Muslim Demographics - End Times

[JohnOF123]

This is a very interesting video I actually heard on the radio.

We all know how the Bible says that Christians will be hunted down and executed (be-headed) during the end times. This sounds barbaric to us, unless we consider 1 (one) people group whom may still do this: The Islamic religion. Technically, North Korea will jail you for Christianity, but it is not due to a religious zeal or Holy Book. The government in many Islamic countries will kill their people for converting to Christianity.

It is amazing to see prophecy from the Bible and end-times unfold right before our eyes.

I always wondered how it could be that the World would hunt Christians down in the end times. But if these demographics are accurate, then it now makes more sense.

The Qur'an teaches in Sura 2:191 “And kill them wherever ye shall find them" speaking of Christians and Jews.

Edited February 15, 2010 by JohnOF123
typo in scripture number

[john doe]

Which governments kill people who convert to Christianity?

[Guest Godless]

From the Qur'an:

[2.187] It is made lawful to you to go into your wives on the night of the fast; they are an apparel for you and you are an apparel for them; Allah knew that you acted unfaithfully to yourselves, so He has turned to you (mercifully) and removed from you (this burden); so now be in contact with them and seek what Allah has ordained for you, and eat and drink until the whiteness of the day becomes distinct from the blackness of the night at dawn, then complete the fast till night, and have not contact with them while you keep to the mosques; these are the limits of Allah, so do not go near them. Thus does Allah make clear His communications for men that they may guard (against evil).

[2.188] And do not swallow up your property among yourselves by false means, neither seek to gain access thereby to the judges, so that you may swallow up a part of the property of men wrongfully while you know.

[2.189] They ask you concerning the new moon. Say: They are times appointed for (the benefit of) men, and (for) the pilgrimage; and it is not righteousness that you should enter the houses at their backs, but righteousness is this that one should guard (against evil); and go into the houses by their doors and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, that you may be successful.

You might want to check your references before misquoting the sacred text of another religion.

Generally speaking, Muslim nations are safe for Christians. There have been a few Christians killed in Iraq, but that was at the hands of extremists, not the government.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Godless

[JohnOF123]

You might want to check your references before misquoting the sacred text of another religion.

My mistake, it was Surah 2:191, not 187. Thanks for pointing that out.

Generally speaking, Muslim nations are safe for Christians. There have been a few Christians killed in Iraq, but that was at the hands of extremists, not the government.

I invite you to travel to The Kaaba, put on a Jewish kippah or a Christian cross, and see how long you live. The "extremists" in this case are very faithful to the teachings in the Qur'an. I'm sorry to say that Islam is not a religion of peace.

Note that my purpose of this thread was not to "bash" a religion, but to point out prophecy on its way to fulfillment. In the Bible, every people group that Jesus claims to make war with on His second coming are now a Muslim nation.

Which governments kill people who convert to Christianity?

Converting from Islam to any other religion is illegal in Yemen and can be punishable by death. This is also the case in many areas of the world.

The Muslim world uses Qur'an 4:089 to justify execution for conversion away from Islam.

Here are a couple examples of that type of event by a government power.

Hanged for being a Christian in Iran - Telegraph

FOXNews.com - Afghan Man Faces Death for Allegedly Converting to Christianity - U.S. & World

Nigeria.com Discussion Forums - DEATH PENALTY FOR CONVERTING TO CHRISTIANITY

Yemen detains 9 people for converting from Islam to Christianity - Jihad Watch

Edited February 15, 2010 by JohnOF123

[JohnOF123]

I believe this is the sign you will see at the highway on the way to Mecca.

Edited February 15, 2010 by JohnOF123

[john doe]

Is the bottom sign real or a photoshop? It looks shopped to me.

[JohnOF123]

Is the bottom sign real or a photoshop? It looks shopped to me.

Lol, yea, I wish it was.

Mecca - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Source Wikipedia

Make sure you don't miss that exit ramp!!

[pam]

I have to be honest. I'm not sure I like this thread.

[JohnOF123]

I have to be honest. I'm not sure I like this thread.

Lol, it turned into a big scary story didn't it. If anyone should see anything here, it is that the world may one day be dominated by a religion that allows end times prophecy to be fulfilled.

