Please help me to avoid thinking of Christ as a robot....

[PeterRiley]

Since Jesus was the first born of all the spirits in heaven, Heavenly Father obviously intended for him to aspire to great heights. My question is if Jesus really had a choice to fulfill his mission? Obviously he could at any time make a mistake if he wanted to, but his genes dictate otherwise. If he was the first born, Heavenly Father obviously knew he would be perfect. I want to appreciate Christ more, but I feel as though he has essentially been created as a "robot," and I hate feeling this way. It would make much more sense if Heavenly Father hand-picked the most noble spirit out of all the spirits he created, then I could see Christ as getting to where he is on his won merits. For what it's worth, I have been a member of the church all my life, served a mission, have served faithfully in calling such as Elder's Quorum president, etc; I am familiar with church doctrine, have a testimony, but this has been nagging me for yrs now. Thanks for your input.

[Just_A_Guy]

Just because I see a post you created on LDS.net, does that mean I've forced you to create that post?

Same thing with God and Jesus' ministry (or any other future event): the fact that He sees it happening, doesn't mean He's forcing it to happen.

[Honor]

I can understand why this is troubling you. I don't claim to be an LDS scholar. I don't even usually enjoy getting into lengthy discussions about hotbed gospel topics, but I thought I'd just share what came to mind when I read your post, and hope that others will be able to shed more light with their understanding. Christ chose when he stepped forward and said, "Here I am. Send me." His view of the eternities, even while here in mortality wasn't veiled. He chose his mission. The more of my life I live, the more I have come to believe that this life is all about self mastery. I think that we will always have our agency, but it will be those who choose to live with God that ultimately will. I really hope that you find an answer to what's troubling you, even if it's simply peaceful reassurance from our Heavenly Father. I know that I haven't always found answers, but when I seek, I've always found peace.

[ozzy]

One thing that Christ had that we didn't, as he was the firstborn in the spirit world, is lots of experience with all of us. Something I have noticed with large families is that the oldest children seem to assume responsibility early and generally care more for the younger kids than the younger kids do for each other. I am generalizing, but it is a trend I have noticed. Christ was the oldest of trillions and has experience with every one of us. I am pretty certain that this would grant him profound love that is even greater than anything we are capable of (hence christlike love). That love is what drew him to offer himself.

[Clary]

Thats an understandable concern. I can see where you're coming from. I don't know if I have any thoughts that will be helpful to you, but I have considered this before. There is very little we know, or that has been revealed about the pre-mortal life. It is difficult to make too many assumptions. But we do know that we exercised agency in pre-mortality. We do know that God did see those that were noble and less noble. It is hard to say how, when, or why Christ was the way He was. It's probably not best to assume that God decided to make His firstborn perfect, but not the rest.... I feel it is still sound to believe that Christ was the way He was because of His own agency.

You're obviously familiar with the scripture that "many are called, but few are chosen." I would assume it would be the same with Christ, as it is with any of us who are given great callings. God knows our potential, and has desires for us to live up to them, we are therefore called, but in order to be chosen we must be faithful to that calling. Certainly this is the case with Christ. Christ is not, and was not perfect simply because God made Him in a way that He could not fail, but because He fully lived up to that calling. We could probably compare this to those who receive their calling and election made sure. Perhaps Christ "made His calling and election sure" in pre-mortality, had proven Himself so surely that even before entering mortality He had obtained the status of a god before He ever came to earth. The same might be said for the Holy Ghost Who has the title of a god.

The question then becomes less whether Christ was created as a robot that could not vary from what God had created Him to do, but rather goes back to the very nature of godhood. We could likewise ask if God the Father is a robot because He does not/will not change or do anything wrong. It is not because He was forced, but rather because He exercised His agency to a point where He will not because it is now against the nature He has chosen for Himself. Certainly this was the case with Christ. Christ could have chosen at any point to shirk His duty, and calling, but He chose not to because His nature had already become the same nature as His Father.

We simply do not know all that happened in pre-mortality. We have no idea if there was agency exercised by intelligences before becoming spiritually begotten by the Father. For all we know Christ as an intelligence progressed to a point where God was sure of His success and therefore chose Him to be the First-Born? Hard to say. Basically I feel like I'm rambling, and probably not being that helpful, but I guess the bottom line for me is that the knowledge we have on the subject is too limited to understand how it all worked out, but I do believe it is important to know that God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are gods, and that they obtained such a position by exercising agency, not because they were "made" not to fail. It is ultimately the same for us. We are created in God's image with the potential to be the same. But we must exercise our agency. Just because some have already achieved that potential does not mean they are robots, or that they were unfairly "given" certain qualifications. Perhaps some day in the eternities when we have proven our faithfulness, and obtain the nature of god, others might wonder if we are robots, if we were created not to fail.......

