people aboard. Noah, wife, 3 sons and their girlfriends/wives.

3) Family and possibly hired help. There are theories that human were bigger, stronger and lived much longer. As many animals were larger.

Example; a lizard is an Amphibian, which never stops growing until death. If the different nature of the Earth sustained lizards and humans for hundreds of years, it would grow to the size of a, what we call, dinosaur.

4) Pitch - a black, sticky substance formed in the distillation of coal tar, wood tar, petroleum, etc. and used for waterproofing, roofing, pavements, etc.

5) The Earths Continents were most likely connected before the flood. Look below at the map. And hence, animals were probably not separated to different Continents until after.

Posted Image

6) All varieties of species did not have to be housed. Example; two wolves could easily contain all of the varieties of dog. Hundreds of new varieties have been bred in the last 200 years alone. Also, keep in mind, if Noah had to take 2 elephants... I'm sure he would take babies, or young ones.

7) NOAH was born 2948 B.C. in Shulon, East, Eden and died about 1998 B.C

Check this out for more info, just found it...

http://creationwiki.org/Noah's_ark

Also, much can be learned by watching "Kent Hovind" seminars, lectures and debates regarding creation on YouTube. Great stuff!

Edited by JohnOF123
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Actually a lizard is a reptile. Did you mean something else? Also, did you intend to link to a map of pangea? That looks like a modern map (or close to it).

Yes, you are correct. Thx. I should have said reptile.

And I meant to paste that map since you can see how Africa can fit nicely into the Americas. Thought it might be more convincing than Pangea, but perhaps I should have posted both.

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Yes, you are correct. Thx. I should have said reptile.

And I meant to paste that map since you can see how Africa can fit nicely into the Americas. Thought it might be more convincing than Pangea, but perhaps I should have posted both.

What about something like this?

Posted Image

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  • 4 years later...
Awesome! You rock Dravin. Now if only you could find one that shows flood waters blasting out of the ground moving those Continents, lol!

I realize that this tread is about 4 years old now, but in light of that and new things that are being revealed, I thought I'd share this one. I read a couple of days ago in The Daily Mail about a recent discovery that found that there is a vast reservoir hidden beneath the Earth's crust that holds a much water as all of the earth's oceans.

The vast reservoir hidden in the Earth's crust that holds as much water as ALL of the oceans | Mail Online

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I'm active LDS, a temple recommend holder and a lot of the stuff in the Old Testament I simply do not consider factual or accurate.

As for the story of Noah, I do not for one second think that Noah actually built and Ark able to carry multiple versions of each specie on the planet - not for a second. I think the second we go down that route we open up a cottage industry trying to explain how it was possible and deal with all of the inconsistencies and implications that arise as a result.

Consider that the Bible has many known issues. Consider that we support the bible so far as it is translated correctly. In doing this is recognise that those books were cobbled together with all kinds of materials drawn in including Jewish Nationalistic writings, fables, poetry, etc.

Did Moses really write and describe himself as the most humble prophet that ever lived?

Did Moses really write that 'Since Moses died', and 'To this day nobody knows where he is buried'?

Did Moses really describe himself as the greatest prophet in all the generations since (his own death)?

I seriously doubt it. Yet NONE of this affects my belief in God and the Saviour.

Is it possible that there was a world wide flood and Noah got all of the critters in a huge boat? Yes, since with God all things are possible. Do I think it happened that way - Not at all.

At the root of this is a truth, a smaller story. Maybe a localised flood, a regional flood. Maybe it is based on a much older story (like the Epic of the Gilgamesh) that was imported into Judiasm by contact with the Babylonians. Accepting the idea that the global flood was real means that either;

1. The boat was big enough for multiple counts of every specie and sub variant on this planet along with their food needs.

2. God did Creation 2 after the flood and added additional species or subspecies without telling anyone.

3. After the flood a version of evolution saw one type of elephant become 2, and saw one type of spider become 3000 types. Not to mention the sheer variety of species of flowers and plants exclusive to certain parts of the world - why does the Amazon have some much plant life that does not exist in other parts of the world?

Simply stated, overcoming these problems requires filling so many holes with non doctrine it gets silly. If the recent Blacks and Priesthood essay can simply state that all statements (even those official on the record statements of the First Presidency, and things like 2 Nephi 5) are wrong and disavowed, then determining that Noah has been overstated as fact is easy.

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I realize that this tread is about 4 years old now, but in light of that and new things that are being revealed, I thought I'd share this one. I read a couple of days ago in The Daily Mail about a recent discovery that found that there is a vast reservoir hidden beneath the Earth's crust that holds a much water as all of the earth's oceans.

The vast reservoir hidden in the Earth's crust that holds as much water as ALL of the oceans | Mail Online

This is interesting - but may not relate to the flood - the "water" beneath the earth's mantel is a hydride and not liquid.

There is great risk in trying to apply empirical possibilities to something to which there is insufficient empirical evidence.

This is not to say that the flood has no meaning or no empirical meaning -- just that it is my opinion that trying to claim empirical meaning is faulty and causes confusion that will only lead to doubt concerning the spiritual significance.

The Traveler

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Lot's of interesting discussion about whether and how this event occurred. How about why? Why did God kill every man, woman, and child on the planet except a chosen few? Why not just wait til the wicked die and then judge them? What lessons are we supposed to learn from this? :confused:

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Zen,

I think it is a fair question to ask and I'm not sure on the answer. I don't think this presents a problem to us as Latter-Day saints the way it does to evangelical churches, as we have the option to accept that it 'might' not be recorded in its entirety or might be figurative.