Reminds me that my wife is afraid of the Book of Revelations, lol.

I'll now concentrate on making some threads people really enjoy for a couple days, hehe.

[pam]

No it didn't turn into a big scary story. It turned into what appears to me to be a bashing of the Muslim religion. THAT'S what I don't like about it.

[Dravin]

Lol, yea, I wish it was.

Mecca - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Source Wikipedia

Make sure you don't miss that exit ramp!!

Mecca isn't the question. The bottom image says New York and Plattsville.

[john doe]

Lol, yea, I wish it was.

Mecca - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Source Wikipedia

Make sure you don't miss that exit ramp!!

No, the top sign looks real, but the bottom one is obviously a fake. The letters that say New York are not straight on the sign.

[Guest Godless]

Mecca is a holy city and the site of the annual Hajj. So the "Muslims Only" sign makes sense. And as for the other picture, I'm about 99% sure that New York and Plattsville aren't names you'll find in the Middle East. That has to be photoshopped.

I invite you to travel to The Kaaba, put on a Jewish kippah or a Christian cross, and see how long you live. The "extremists" in this case are very faithful to the teachings in the Qur'an. I'm sorry to say that Islam is not a religion of peace.

I've been to the Middle East multiple times and will be returning later this year. I've been to Najaf, one of the holiest cities in the Muslim world (I think Mecca is the only place considered more sacred than Najaf). The people there are religious, but most them are people just like you and me. They work for a living, they support families, and they do their best to live good lives. The jihadists in Iraq are a minority, their motives are driven more by our mere presence than our religion. As for the other places I've been (Kuwait, Qatar, and Egypt), I saw virtually no hostility.

The fact that a few Muslim nations have conservative/fundamentalist governments is unfortunate, but it's unreasonable to suggest that the entire region is a powder keg due to these few nations. Yemen and Afghanistan don't represent Islam any more than the Westboro Baptist Church represents Christianity.

[JohnOF123]

No, the top sign looks real, but the bottom one is obviously a fake. The letters that say New York are not straight on the sign.

Ohh, haha. I didn't even see that! Thx, fixed

[pam]

I know many Muslims. As Godless stated, they are people just like you and me. They work, support their families, love their families, are religious. They are contributors to their communities. It's the extremists that you hear about in the news not the every day Muslim.

[JohnOF123]

I love the Muslim people very much. I have Muslim friends and am working on learning Arabic, which I enjoy. But people should be aware of certain things.

The God of the Bible loves Jews (they are His chosen people) and Christians (they are His children). He loves everybody. And the God of the Qur'an (Allah) hates the Jews and Christians.

Satan is very clever to take religion and swap God and Satan. I can show you how these roles have been swapped, but I choose to respect the moderators wishes on this matter. If you really wish to discuss something further, feel free to PM. I'm not here to slander a people, but we should be wise as Christians. Let us show our love to the Muslim people and bring them to faith in Jesus Christ.

[Gilgamesh]

I am a Cristian and my girlfriend is from Iran (she is a Muslim). To tell you the truth, I do not think that God created the differences between Jews, Christians and Muslims. We, the humans are to blame for that. We all (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) claim our heritage from Abraham. But what was Abraham religion? He did not call himself neither Jew, nor Muslim or Christian. But despite of that he was one of the most faithful people on this earth. In my opinion the answer is - To seek God with a full intent of heart, to try to find answers for ourselves (not just rely on written revelations). God is merciful......and He will answer.

[sjdean]

I like my theological question. I can understand how Christianity evolved from Judaiism. The old testament pretty much points to a saviour doesn't it?

But Im confused over Islam, because it seems to contradict many of the teachings from the Bible.

As a Christian, if we hold the Bible to be the infallible word of God, how can we claim that Islam has the same God?

Cya

Simon

[Sean1427]

Yes, I'm very late to the party on this one, but I have to post a reply in the event anyone might visit the thread again. Thanks for the photos! I loved them. And yes, the signs above the freeway are real though NY and Plattsville arent's on the sign. For those of us who live in Saudi, this is what we refer to as The Christian Beltway. Washington, D.C. has its beltway, Salt Lake City as its beltway and so does Mecca. Oh, the fond memories this photo brings up and the stories I could tell. But back to the photo--this is really no different than needing a temple recommend for any LDS member who wants to go to the temple. If you don't have it at the door, you'll be turned away. The same thing applies to Mecca and Medina. And LDS temple in many ways is similar to these two cities. It's just a matter of size.