Sorry so longwinded. Hope that something I wrote might trigger some thoughts that might be helpful. Good luck :)

[marts1]

Took me years in the church to figure out why I wasn't feeling very positive or spiritual to the point that I wanted. When I made the commitment to read the scriptures more diligently, it made huge difference for me.

[mikbone]

I had similar doubts that led me to a long line of study and eventual understanding.

My new perspective on Jehovah is exactly what you seem to be seeking. I believe that Jehovah was indeed hand picked to be in his position because of his merits and not his position of birth.

These ideas are definitely not mainstream LDS beliefs, but in my mind they are consistent with the standard works and Latter-Day Prophets.

We have always been told that Jehovah was the Firstborn in the Spirit. Most members assume that this means that when Elohim started to create spiritual offspring that Jehovah was the first creation. The best scripture that we have concerning the Firstborn status of Jehovah is:

D&C 93:21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn.

There are 2 ways that someone can be spiritually born:

1) Elohim (Heavenly Father and Mother) created spiritual children.

2) Mosiah 5:7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters. D&C 93:22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn.

So although I am a spirit child of Elohim. I have made a covenant with Christ and have been spiritually reborn as his son. I hope that I will be able to become a member of the Church of the Firstborn.

So what is greater? Being a spiritual child of Elohim or being spiritually reborn as a son of Christ and becoming a member of the Chruch of the Firstborn???

I believe that Jehovah is the Firstborn because he was spiritual reborn as a son of Elohim. His relationship to Elohim is ontologically different than the relationship that we have with Elohim.

Edited February 20, 2010 by mikbone

[JohnOF123]

I know we have different viewpoints on things, but I thought this video might help display God's love in His choice of dying for your sins.

I hope that relates to your question and seems to apply to both of us.

[Moksha]

Repent or Exterminate!!!

[PeterRiley]

You all make some good points. I like the theory that the term firstborn could be meant as a figurative term. But then I read this on this website: What does it mean that Jesus is the Firstborn? | Jesus Christ

In 1909, the governing body of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon Church) issued a statement that explains this idea further: “The Father of Jesus is our Father also. Jesus himself taught this truth, when He instructed His disciples how to pray: ‘Our Father which art in heaven,’ etc. Jesus, however, is the firstborn among all the sons of God–the first begotten in the spirit, and the only begotten in the flesh. He is our elder brother, and we, like Him are in the image of God.” (The First Presidency [Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, Anthon H. Lund], “The Origin of Man,” Improvement Era, November 1909, 75-81).

What do you all think about this?

Regarding "intelligences" I am not really clear as to what they are, could you please clarify this for me-is a spirit made of a bunch of small things called intelligences which are essentially "spiritual cells?" If this is true, and these intelligences or spiritual cells have free agency, maybe Heavenly Father collected the "cream of the crop" intelligences and formed Christ's Spirit? I know I am getting a bit deep here but I am doing it for the purpose of enhancing my appreciation of Christ. Thanks for your thoughts, I appreciate it.

[mikbone]

The original and best description of intelligence is:

B. H. Roberts, "The Immortality of Man"

Its a good read. B. H. Roberts was in the quorum of the Seventy, and was a heck of a writer.

From what I gather, it seems that Brother Roberts is proposing that prior to a spirit child being born its soul originated as an intelligence.

Intelligence + Personage of Spirit created by immortal parents --> Spirit

Spirit + Physical body created by mortal parents --> Man

I think that most LDS members that have thought about the origin of Jehovah believe that:

1) Elohim chose the most intelligent intelligence from which to make the first spirit child - and that child became Jehovah.

2) Because Jehovah was the Firstborn, he was able to spend time with Elohim, exclusive of the presence of any other spirit children. We do not know how much time passed between the creation of Jehovah and the birth of the next spiritual child. It could have been seconds, or eons. But because Jehovah was so special he must have spent a vast amount of time with Elohim, getting an education which none of the rest of us recieved or were worthy to obtain.

Personally, I don't buy it.

