Apologetics: Defenders of the Faith

[Moksha]

I have a hard time even understanding why someone would want to tell a person of a different faith that they are wrong. It is like something went awry in one of the stages of that person's development.

One item of advice I would give to any would be apologist is to be scrupulously honest in what you say in defense. Another item is that an offense in never a good defense.

[JohnOF123]

I have a hard time even understanding why someone would want to tell a person of a different faith that they are wrong.

I see where you are coming from Moksha. But typically an apologist is someone who proves or defends the faith, not necessarily just to tell someone they are wrong. I can see someone saying that, but it goes much deeper. We all need defenders of the faith.

There are many LDS apologist who user fairlds.org as a resource.

Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research (FAIR)

Just to name a couple

YouTube - answeringantimormons's Channel (Robert Vukich)

YouTube - mormonanswerman's Channel

I think if you looked into it, you might find that you would enjoy apologetics. (maybe) :)

[Moksha]

I think if you looked into it, you might find that you would enjoy apologetics. (maybe) :)

I once floated the idea on another site that I was an apologist. Some of those who knew and liked me suggested that I was very much not an apologist. What a brief career! Probably didn't think I displayed apologetic qualities.

[john doe]

There is nothing wrong with me asking what I have. I went about it in a kind, safe, sensitive and respectable manner. I understand this is not an apologist forum, but there are apologists here, and very talented ones.

I never said there was anything wrong with you asking what you have. I'm asking who you are recruiting for. You are asking for people to call in to radio shows, I'm asking which radio shows you want us to call. There is also nothing wrong with that, or even anything wrong with you answering that question.

Joe, you've asked if I have ties to anti-mormon literature,

No, I asked if you have been associating with anti-Mormons. I said nothing about the trash they call 'literature'. in fact, my exact quote was: "The only problem with a link would be if it has links to anti-LDS material. You don't have ties to people like that, do you?"

you've asked me whom I represent, you've given me your opinion on how the radio audience are like throwing pearls to swine, you've stereotyped a radio audience as only wanting to mock you,

Again, no I did not. I don't know who you represent or want apologists to call since you refuse to divulge their identity. But based on my past experience in thses kinds of things coupled with your refusal to say who they are, I am inclined to discourage anyone from participating. I don't know what the underlying agenda here is since you refuse to tell who they are. If there is no underlying theme to discredit LDS and our beliefs, then I see no logical reason why you would withhold that information.

and now you're telling me there are no apologist on lds.net and to go somewhere else because you don't like debates or apologetics.

Again, no, that's not what happened. I wish you wouldn't mischaracterize our interaction like that. I informed you that if you are looking for apologists, you will likely find more on another board.

I don't wish to argue, but I'm starting to feel that you seem to be trying to argue with me. I'm trying to answer your questions as peacefully as possible, not defeat you in an argument. I think there are probably positive opinions on here too.

I do not wish to argue either, but you have been invited to share who you are recruiting people to call, and have yet to do so. I don't know why you are being so secretive about this.

[JohnOF123]

Reposted:

I don't represent anyone. You make me sound like an agent .

Actually, there are about 3 different radio shows I know of that all need good people. But I don't represent anyone.

I enjoy listening to these debates just like anyone else. And much can be learned.

Since you've asked again, and are a moderator, the name of this one in particular is christian apologetics research ministries; the reason I didn't link, which is (i think) part of your question, was for reasons I mentioned earlier. That I'm not looking to send the public to apologetic or a challenging website. I was asking for strong defenders of the faith that enjoy debating and apologetics.

Are you an apologist Johndoe, or just curious?

Not a recruiter.

[JudoMinja]

I stated on the first page of this forum that I would possibly be interested in more information, and John did so in a message, so I don't think he is being secretive, just careful not to post the information in the open so people thinking they're ready and willing to participate in this don't stumble upon the link and get trampled because they really weren't ready.

Anyone interested in participating in something like this can easily do the same- make John aware of your interest, and you can communicate through messages to determine whether or not this is really something you want to do.

Again, I don't think he's being secretive. Just careful.

And a question: when I first looked at this topic, I didn't realize apologist was an actually classification, I thought it was just a descriptive word John was using to let us know what he was looking for. So, what exactly is an "apologist" anyway?

[Elphaba]

And a question: when I first looked at this topic, I didn't realize apologist was an actually classification, I thought it was just a descriptive word John was using to let us know what he was looking for. So, what exactly is an "apologist" anyway?

My small dictionary says an apologist is someone who "defends an ideaology or doctrine."