I've known Christians who've been in Mecca. While I wouldn't recommend it, I doubt your life will be foreit. In Saudi they're actually quite forgiving when Christians do stupid things. And all the laws they have do have safeguards built into the system. However, as with any religion, abuse does exist as well as people who misinterpret things or do things that go against their religion. This applies to government as well. Godless and Pam are correct, Muslims are a very good people. But I need to point out something about Americans and those in the West, something that's quite well researched, i.e., our knowledge of Muslims has not changed much since the Middle Ages, and for those living in the Middle Ages, their knowledge was not based on actual experience or rooted in reality. If Mormons want to understand Muslims all they need to do in many ways is look at themselves. Mormons in the US always point at that those who disparage the Church don't really know about the Church because of bad history and an equally bad PR. The same holds true for Muslims. I've found it odd that many LDS in the US have attitudes toward Muslims that are no different than the negative attitudes most non-Mormons who are anti-US have against us. The incorrect perceptions are all rooted in ignorance. I am not using "ignorance" to put anyone down; I am simply saying that many simply get their views of Muslims from television, movies, radio, politicians, and papers all published by people who know no more than the targeted audience. It's a good case of the blind leading the blind and they're all down there in the ditch, not really knowing they're in a ditch.

POne thing we as Mormons or Christians need to be careful of is seeing things in other's scriptures that adherents of those scriptures don't interpret the way we do. For instance, I found it odd that there are many of us Mormons--and please don't think I'm addressing this to anyone here--who point out that the Qur'an is full of violence, but we fail to remember how non-Mormons see our own scriptures. The BOM starts off with Nephi cutting off Laban's head! Much of the BOM is filled with wars and bloodshed. The D&C speaks of war. Christ was crucified. And that's all before we get to the Old Testament and all the violence found in those pages as well as scriptural approved physical punishments which are pretty gruesome by our modern standards. Of course, we'll defend our scriptures by saying that those attacking us don't really understand what's being said or what really happened. The Muslims have to do the same thing when we accuse them.

Case in point--according to Islam the death penalty is possible for conversion to another religion. First, this has to be a public conversion, not a private conversion. This is how its interpreted. Second, while the law is technically on the books, you rarely see it being enforced. But whether it's enforced or not, it's a bit unfair to criticize their scriptures for this when our own scriptures have the same injunction, which is something I didn't see until an orthodox Israeli Jew who hated Christian missionaries pointed this out to me. The verses he gave me were in Deuteronomy 13:6-11, where the command is given to stone to death any who convert or proselytize. The fact Israel doesn't do this is because while modern Israel is a religious state, most Israelis are secular Jews. If they were practicing Jews, the Law of Moses would be lived and would seem much like Sharia is in many Muslim nations.

While some LDS think it's absurd that Muslims still practice polygamy, we'd still be practicing it if there hadn't been a change of policy. Maybe not in the US, but certainly in a country that allowed it. And many Mormons are polygamists according to our beliefs, just not in this life. But then you have non-LDS who still believe we practice polygamy in this life. They confuse us with those break-offs fronm the early church who live in Utah, Arizona, Texas or wherever. And we're constantly having to correct their false views. And some non-LDS not only use our history but our own scritpures to make their point. For instance, I've known non-LDS to point out that Mormons can have up to 10 wives and use D&C 132 beginning with verse 61. And we'll say, "Yeah, but, but . . . you don't understand . . ." ANd they don't, but they don't understand they don't. It's the same with us when it comes to Islam and Muslims.