In another commentary of B. H. Roberts found in the footnotes of the King Follett Discourse (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p.353 footnote #8) he writes:

It is the direct statement in the Book of Abraham [Abr 3:19] - accepted by the Church as scripture - that there are differences in the intelligences that exist, that some are more intelligent than others; and that God is "more intelligent than them all".* I believe that this means more than that God is more intelligent than any other one of the intelligences.* It means that he is more intelligent than all of the other intelligences combined. His intelligence is greater than that of the mass.

I have to agree with Brother Roberts here. Jehovah was more intelligent than the rest of us combined. That kind of knowledge does not come from teaching. It can only come from experience.

Adam (Michael) was amazing. I refuse to believe that Jehovah was so far ahead of everyone else just because of being a more intelligent intelligence. Or of having spent more time with God.

I believe that Jehovah was much much more.

Edited February 22, 2010 by mikbone

[CrimsonKairos]

I think that most LDS members that have thought about the origin of Jehovah believe that:

1) Elohim chose the most intelligent intelligence from which to make the first spirit child - and that child became Jehovah.

2) Because Jehovah was the Firstborn, he was able to spend time with Elohim, exclusive of the presence of any other spirit children...because Jehovah was so special he must have spent a vast amount of time with Elohim, getting an education which none of the rest of us recieved or were worthy to obtain.

I think #1 is different. I think Heavenly Father chose Christ's "consciousness" to be the first joined with a spirit body because of Christ's innate goodness and submissiveness.

God found Himself in the midst of glory and intelligences, and Christ's was the only one that would always choose to obey the Father in all things. This the Father must have known via His omniscience.

So it doesn't matter how long Christ was with the Father before our "consciousnesses" received our spirit bodies. Christ's being the Firstborn reflects his inherent goodness and righteous desires which existed before the Father gave Christ a spirit body.

That kind of knowledge does not come from teaching. It can only come from experience.

This brings up an interesting issue regarding knowledge and omniscience. Christ was a God before he ever came to earth. He shared the omniscience of the Father and the Holy Ghost. Yet Jesus had never experienced crucifixion until he came to earth as a mortal. So would you say Jesus didn't know what being crucified felt like until he underwent it, or would you say that God's omniscience embraces all knowledge/feelings/experiences in a way that mortals cannot fathom?

This is beside the point of the necessity of Christ dying for our sins. I ask the above because you say Christ had to have "experience" to be more "intelligent" than all of us combined. Isn't that a bit limiting? Isn't it conceivable that there are spiritual and heavenly vehicles of learning that make the speed of light seem like a slug? I guess the answer is, "Yes, it is possible, but the scriptures give no indication of anything like that."

I refuse to believe that Jehovah was so far ahead of everyone else just because of being a more intelligent intelligence.

In mortal life, those with the greatest spiritual knowledge are also the most obedient. Thus, if Christ was obedient in all things from "day one" of his receiving a spirit body with new abilities and choices, then he would gain greater knowledge than anyone else by virtue of his goodness even if you or I had received our spirit bodies millions of years before Christ.

If: Goodness precedes spiritual advancement and knowledge; and,

If: A fulness of goodness precedes a fulness of spiritual knowledge and advancement; and,

If: Jesus was the only spirit child of the Father who was fully good in every way at all times;

Then: Jesus was the only spirit child of the Father to fully advance and receive all spiritual knowledge.

All of us sinned in some way or other in premortality (D&C 93:38); none of us obeyed perfectly aside from Jesus. Jesus, as the only premortally and mortally sinless child of God the Father (D&C 45:4), was literally the only one who had wholly innocent blood that could be shed by wicked men for the sins of the world (D&C 21:9; 27:2)

Just a personal pet peeve of mine: People often refer to children being killed as "innocent blood being shed" but in the grand scheme of things (premortal, mortal and postmortal being taken into account) even children in this world had previously sinned in some capacity premortally as spirit beings (again, D&C 93:38).

So if by "innocent" we mean "innocent of sin, not guilty of disobedience" then Jesus Christ is the only child of God who deserves the title "innocent". Just a technical detail but one that has to do with the atonement. In discussing the atonement, I often hear people say, "What was so great about Christ's death? Plenty of kids have been raped, tortured, eaten, murdered, suffered far worse things than crucifixion; why isn't their death more horrible than Jesus Christ's death?"