If you're interested in apologetics, the Mormon Apologetics Discussion Board is a good place to start.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

I don't think that there are any mainstream christian apologetic radio shows (or websites) that some LDS members wouldn't be quick to call anti-mormon. Therefore, it would be more respectful of me just to come out and ask for interested apologists, rather than openly listing websites that new LDS member could stumble upon. I'm not here to start trouble, but I would like to hear what very talented LDS people have to say on the radio, and I think many others would be also.

Okay, I can understand your caution. But John (not Joe--I'm sure a simple mistake), a moderator, has told you it is okay to post the radio stations' websites, so why not do so now?

And, no, I'm actually not strong like bull. However, some here would say I certainly like to talk a lot of bull.

Elphaba

[JohnOF123]

Thx Judo. I have only been messaged by you and one other person. But it looks like apologetics and debating are pretty touchy subjects by reading some posts. So I think I will just stop here and leave it at this. I want to encourage anybody who enjoys apologetics and defending their faith to be prepared to answer challenging questions by people. Your neighbor, your friend or a relative. Do I recommend this for all members, of course not. Many people here just wish to have a relationship with God and enjoy fellowship their their fellow Church members. I don't even suspect those people are interested on reading a thread about apologetics. However, many I see like to debate on forums (obviously) and elsewhere. To you I say, learn and defend, from whatever position you may be in. I am a strong believer that no matter what you believe, learn it, know it. I personally could not defend or even help an Islamic person until I studied their beliefs. I watched their debates, talked to their people and studied.

Look, if you're interested in learning, research. If your a seasoned apologist, or decent and want practice, contact any type you are knowledgeable in. If you are just curious, don't go on some radio station and get beat up. That's like jumping in a ring without any training. But this isn't about entertainment. It's about making a sound logical case to their audience. It's an opportunity to reach out to hundreds of interested people simultaneously. If your on YouTube and want to defend and reach out to Atheists, go and call the shows at TheAtheistExperience or Infidelguy. They have a huge audience in need. If you want to reach out to MainStr-Christians contact Carmvideos or DrOakley1689. They defend against many positions too. If you want to speak out to Muslims contact MuslimByChoice.

I stated on the first page of this forum that I would possibly be interested in more information...

So, what exactly is an "apologist" anyway?

Judo, here are some examples of what apologists are as you asked..

LDS Apologists on YouTube

YouTube - answeringantimormons's Channel (Robert Vukich)

YouTube - mormonanswerman's Channel

Atheist Apologist on YouTube

(Richard Dawkins)

MainStr-Christian Apologist on YouTube

(Matt Slick)

Islam Apologist on YouTube

(Zakir Naik) Edited February 26, 2010 by JohnOF123

[Dr T]

Hi John123 and thanks. :)

[rameumptom]

I think my concern is there are two different types of religious discourse. One can have an amiable discussion, even though they disagree. Then there are the ambushes.

Dawkins is an angry militant atheist. He once said that if there were evidence for God, he would be all for destroying the evidence. He doesn't just promote his stance, but he seeks to destroy all religion, but especially Christianity.

When John123 noted that he was promoting: "christian apologetics research ministries" that is CARM, people. They are not a nice group. They don't play fair. They use straw men and logical fallacies to beat up on Mormons. They endorse Ed Decker and others who make false claims about us (like Adam-God, etc). Their site includes a long list of abbreviated Mormon "beliefs", such as God and Mary had sex to make Jesus, Jesus' atonement does not save murderers nor repeat adulterers, without Joseph Smith there is no salvation, etc. They ask the question, "Is Mormonism Christian?" and answer it with "no."

I've dealt with CARM in the past, and they do not give a fair discussion, even for apologists. In one video they helped create a couple years back and distributed to hundreds of thousands of homes, they gave a false choice between Jesus and Joseph Smith. They also had their scholar call LDS scholar Daniel Peterson a "liar."

I would not recommend anyone, even apologists, taking the time to try and debate them, as it wouldn't be on fair ground.

[Maya]

Do it in Finnish I`ll be with!

[john doe]

I didn't pick up on thatRam, thanks. John being involved with CARM makes a few things clearer to me. It's no wonder he didn't want to come right out and say who he hangs out with.

[marts1]

I don't think it much matters where you go in regards to religion. If you get some mormons involved it will soon become an inti mormon place to go.:)

[JohnOF123]

John being involved with CARM makes a few things clearer to me. It's no wonder he didn't want to come right out and say who he hangs out with.

When John123 noted that he was promoting: "christian apologetics research ministries" that is CARM, people. They are not a nice group.