Ah, regarding safeguards. Women in Saudi can be killed for adultery. (So can men but . . .) But let me add a view points that help clarify how the law is actually applied. (By the way, we have all kinds of laws on our books that are not applied or allow some discretion as to whether to apply themand how to apply them.) First, this law does not apply to someone who's single. Second, adultery is defined narrowly to the actual sexual act. If you're simply with someone who's married, that's not the crime of adultery. Third, in order to be convicted, four adult male witnesses have to have seen you in the actual act. Find four is difficult and find four who actually saw you in the act is also difficult. And the women do not remove their veils, which makes it difficult to ID someone. Lastly, there are severe punishments in place for a witness who perjures himself. It's similar to old English law, which I kind of like, where the punishment for one who perjures himself is the same punishment the accuse would have received had he been convicted.

Another good one, whipping we tend to judge by our history of flogging. Such is not the way whipping is legally done in Saudi. I know Bangladeshis who've been whipped and come away laughing. You see, the one inflicting the punishment uses a single reed about 3 feet long to whip the individual. It's done in public, so the punishment is more public humiliation in a culture where saving face means as much as it does in Japan or the Far East. And the fun part is this--the one inflicting the punishment has to place a copy of the Qur'an in his right armpit and hold it there by arm pressure alone while inflicting the punishment. If he drops it, he's in trouble. Practice it. Try to really whip someone with a copy of the Bible under your armpit.

Does abuse take place? Yes. Are there miscarriages of justice? Yes. Do people confuse culture with religion, such as with FGM? Yes. But do these things also happen in the West, and in America. Of course they do. Dickens thought our prison system was barbaric. Skousen actually pointed to a study in Canada where prisoners preferred physical punishment to spending time in prison. All kinds of things happen to a prisoner behind bars, things far worse than the crime deserves. But Amercans don't care--after all, all felons are the same and if you did the crime you deserve what you get as long as it's out fo the public eye. Throw 'em prison and throw away they key. If they are sodomized or killed well . . . they shouldn't have broken the law. Fundamentalist Jews have told me that proselyting of Jews by Christians is worse than what Hitler did because Hitler only destroyed the body while what the Christians are doing destroys the soul.

Ok, sorry for the soapbox. Fortunately, no one will ever read this. But if any of you do read this, thanks again for the photos John123 and Pam and Godless, you're absolutely right about Muslims. Most of them are actually more Christian, shall we say, in terms of how they live,than are most Christians I know in the West.

[Dravin]

I like my theological question. I can understand how Christianity evolved from Judaiism. The old testament pretty much points to a saviour doesn't it?

But Im confused over Islam, because it seems to contradict many of the teachings from the Bible.

As a Christian, if we hold the Bible to be the infallible word of God, how can we claim that Islam has the same God?

Cya

Simon

Firstly, not all Christians hold the Bible to be the infallible word of God, so that's a faulty assumption from the start.

The reason Islam is held as believing in the same God is that they believe in the God of Abraham (as does Judaism and Christianity). There are significant differences mind you and I'm not sure how much Islam holds to the Bible itself, but they trace themselves and their faith (through their own routing) back to Abraham like we do* (via Ishmael unless I'm mistaken).

* This is kinda the quick and clean version of it but to my understanding that is the tie between the three religions.

[yorkiebeebs]

Yes, I'm very late to the party on this one, but I have to post a reply in the event anyone might visit the thread again. Thanks for the photos! I loved them. And yes, the signs above the freeway are real though NY and Plattsville arent's on the sign. For those of us who live in Saudi, this is what we refer to as The Christian Beltway. Washington, D.C. has its beltway, Salt Lake City as its beltway and so does Mecca. Oh, the fond memories this photo brings up and the stories I could tell. But back to the photo--this is really no different than needing a temple recommend for any LDS member who wants to go to the temple. If you don't have it at the door, you'll be turned away. The same thing applies to Mecca and Medina. And LDS temple in many ways is similar to these two cities. It's just a matter of size.