The answer according to the scriptures, of course, is that Jesus is the only child of God who never sinned, who is truly innocent in every meaning of the word, and hence, for Jesus to be executed for allegedly committing the sin of blasphemy is the ultimate miscarriage of justice, the ultimate unjust act that can possibly be committed: the only sinless person being killed for sinning!

I believe that Jehovah was much much more.

In what way?

Edited February 22, 2010 by CrimsonKairos

[mikbone]

I think #1 is different. I think Heavenly Father chose Christ's "consciousness" to be the first joined with a spirit body because of Christ's innate goodness and submissiveness.

Fair enough. This is what many believe. Dosen't matter if you call it intelligence, "consciousness", light, pre-spirit essence, etc... You believe that Jehovah was special because he was the embodiment of good and submissive. Correct?

This brings up an interesting issue regarding knowledge and omniscience. Christ was a God before he ever came to earth. He shared the omniscience of the Father and the Holy Ghost. Yet Jesus had never experienced crucifixion until he came to earth as a mortal. So would you say Jesus didn't know what being crucified felt like until he underwent it, or would you say that God's omniscience embraces all knowledge/feelings/experiences in a way that mortals cannot fathom?

1) Jehovah was God during the pre-existence. He was vastly different than everyone else. In Abraham 3:24 we learn that he is described as "one among them that was like unto God"

2) You say that Jehovah never experienced crucifixtion, but from John 5:19 we can infer that Jehovah had wittnessed the Father's Atonement. I don't believe that anyone else that was in our pre-existence had wittnessed the Father's Atonement. (I'm unsure about the Holy Ghost to tell you the truth though.)

You say Christ had to have "experience" to be more "intelligent" than all of us combined. Isn't that a bit limiting? Isn't it conceivable that there are spiritual and heavenly vehicles of learning that make the speed of light seem like a slug? I guess the answer is, "Yes, it is possible, but the scriptures give no indication of anything like that."

There is no substitute for experience. We came to Earth to learn through experience. If there was an easier way I'm sure that God would have given us that opportunity. Lucifer argued for an 'easier' salvation. I do not believe that there are shortcuts to salvation. You don't either btw. :)

In mortal life, those with the greatest spiritual knowledge are also the most obedient. Thus, if Christ was obedient in all things from "day one" of his receiving a spirit body with new abilities and choices, then he would gain greater knowledge than anyone else by virtue of his goodness even if you or I had received our spirit bodies millions of years before Christ.

If: Goodness precedes spiritual advancement and knowledge; and,

If: A fulness of goodness precedes a fulness of spiritual knowledge and advancement; and,

If: Jesus was the only spirit child of the Father who was fully good in every way at all times;

Then: Jesus was the only spirit child of the Father to fully advance and receive all spiritual knowledge.

I've heard the arguement. It just dosen't satisfy me.

[deseretgov]

Regarding "intelligences" I am not really clear as to what they are, could you please clarify this for me-is a spirit made of a bunch of small things called intelligences which are essentially "spiritual cells?" If this is true, and these intelligences or spiritual cells have free agency, maybe Heavenly Father collected the "cream of the crop" intelligences and formed Christ's Spirit? I know I am getting a bit deep here but I am doing it for the purpose of enhancing my appreciation of Christ. Thanks for your thoughts, I appreciate it.

The way I visualize intelligences is tiny points of energy. I agree with this:

Intelligence + Personage of Spirit created by immortal parents --> Spirit

Spirit + Physical body created by mortal parents --> Man

Joseph Smith said that Spirits are just finer forms of matter. And there are really only two things that exist in the universe, matter and energy. Neither can be created only converted.

Wether or not the Jehovah intelligence was more intelligent that all the other intelligences, or if he was the most intelligent of all the intelligences, it is really irrelevant. Either way the Jehovah intelligence was at the top.

So it doesn't matter how long Christ was with the Father before our "consciousnesses" received our spirit bodies. Christ's being the Firstborn reflects his inherent goodness and righteous desires which existed before the Father gave Christ a spirit body.

Agreed.

This brings up an interesting issue regarding knowledge and omniscience. Christ was a God before he ever came to earth.

I don't agree. One must first have a perfect immortal physical body before one can become a God. Christ was not a God. But He was the elected one of all the spirit children. And because of that He was given a special place inhe Godhead.