You guys are both being unfair; you're twisting things around and you've been doing nothing but be unkind and argumentative with me on the forum. I'd appreciate it if you would show me the courtesy that one might normally receive from members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And christian apologetics research ministries is one of many to have a debate with. I don't promote "anti-"anything. JohnDoe, like I said on page 2, "I don't think that there are any mainstream christian apologetic radio shows (or websites) that some LDS members wouldn't be quick to call anti-mormon." Hence I didn't post the site, not because I'm secretive! Two other people even pointed this out to you already. That's what apologists they do, ground reasons that they are in the correct position and why others are not. It is the nature of apologetics.

And rameumptom, Dawkins was the perfect example of an atheist apologetic to give to Moksha to help illustrate who and what apologists do. Richard Dawkins hates religion but is thee most popular, thee most sought after and accredited atheist (by atheists) out there. All you ever do is pick on everything I say. Please! I will once again say, I apologize if there is something that I said that made you upset of offended you. Let us try to get along. I am willing to respectfully disagree and state my reasons why. But let us do this respectfully. Not with a spirit of hate that resonates with anger and intolerance. You are a 50 year old man and a 35 year member of the church. I don't think I should need to beg you to start over and be more respectful to me so many times. We've both disagreed with each other and pointed out things, but let us continue from here more respectfully.

Edited February 26, 2010 by JohnOF123

[Maureen]

JohnOF123, it appears you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. :) You must understand that many LDS have a persecution complex - it may lie dormant for awhile and then bam, it appears when you least expect it. :)

M.

[marts1]

John understands only to well were sub human types.:)

[john doe]

like I said on page 2, "I don't think that there are any mainstream christian apologetic radio shows (or websites) that some LDS members wouldn't be quick to call anti-mormon."

Yes, I'll admit that when CARM comes up I will be very quick to call them what they are. They Hate, that's Hate with a capital H, everything LDS and delight in every opportunity to degrade us. They bring no light to any discussion they are involved with. Anyone who associates with them would know this pretty quickly. I now understand why you were so reticent to bring up their identitiy.

There are others out there that use some restraint and try to find out what we believe in a spirit of curiosity and giving us a fair chance to present our beliefs in a respectful manner, but CARM is definitely not one of them.

[JohnOF123]

Yes, I'll admit that when CARM comes up I will be very quick to call them what they are. They Hate, that's Hate with a capital H, everything LDS and delight in every opportunity to degrade us. They bring no light to any discussion they are involved with. Anyone who associates with them would know this pretty quickly. I now understand why you were so reticent to bring up their identitiy.

There are others out there that use some restraint and try to find out what we believe in a spirit of curiosity and giving us a fair chance to present our beliefs in a respectful manner, but CARM is definitely not one of them.

I dont wish to explain this a 3rd time. But just curious, could you show me one of these christian apologetic website ministries that "defend the faith" that are not anti-something. I'd like to check them out please. -Thx

[Roundearth]

Guys, guys, John is being perfectly reasonable. He's RIGHT. I know this forum. They have highly educated, smart atheists with graduate level training in philosophy, physics, and biology.

Some of them are almost as smart as me.

So ease up a little.

(edit)

I see that this was aimed more at the radio show. The radio show is pretty brutal too. The person in charge of it is very good at rhetoric. Very good. You would need to be smart and good at compressing complex ideas into a few sentences before you could do well on there. Listen to a few old shows before you go on.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Roundearth

[marts1]

Short answers, I'm in.:))

[rameumptom]

John123,

I wasn't attacking you. I was warning people of who CARM is. Very different issue, unless of course, you work for CARM. But I won't go there.

There are groups that have nice and interesting discussions with LDS. Then there are groups like CARM, whose main mission is to destroy the LDS Church. They don't give a person a fair shake in their programs, etc., unless that person is on their side.

For example, I don't mind discussing with RoundEarth, who is an atheist. He allows for discussion and questions, and seeks to have a fair debate. You won't get that from CARM or Dawkins.

[john doe]

I dont wish to explain this a 3rd time. But just curious, could you show me one of these christian apologetic website ministries that "defend the faith" that are not anti-something. I'd like to check them out please. -Thx

I don't wish to keep beating this horse, but to answer your question, MADB is not set up to be 'anti-something'. They are pro-LDS. the problem people seem to not understand is that you can be pro-something without being anti-something. Likewise, take this site. We are not 'anti-something', we are pro-LDS.

[pam]

I think it's time to close this thread. We've had points of views from both sides. People can use the information in any way they want.

Thread now closed.