I've known Christians who've been in Mecca. While I wouldn't recommend it, I doubt your life will be foreit. In Saudi they're actually quite forgiving when Christians do stupid things. And all the laws they have do have safeguards built into the system. However, as with any religion, abuse does exist as well as people who misinterpret things or do things that go against their religion. This applies to government as well. Godless and Pam are correct, Muslims are a very good people. But I need to point out something about Americans and those in the West, something that's quite well researched, i.e., our knowledge of Muslims has not changed much since the Middle Ages, and for those living in the Middle Ages, their knowledge was not based on actual experience or rooted in reality. If Mormons want to understand Muslims all they need to do in many ways is look at themselves. Mormons in the US always point at that those who disparage the Church don't really know about the Church because of bad history and an equally bad PR. The same holds true for Muslims. I've found it odd that many LDS in the US have attitudes toward Muslims that are no different than the negative attitudes most non-Mormons who are anti-US have against us. The incorrect perceptions are all rooted in ignorance. I am not using "ignorance" to put anyone down; I am simply saying that many simply get their views of Muslims from television, movies, radio, politicians, and papers all published by people who know no more than the targeted audience. It's a good case of the blind leading the blind and they're all down there in the ditch, not really knowing they're in a ditch.

POne thing we as Mormons or Christians need to be careful of is seeing things in other's scriptures that adherents of those scriptures don't interpret the way we do. For instance, I found it odd that there are many of us Mormons--and please don't think I'm addressing this to anyone here--who point out that the Qur'an is full of violence, but we fail to remember how non-Mormons see our own scriptures. The BOM starts off with Nephi cutting off Laban's head! Much of the BOM is filled with wars and bloodshed. The D&C speaks of war. Christ was crucified. And that's all before we get to the Old Testament and all the violence found in those pages as well as scriptural approved physical punishments which are pretty gruesome by our modern standards. Of course, we'll defend our scriptures by saying that those attacking us don't really understand what's being said or what really happened. The Muslims have to do the same thing when we accuse them.

Case in point--according to Islam the death penalty is possible for conversion to another religion. First, this has to be a public conversion, not a private conversion. This is how its interpreted. Second, while the law is technically on the books, you rarely see it being enforced. But whether it's enforced or not, it's a bit unfair to criticize their scriptures for this when our own scriptures have the same injunction, which is something I didn't see until an orthodox Israeli Jew who hated Christian missionaries pointed this out to me. The verses he gave me were in Deuteronomy 13:6-11, where the command is given to stone to death any who convert or proselytize. The fact Israel doesn't do this is because while modern Israel is a religious state, most Israelis are secular Jews. If they were practicing Jews, the Law of Moses would be lived and would seem much like Sharia is in many Muslim nations.

While some LDS think it's absurd that Muslims still practice polygamy, we'd still be practicing it if there hadn't been a change of policy. Maybe not in the US, but certainly in a country that allowed it. And many Mormons are polygamists according to our beliefs, just not in this life. But then you have non-LDS who still believe we practice polygamy in this life. They confuse us with those break-offs fronm the early church who live in Utah, Arizona, Texas or wherever. And we're constantly having to correct their false views. And some non-LDS not only use our history but our own scritpures to make their point. For instance, I've known non-LDS to point out that Mormons can have up to 10 wives and use D&C 132 beginning with verse 61. And we'll say, "Yeah, but, but . . . you don't understand . . ." ANd they don't, but they don't understand they don't. It's the same with us when it comes to Islam and Muslims.

Ah, regarding safeguards. Women in Saudi can be killed for adultery. (So can men but . . .) But let me add a view points that help clarify how the law is actually applied. (By the way, we have all kinds of laws on our books that are not applied or allow some discretion as to whether to apply themand how to apply them.) First, this law does not apply to someone who's single. Second, adultery is defined narrowly to the actual sexual act. If you're simply with someone who's married, that's not the crime of adultery. Third, in order to be convicted, four adult male witnesses have to have seen you in the actual act. Find four is difficult and find four who actually saw you in the act is also difficult. And the women do not remove their veils, which makes it difficult to ID someone. Lastly, there are severe punishments in place for a witness who perjures himself. It's similar to old English law, which I kind of like, where the punishment for one who perjures himself is the same punishment the accuse would have received had he been convicted.

Another good one, whipping we tend to judge by our history of flogging. Such is not the way whipping is legally done in Saudi. I know Bangladeshis who've been whipped and come away laughing. You see, the one inflicting the punishment uses a single reed about 3 feet long to whip the individual. It's done in public, so the punishment is more public humiliation in a culture where saving face means as much as it does in Japan or the Far East. And the fun part is this--the one inflicting the punishment has to place a copy of the Qur'an in his right armpit and hold it there by arm pressure alone while inflicting the punishment. If he drops it, he's in trouble. Practice it. Try to really whip someone with a copy of the Bible under your armpit.