Of course it's all really relative anyway. Christ is a sense is God becaause He perfectly represents God on the earth. So basically if you are dealing with Christ you are dealing with God. Also I would say that Christ could be classified as a God because He has been resurrected. But I would still say that Christ is not a God becuase he probably has not yet become the God of His own universe. He is still functioning as God's representative here on earth. It's a lot more complicated than that but that's the jist of it.

He shared the omniscience of the Father and the Holy Ghost.

Disagree. christ and the Holy Ghost are not omniscient. Only God the Father is ominscient.

Yet Jesus had never experienced crucifixion until he came to earth as a mortal. So would you say Jesus didn't know what being crucified felt like until he underwent it,

Agree. He didn'tknow what it would feel like. Only Physical bodies can "feel."

or would you say that God's omniscience embraces all knowledge/feelings/experiences in a way that mortals cannot fathom?

I agree.

Isn't it conceivable that there are spiritual and heavenly vehicles of learning that make the speed of light seem like a slug?

I agree.

Then: Jesus was the only spirit child of the Father to fully advance and receive all spiritual knowledge.

Diagree. We all recieved as much knowledge as possible in the Premortal world. That is why God brought forward the Planof Salvation so that we could continue our progression.

All of us sinned in some way or other in premortality (D&C 93:38);

Disagree.

none of us obeyed perfectly aside from Jesus. Jesus, as the only premortally and mortally sinless child of God the Father (D&C 45:4), was literally the only one who had wholly innocent blood that could be shed by wicked men for the sins of the world (D&C 21:9; 27:2)

God asked who He should send. The field was open to anyone who wanted it.

Just a personal pet peeve of mine: People often refer to children being killed as "innocent blood being shed" but in the grand scheme of things (premortal, mortal and postmortal being taken into account) even children in this world had previously sinned in some capacity premortally as spirit beings (again, D&C 93:38).

Disagree.

So if by "innocent" we mean "innocent of sin, not guilty of disobedience" then Jesus Christ is the only child of God who deserves the title "innocent". Just a technical detail but one that has to do with the atonement. In discussing the atonement, I often hear people say, "What was so great about Christ's death? Plenty of kids have been raped, tortured, eaten, murdered, suffered far worse things than crucifixion; why isn't their death more horrible than Jesus Christ's death?"

The answer according to the scriptures, of course, is that Jesus is the only child of God who never sinned, who is truly innocent in every meaning of the word, and hence, for Jesus to be executed for allegedly committing the sin of blasphemy is the ultimate miscarriage of justice, the ultimate unjust act that can possibly be committed: the only sinless person being killed for sinning!

The fact the Christ was sinless and He died is pointless if you leave out the atonement. Christ had to be innocent AND punished for mankind's sins. The price for our sins had to be paid. We could pay for our own sins but the result of that punishment would bepointless because it would render us incapable of returning to God anyway. Only through Crist can our sins be paid for AND we can return to Heavenly Father.

So Yes I do believe little Children are innocent. Truely 100% innocent. But what makes their deaths different than Christ's is that Christ was punished for all mankind. Also another note, Christ wasn't killed He gave up his own life. An important distinction. Because of Christ's divine nature he was the only person who could willfully seperate His body and Spirit. That is also why He was the first to be resurrected. He was the only one capable of willfully doing it.

[rameumptom]

Jesus volunteered for the job of Savior. He knew it was his mission. He has/had agency just like you and me. He was sorely tempted by Satan. The difference is, he did not give in to the temptations. This was his choice, not a robotic nature.

Luke 22 gives us a very true example of how it worked. Jesus did not want to go through the pains of Gethsemane, but stated, "Father, if thou wilt, let this pass. Nonetheless, not my will, but thine, be done." These are not the words of a robot. These are the words of a suffering servant. He endured, even though he did not want to go through it.

That is what makes the atonement so spectacular. He CHOSE to go through it all, for us. He didn't let us down. This is why Jesus deserves our eternal thanks and glory. It was such an amazing accomplishment. He could have failed. He could have saved himself. But he chose to save all of us.

And I hope we can use his example to walk in his footsteps.