I'm not a fan of Dogma, I think our church has superb theology, but there are areas like this were there isn't much by the way of revealed commentary.

Why would an omniscient God who can see into the future need to kill men, women, children, and all animals and insects on the planet besides the few saved?

Why not simply wait?

It could be argued that those people might kill the faithful, which is reasonable. It could be argued that, as in the BOM, if it didn't happen the righteous would be led astray by the wicked (What might appear to be inconsistent can still be consistent - consider how Nephi was commanded to kill Laban to obtain the plates or else the Nephites would perish in unbelief and yet they perished anyway - perhaps it would have happened much sooner).

For me, the Doctrine and Covenants is an easier set of scriptures to understand, as it is simply the Lord speaking to us directly, rather than being an account of someone's life from which we might read to much into or too little into.

As I said earlier, it does not affect my faith at all to simply assume (until proven otherwise) that the Noah story is figurative. I tend to think that anything that affects the nature or interpretation of God as Omniscient, Omnipotent, Fair, and Merciful has to be wrong somewhere.

Hence my comments that IMO half of the Old Testament is nonsense (there are stacks of examples of issues with it you can find online if you Google - which is one reason why when Evangelist Christians attack the Book Of Mormon I find it ironic that they seem to view the Bible as perfect and flawless when it absolutely isn't).

In the end, some things I park, some things I deem unreasonable or unlikely and wait for further information, and the rest I accept on the grounds of faith.

Just my 2cents.

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I'm active LDS, a temple recommend holder and a lot of the stuff in the Old Testament I simply do not consider factual or accurate.

Text can be accurate without being complete. As far as it being factual, I don't think that was ever the intent.

We learned the facts before we came here. We knew all the facts. We learned all the facts until we could learn no more facts. With all those facts there was a choice made. We all made the correct choice given all the facts. Now, this life is not a test of the facts. It is a test to see how faithful we are in trusting in the Lord, do we do what we said we would while we are tied down by the flesh, not having all the facts and access to them like we did before? That is the test of this life. There is no need for God to provide us with all the facts again to repeat the test we already took and passed. This is a test to reveal the true desires of the heart not just the logical answer to a question like taking a math exam. Do we have a propensity to understand the spiritual intent of the lesson and rely on spiritual insight to understand it as opposed to our own learning or the learning of man?

Just because we don't know how it was done or can't show how it was done doesn't make it impossible. How do we know God didn't provide Noah, for example, with the DNA sequence of every creature in the world, one male and one female and a device that would implant the DNA into precursor cells that could be delivered to the right locations around the world after the flood. How much space would that zip drive take? I don't know, cause I just made that up. We don't have all the facts.

I don't think it matters what the mechanism was, it only matters that we don't lose faith in God and His purposes even if we don't totally understand his method. The way to come to grips with that is knowing that it was never intended that we have all the understanding while here. It would defeat the purpose of this life if we had all the understanding.

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Id like to know how rare significant rain was in that region during that time.

I saw a program on TV about the great flood. In this program, they analyzed the ancient records of many cultures and they all recorded the great flood.

The science in the TV program suggested that instead of rain being the source of the water that flooded the world that "... the fonts of the deep were opened ..." which was interpreted to mean that the water came from beneath the crust of the earth when the crust of the earth broke open and the water that the crust of the earth had been floating on erupted like geysers from within the earth.

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I saw a program on TV about the great flood. In this program, they analyzed the ancient records of many cultures and they all recorded the great flood.

The science in the TV program suggested that instead of rain being the source of the water that flooded the world that "... the fonts of the deep were opened ..." which was interpreted to mean that the water came from beneath the crust of the earth when the crust of the earth broke open and the water that the crust of the earth had been floating on erupted like geysers from within the earth.

Some crude analysis of how much water it would take to generate that kind of flooding:

http://www.lds.net/forums/general-discussion/49559-science-religion-3.html#post707276

In short, you'd have to find the equivalent of 62 Pacific Ocean's to cover the world for a total flood (assuming you believe the full immersion theory). I'm not sure how much water is in the ocean's crust, but the geologic event of unleashing that water and capturing it all again in the span of a year would have to have left behind a pretty big trail of evidence. I have my doubts that this is what happened.

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Lot's of interesting discussion about whether and how this event occurred. How about why? Why did God kill every man, woman, and child on the planet except a chosen few? Why not just wait til the wicked die and then judge them? What lessons are we supposed to learn from this? :confused:

I think you ask the more important question. There are a number of times that G-d has intervened in the wickedness of a society and destroyed that society. Most of us categorize wickedness and think certain things are worse than others. Asking ourselves what wickedness qualifies for G-d's intervention is something we all ought to consider.

I personally do not think that the wickedness is related to acts as much as it is society accepting or even embracing the acts of wickedness so much so that any children (rising generation) of such a society have no agency to grow up with influences other than such wickedness. The Book of Enoch has something I find interesting to say about the flood and the wickedness that proceeded the flood. It says in essence that they (they being the society and those that controlled the governing laws of society) changed the "order of marriage" and conceived all children of that generation for carnal purposes.

It is my personal belief that as we draw closer to the return of Christ that the kind of wickedness and social supports of such wickedness will not be so different.

The Traveler

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