Does abuse take place? Yes. Are there miscarriages of justice? Yes. Do people confuse culture with religion, such as with FGM? Yes. But do these things also happen in the West, and in America. Of course they do. Dickens thought our prison system was barbaric. Skousen actually pointed to a study in Canada where prisoners preferred physical punishment to spending time in prison. All kinds of things happen to a prisoner behind bars, things far worse than the crime deserves. But Amercans don't care--after all, all felons are the same and if you did the crime you deserve what you get as long as it's out fo the public eye. Throw 'em prison and throw away they key. If they are sodomized or killed well . . . they shouldn't have broken the law. Fundamentalist Jews have told me that proselyting of Jews by Christians is worse than what Hitler did because Hitler only destroyed the body while what the Christians are doing destroys the soul.

Ok, sorry for the soapbox. Fortunately, no one will ever read this. But if any of you do read this, thanks again for the photos John123 and Pam and Godless, you're absolutely right about Muslims. Most of them are actually more Christian, shall we say, in terms of how they live,than are most Christians I know in the West.

I read every word. Thank you so much for this well thought out post. My son-in-law is Muslim and he is a wonderful, good man. I'm proud to call him son. He just became a citizen two years ago. Great guy.

[pam]

I thank you as well Sean and I too read every word.

[ThePassenger]

I remember a public execution in Saudi Arabia, after one man dared to fall in love with one princesse of the royal family. It's about twenty years ago. He and his friend(s) got amputated their arms (!) (by physicians) and, set under drugs, then got beheaded. Nice county. I never will forget about that. It was here in Germany reported at that time. And women? They could get stoned to death or hanged, like in Iran (there was one video on you tube that showed the real hanging of one women and two men at the same time). The woman was sentenced, because she had sexual relationship with another woman (lesbian). Nice countries. Nice faith. Nice guys.

[ThePassenger]

And concerning demographics: one day, not so far away in future, when their oil recources will have ended, an when water will be more than gold in their areas, then, then they will become again as what they have startet once in the past: bedouines. Poor bedouines. I believe there will be a demographic self-regulation process one day not far away in the future. I won't be too afraid of pessimistic demographic "forecasts" in connection with religious developement. Let's wait and see. I don't think the bad luck should be on the right ones. There is One who cares.

[Sean1427]

Thanks for your response, Passenger, to what I wrote. But in fairness I think I need to respond to what your wrote as well. In my post regarding Saudi Arabia where I described certain aspects of Sharia as practiced in Saudi, I also pointed out that there were obviously abuses, miscarriages of justice and people who confuse culture with religion. I also pointed out that this is so with every government and religion. I should also add the obvious, that all societies have those who care not about the law, the values of their nation, or their religion. These criminals sometimes wear untrimmed beards, run around in sandals, wear funny clothes, and justify the evil they do in the name of religion. But other criminals have degrees from top universities, wear three-piece suits, are smooth talkers, and are good at justifying the evil they do by using noble words and appeals to religion or the flag.

Regarding Saudi Arabia, however, I am very impressed with how far the Saudis have come as a nation in such a short time. Moreover, as an American I have to remember that it took my Anglo-American ancestors 800 years to get to the point we, in America, are today in terms of our view on government. Saudis have come a long way given they’ve only been a nation for less than 80 years. I notice that you give your location as Germany. While you may or may not be German, let’s use Germany for the views I’ll express herein. But first, let me address the thoughts I had when your referenced the video known in English as “Death of a Princess,” which aired in 1980, 30 years ago.