[Blackmarch]

Since Jesus was the first born of all the spirits in heaven, Heavenly Father obviously intended for him to aspire to great heights. My question is if Jesus really had a choice to fulfill his mission? Obviously he could at any time make a mistake if he wanted to, but his genes dictate otherwise. If he was the first born, Heavenly Father obviously knew he would be perfect. I want to appreciate Christ more, but I feel as though he has essentially been created as a "robot," and I hate feeling this way. It would make much more sense if Heavenly Father hand-picked the most noble spirit out of all the spirits he created, then I could see Christ as getting to where he is on his won merits. For what it's worth, I have been a member of the church all my life, served a mission, have served faithfully in calling such as Elder's Quorum president, etc; I am familiar with church doctrine, have a testimony, but this has been nagging me for yrs now. Thanks for your input.

christ is aware of the other options open to him, and has the knowledge and understanding why they should not be taken. Robots do not have this.

[CrimsonKairos]

You believe that Jehovah was special because he was the embodiment of good and submissive. Correct?

Pretty much. Not so much that he embodied goodness and submissiveness as much as he was fully good and submissive. Maybe I'm getting semantic now.

1) Jehovah was God during the pre-existence. He was vastly different than everyone else. In Abraham 3:24 we learn that he is described as "one among them that was like unto God"

And why was he like unto God? Godhood is conferred on the sanctified, righteous, obedient beings in eternity. No physical body required (refer to the Holy Ghost). So because Jesus always obeyed the Father he was the only child of God in premortality to advance to the point of perfection of attributes that the Father possesses and receive Godhood with its attendant knowledge, power and authority.

2) You say that Jehovah never experienced crucifixtion, but from John 5:19 we can infer that Jehovah had wittnessed the Father's Atonement.

You could infer that, but that's the point: that inference can be true or false but there is no other clarifying scripture which suggests one inference over another. Another reasonable inference is that Jesus is saying the Father "showed" him (via vision or whatever means of communication is available to perfect beings) what Jesus would have to do on earth to fulfill his duty as the One Anointed to be our Savior.

There is no substitute for experience. We came to Earth to learn through experience.

But again, you're talking about us and as you said, Jesus is vastly different from us in terms of nature, goodness, obedience, sinlessness, et al. Just because we require experience to grow and become perfect like the Father doesn't mean Jesus was limited similarly. In fact I think we could say that what we required due to our imperfect obedience was precisely what Jesus did not require because he WAS perfectly obedient.

I don't agree. One must first have a perfect immortal physical body before one can become a God. Christ was not a God.

I'm afraid you are incorrect on both counts. First, the Holy Ghost is a God yet he lacks a physical body let alone a perfect one (see D&C 130), so a spirit being can indeed be a God. Second, the scriptures are clear that Jehovah was a God; Paul identifies Jesus as Jehovah (1 Cor. 10:4) of the Old Testament (back before Christ had a physical body). The scriptures simply don't support what you said.

But I would still say that Christ is not a God becuase he probably has not yet become the God of His own universe.

Where in scripture do we learn that the definition of Godhood is having "your own universe?" Do the scriptures not teach that Godhood is a matter of divine attributes developed to their fullest, of ordinances undergone, and of transforming grace applied?

Disagree. christ and the Holy Ghost are not omniscient. Only God the Father is ominscient.

Read 2 Nephi 9:19-21 which teaches several things: Christ was a God before his mortal birth; Christ as a God before his mortal birth "knoweth all things". You have some peculiar beliefs that I have not found in scripture. What are you basing your beliefs on exactly?

Diagree [that Jesus fully advanced and received all spiritual knowledge in premortality]. We all recieved as much knowledge as possible in the Premortal world. That is why God brought forward the Planof Salvation so that we could continue our progression.

What scriptures persuade you that Jesus did not fully advance in premortality, and receive a fulness of spiritual knowledge and power? The Plan of Salvation was for sinners and imperfectly obedient children who needed a shaping and growing experience to help them become like the Father and Son. Jesus did not need a Savior, Jesus did not need to learn from imperfect choices, Jesus did not need to develop his faith and obedience. We did.

Disagree [that we all sinned in some way in premortality].

What scripture or teaching do you base your disagreement on?

God asked who He should send. The field was open to anyone who wanted it.

Really? The sacrifice for sin had to be sinless. Christ himself points this out in the all of the standard works , e.g. Ex. 12:5; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 1:19; Mosiah 3:15; D&C 45:4...

Disagree.

You sure don't offer much in the way of explaining your views other than to say, "Disagree." Doesn't exactly lend itself to mutual understanding. Care to expand on your views?

The fact the Christ was sinless and He died is pointless if you leave out the atonement.

The scriptures explicitly teach that Christ's unjust death was the atonement. Here are just a few: Mosiah 15:12; Hel. 14:14-18; D&C 21:9; 34:3; 38:4; 46:13; 54:1; 76:40-42, 69; 138:2, 35.

Christ had to be innocent AND punished for mankind's sins.

I thought you disagreed that Christ had to be sinless. And the scriptures teach that Christ was slain/lifted up/crucified for the sins of the world. Is not spiritual separation from God and crucifixion a punishment made necessary by our sins?

So Yes I do believe little Children are innocent. Truely 100% innocent.

So you don't believe D&C 93:38? It says:

Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.

It says we became innocent again in our infant state thanks to the atonement. If we had to be made innocent again, it means we at some point in premortality disobeyed, rebelled, were guilty of sin and lost that innocence.

Christ was the only one who never sinned against God in the First or Second Estate.

Also another note, Christ wasn't killed He gave up his own life.

Semantics, friend. Christ "gave up the ghost" but only after he was crucified by sinful men. He didn't nail himself to the cross, he didn't commit suicide.

He allowed his body to reach the point where death would have claimed a normal mortal, and only then did he willfully separate his spirit from his body. That has little to do with how the atonement makes remission of sins possible (not remission of punishment for sin, an entirely different goal).

[Seminarysnoozer]

Intelligence + Personage of Spirit created by immortal parents --> Spirit

Spirit + Physical body created by mortal parents --> Man

I guess the only thing I would change about the above model is that it takes 'intelligence' to make a 'personage of spirit.' In other words there should be an arrow between the first two, not a +. Otherwise, what is a personage of spirit made out of?

I think most LDS would agree with this model for the most part as do I but the biggest divider in this discussion, I think, is the very beginning which is what people think "intelligence" is. One either thinks its an organized material that makes up some individual unit or one thinks its uniform material. I think it, as Joseph Smith describes it, is finer material than what we have here. That being the case, I can't see how one "intelligence" (or pre-spirit, whatever you want to call it) is any different than any other intelligence. This is finer material than anything we have here, meaning also there is no variability in it. It would be like saying I am going to make the best sugar possible by choosing the best carbon atoms. All carbon atoms are the same (as far as this discussion goes). Picking a better grouping of carbon atoms wouldn't necessarily make a better human body for example. I can't see how the prowess of the Spirit has anything to do with the particular choosing of 'intelligence' material before it is formed. That doesn't make sense to me. Otherwise, you would have to ask, who organized that intelligence to make some better than another? Variability in anything is made by something else. Uniformity, seems to me, to be more likely when it is untouched and in its original form. ... the beginning of the above equation, starting from scratch. Unless, there is another formula before that one.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Seminarysnoozer

[Elgama]

what happens when you pray? how do you interact with Him? for me my Saviour is my brother and friend.

I have something in my life I was foreordained to do because Heavenly Father knew I was best suited for the job - but there is no reason why I can't wimp out

[mikbone]

I think it, as Joseph Smith describes it, is finer material than what we have here. That being the case, I can't see how one "intelligence" (or pre-spirit, whatever you want to call it) is any different than any other intelligence. This is finer material than anything we have here, meaning also there is no variability in it. It would be like saying I am going to make the best sugar possible by choosing the best carbon atoms.

I absolutely love your explanation. I had never thought of it like that.

I imagined that Joseph Smith's 'finer material' was a form of light. The physical material that mankind has manipulated over the millennia and during the lifetime of Joseph Smith was solid material with mass. I had assumed that this 'finer material' was not a more elementary particle, but a different type of organized material: photons instead of atoms.

Another assumption that I had made was that these 'intelligences' had gone through a testing or probationary period in which they graded themselves some greater and some lesser. I surmised that during this transformation from intelligence--> spirit was the moment when gender and species were assigned. Plants, animals, Man, and even the Earth has a spirit. Naturally, the intelligences that were chosen to become spirit children of God were the most noble of the intelligences...

It would seem that some people believe that the intelligence that became Jehovah was an order of magnitude different than the intelligences that were used to create every other soul that was in our pre-existence. That in effect, the difference between Jehovah and our species is as different as the gulf between mankind and the beasts.

I believe that Elohim, Jehovah, and mankind are of the same species btw.