At that time, Saudi Arabia had been a country for 48 years, very young compared to Germany. And while there has been debate as to the accuracy of what was portrayed in the video and what was reported to also have occurred but was not shown in the video, let us assume that all of it is accurate, including not just her beheading but also the drugging, amputation and beheading of her lover and friends involved. Moreover, let me stipulate that beheading and amputation still occur in Saudi Arabia as a legal punishment under Islamic law. That said, let us remember that beheading was a legal form of execution in Europe as late as 1981, which is the year France, whose official method of execution was beheading, outlawed the death penalty altogether. In fact, the last beheading in Europe took place in France in 1977, about the same time the Saudi princess, her lover, and friends were beheaded. (Ironically, I think the man beheaded in France might have been Muslim given his name.) This, of course, brings us to Germany. Germany has a long history as a nation. Germany was a tremendous world cultural center and has left all of us a wonderful legacy. Germany was also Christian, and I suspect most Germans still believe it is a Christian nation. And yet from 1871 to 1945 one of Germany’s legal methods of execution was beheading. Moreover, from 1933-1945 beheading was reserved for convicted criminals while political enemies were shot or hung. Nazi war records indicate that during these latter set of years, at least 16,500 were executed in Germany by beheading. And while I don’t know what the crimes were for those beheaded in Germany during these years, I suspect that many of them involve crimes similar to or far less serious than those you mentioned in your first post. Also, stoning as well as the death penalty for homosexuality and adultery are right out of the Old Testament and are punishments decreed by God. Hence, whether we agree with any of these or not, almost all these things can be found in the Christian world’s most sacred record. Moreover, if you were unfortunate enough to be a gay, a Jew or one of the many others who were sent to the concentration camps during WW II, being beheaded could easily be considered an act of kindness. And this all occurred during the lives of many still living and in a very well-educated, highly cultured, Christian nation known as Germany.

So what do we do? And where do we draw the line? After all, if we choose to condemn an entire people, nation, or religion based on the evil acts done by a minority, or if we choose to do the same for what those of “their kind” did 30 years ago, then aren’t we equally justified in going back 35 or 40 years earlier than 1980 and condemning all modern Germans for what happened fairly recently? If this is the game we choose to play, we all lose. Personal integrity and consistency require that we judge all the same way in this kind of game. And if this is our game, then Germans who choose to play it have no right to protest when non-Germans look at German history in the first half of the 20th century and say as you said about Muslims and those of Muslim nations: "Nice countries. Nice faith, Nice guys."

Yet I suggest that this is not the game to play. We all lose because all us have a present and a past that includes both good and evil. I personally believe it is wrong to keep throwing Hitler and the horrors and barbarities of Nazi Germany in the faces of contemporary Germans. Germans today are not responsible for what happened in those ugly years. Nor were the Germans then completely responsible for all that happened. There was a lot of blame to go around in both Germany and among the other nations of the time. Also, countries are like individuals in some ways--in life none of us start out at the same starting line nor do we all have the same advantages. Some are blessed with a lot; others are blessed with little. What matters is how well we do with what we have. Saudis have had a mere 80 years compared to my Anglo-American heritage of 800 years the German heritage of at least as much.

Related to this is my belief that where much is given to an individual or a nation, more is expected. Hence, I expect far more from Americans and Germans than I do from the Saudis. They’re still in the process of learning much of what we in the West seem to be forgetting. Will they ever get it right as nations? I don’t know. Have we got it right as nations? I doubt it, and as I look at my own land and those nations of Europe, it seems to me that we’ve been selling a lot of our heritage for a pot of porridge. While Muslim nations are at the bottom of the ladder of freedom, independence, and certain universal values struggling to work their way up, many of the nations in the West have been at the top of the same ladder but are doing their best to work their way down.

One of my favorite books is “Man’s Search for Meaning” by Viktor Frankl, the famous Austrian neurologist and psychiatrist. In this book he speaks of the lessons he learned during his time, as Jew, in Nazi Germany’s concentration camps, where he lost all his family. He wrote that one of the greatest lessons he learned from his experience was that there are no good people or bad people. Rather, there are simply good individuals and bad individuals among all nations, races, religions and people. He pointed out how a German doctor in his camp spent his own money and risked his life and that of his family to purchase and smuggle in medicine for the inmates. When American forces liberated the camp, inmates protected this German doctor from the Americans until the latter promised no harm would come to him. But Viktor Frankl also pointed at some of the worst individuals in the camp were fellow Jews. The same lesson is there for all of us. But whether we learn this lesson is based on the choices we make.

I apologize for the length of this, but I felt the need to share my thoughts as I read and thought about your post.