Edited February 23, 2010 by mikbone

[Seminarysnoozer]

There is also a lot of mixing up of terms I hear. There is 'intelligence' as the pre-organized material and then there is 'intelligences' which are the organized form of the original material. When the scriptures are talking about the 'noble and great ones' it is referring to the organized form of the intelligences, in other words, spirits. There is no discussion of the pre-organized material being of different strengths or values that I see in the scriptures or anywhere else.

As Harold B. Lee explains, "Now that is the first truth that we learn—that there was an organized intelligence that was called … a spirit. Here the Lord [Jehovah], who was that great illustrious spirit like unto God [the Father], came among those organized intelligences called spirits, and He said to them, We will make an earth whereon you as spirits may dwell, and you who live worthy here in the spirit world can go down upon that earth and be added upon. And so those spirits who kept their faith, shall I say, or were worthy, were permitted to come on the earth and have added to their spiritual body, a physical body here on this earth. … The fact that you and I are here on this earth with a physical body is an evidence that we were among those who kept our first estate; we passed the test and were permitted to come here. If we hadn’t passed the test we wouldn’t be here; we would be down with Satan trying to tempt the ones who had a body. …"

[mikbone]

There is also a lot of mixing up of terms I hear. There is 'intelligence' as the pre-organized material and then there is 'intelligences' which are the organized form of the original material.

I totally agree.

The term intelligence that B. H. Roberts defines in his treatise The Immortality of Man describes the stuff that was used by God the Father to organize Spirits.

When the term intelligence is used in the scripture like D&C 93:29 or Abraham 3:22 it obviously is describing the pre-mortal spirits. I can't find direct evidence of Joseph Smith ever describing intelligence in the format that B.H. Roberts has.

Unfortunately, B.H. Roberts defination for the term intelligence has taken a foothold in the LDS venacular. I wish he would have used a different term but he didn't. Logically though if Elohim created spirit children and he did not create them from nothing then there must have been some pre-organized material.

B. H. Roberts is the first to give this idea of pre-organized material a defination so I use his term.

How do you like the zeroth estate?

Edited February 23, 2010 by mikbone

[Just_A_Guy]

Re Christ as firstborn:

I've been chasing this quote for months and finally found it:

And the oldest son has always had the privilege of being ordained, appointed and called to be the heir of the family if he does not rebel against the Father, and he is the Savior of the family.

--Brigham Young Addresses 2:230; cited online here in a discussion about Adam. Emphasis added.

[CrimsonKairos]

All this speculation amuses me immensely. Thanks.

[Seminarysnoozer]

All this speculation amuses me immensely. Thanks.

Wondering if your own speculation amuses you too. I find it interesting, not amusing. I find it interesting that you speculate there is a 'consciousness' without a body. That seems very strange to me. How can that be? please explain.

Seems you believe there is an organized consciousness that is taken and put in a spiritual body to make a 'spirit' based on your previous comments. I cannot comprehend a consciousness without a form, without a body. Of course, there are a lot of things that I can't understand but to me that would definitely fall under the category of speculation.

There is nothing that I can find that says making spirits is like pulling a cake mix off the shelf in a premixed package so that when God puts it together He knows He is going to get chocolate cake or vanilla cake or what have you. I tend to believe that the process of making spirits is based on truth and laws that cannot be manipulated in such a way, it can't be controlled. Otherwise, why didn't He make all spirits exactly like Jesus? It's because there are laws, 'God's way' or 'Intelligence' or 'light and truth' whatever you want to call it, that we cannot comprehend in this life.

There is nothing that I can find in the scriptures or from church authorities that implies that God made spirits the way they are on purpose. It seems the opposite, that they and we have agency even before this life to become valiant or not or anywhere in between. Whatever Jehova and Lucifer did to keep their first estate or not was not because God mixed together some pre-formed spiritual material in the right combination to make them turn out that way. It seems more likely that the process of spiritual reproduction is a random process allowing for the variety of spiritual prowess from valiant to thrown out. Otherwise you have to ask yourself, why would God purposely form a spirit being that He knew would be cast out? or become Lucifer? .... Maybe it's because that is what happens under the laws of 'intelligence' when spiritual offspring are formed and given their agency.

Agency is not robotic and yet it was a part of life in the pre-existence. Agency is not robotic, therefore 'intelligence' is not robotic. Jesus was and is an agent unto himself just like we are and just like the spirits that didn't get a body.

If God could pick from a grouping of pre-formed 'consciousness', you really think He picked some that He knew would be cast out of heaven? I have a hard time swallowing that concept.