Only marry return missionaries!

[john doe]

Incase the "litmus test" was in reference to me...

No, it was absolutely not directed to you. I tire of these "she broke it off just because I didn't go on a mission" threads. All I can say to that is if that's her only criteria, then she's got more growing up to do. It's more likely that she's not ready for a relationship, and she's hiding behind that reason.

[Palerider]

The expectation for young LDS men to serve a mission became greater in 1974 when Spencer W. Kimball made it almost a requirement.

M.

How did he almost make this a requirement???? what did he say??? when I look at this talk I don't see what your talking about...is there another statement he made?????

LDS.org - Ensign Article - “When the World Will Be Convertedâ€

Edited February 28, 2010 by Palerider

[Palerider]

No, it was absolutely not directed to you. I tire of these "she broke it off just because I didn't go on a mission" threads. All I can say to that is if that's her only criteria, then she's got more growing up to do. It's more likely that she's not ready for a relationship, and she's hiding behind that reason.

I could believe that there are families that have this thinking and would encourage their daughter to break this off....but...I have been a member all my life and never seen it in a book to do so as you mentioned earlier...

[annamaureen]

Even when I was in Young Women, I hated being beaten over the head with "an RM is the only way to go! Anyone else is unworthy! That's the most important thing in a husband!" It wasn't in the manuals, but all the YW leaders certainly tried to drill it into our heads as if it was gospel truth. Apparently this wasn't an isolated incident, since I know many single adult women who refuse to date non-RMs. (And even a few parents who say "if you didn't go on a mission, you're not good enough for my daughter.")

I've known some really unrighteous RMs. Having served a mission is not a guarantee of worthiness.

Edited February 28, 2010 by annamaureen

[Dravin]

How did he almost make this a requirement???? what did he say??? when I look at this talk I don't see what your talking about...is there another statement he made?????

LDS.org - Ensign Article - “When the World Will Be Convertedâ€

I think she's talking about this:

The question is frequently asked: Should every young man fill a mission? And the answer has been given by the Lord. It is “Yes.” Every young man should fill a mission.

[applepansy]

I believe Boyd K Packer also served in the WWII instead of serving a mission.

[Palerider]

I think she's talking about this:

Thanks...in my opinion...the word "should" is far from being made to go or as a requirement....

[Jenamarie]

No, it was absolutely not directed to you. I tire of these "she broke it off just because I didn't go on a mission" threads. All I can say to that is if that's her only criteria, then she's got more growing up to do. It's more likely that she's not ready for a relationship, and she's hiding behind that reason.

Alright, thanks. :) I just thought it might have been referenced at me because I said that RM status was one of my "litmus tests" for a potential husband, and I wanted to make sure it was understood that I wasn't one of "those" LDS girls who make it an all or nothing deal breaker.

[Guest mysticmorini]

No, it was absolutely not directed to you. I tire of these "she broke it off just because I didn't go on a mission" threads. All I can say to that is if that's her only criteria, then she's got more growing up to do. It's more likely that she's not ready for a relationship, and she's hiding behind that reason.

why does it seem to be a systemic problem then? perhaps because lds culture emphasizes marriage at a young age? its obviously something that has been an issue for many people.

[Just_A_Guy]

I think it's important to recognize the difference between something's being a dealbreaker, and something's being the only factor that is even considered.

Is a young woman justified in declining to marry a young man who has made a conscious decision not to live a particular aspect of the Gospel--and continues to rationalize that decision? Is a young woman justified in refusing a man who refuses to live the Word of Wisdom, or glories in his failure to do his home teaching, or routinely cheats on his tax return, or has a porn habit and openly says he has no remorse for it?

I've made the case elsewhere that going on a mission is pretty much a priesthood duty for anyone who has not been honorably excused by Church policy, local leadership, or a bona fide revelation. So, in my opinion, someone who was not honorably excused and continues to justify his decision has sinned and is persisting in rationalizing his sin. I'm one of those parents AnnaMaureen talked about; if such a non-RM shows up on my door I expect him to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance the same as I would if he'd been a habitual drinker or had a history of cheating on academic tests.

And, at any rate: are most--or even a significant portion--of the Church's eligible young women really in a scenario where they must choose between a) an otherwise-perfect-non-RM or b) an RM who will commit adultery or beat his family?

Edited February 28, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest mysticmorini]

I think it's important to recognize the difference between something's being a dealbreaker, and something's being the only factor that is even considered.

Is a young woman justified in declining to marry a young man who has made a conscious decision not to live a particular aspect of the Gospel--and continues to rationalize that decision? Is a young woman justified in refusing a man who refuses to live the Word of Wisdom, or glories in his failure to do his home teaching, or routinely cheats on his tax return, or has a porn habit and openly says he has no remorse for it?

I've made the case elsewhere that going on a mission is pretty much a priesthood duty for anyone who has not been honorably excused by Church policy, local leadership, or a bona fide revelation. So, in my opinion, someone who was not honorably excused and continues to justify his decision has sinned and is persisting in rationalizing his sin. I'm one of those parents AnnaMaureen talked about; if such a non-RM shows up on my door I expect him to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance the same as I would if he'd been a habitual drinker or had a history of cheating on academic tests.

And, at any rate: are most--or even a significant portion--of the Church's eligible young women really in a scenario where they must choose between a) an otherwise-perfect-non-RM or b) an RM who will commit adultery or beat his family?

for a man who's past the age to go on a regular mission, what would be "proof of repentance?"

[Moksha]

He joined the United States Naval Reserve and anticipated participating in World War II in the Pacific theater.

Can you guess who this is?

Had you mentioned raising the flag at Iwo Jima and winning the World Series, I would have guessed Paul Dunn.

[annamaureen]

Is a young woman justified in declining to marry a young man who has made a conscious decision not to live a particular aspect of the Gospel--and continues to rationalize that decision? Is a young woman justified in refusing a man who refuses to live the Word of Wisdom, or glories in his failure to do his home teaching, or routinely cheats on his tax return, or has a porn habit and openly says he has no remorse for it?

I think there's a big difference between your examples. Not serving a mission is in the past, and the man may very well regret not having gone - but refusing to live the WoW or looking at porn is a current, ongoing sin and bars him from being worthy. A guy who says "I was inactive in my early twenties and didn't serve a mission," is not the same as one who says "I don't do my home teaching and I look at porn, who cares?"

Edited February 28, 2010 by annamaureen

[Just_A_Guy]

for a man who's past the age to go on a regular mission, what would be "proof of repentance?"

I didn't say "proof", I said "fruits worthy of repentance". Broken heart. Contrite spirit. Recognition, remorse, restitution, reformation, resolution, and all that jazz we hear about in Sunday School.

(Incidentally, why is it that when a young man decides he won't serve a mission we're supposed to defer to his decision and not "judge", but when a young woman declines to marry said young man because of that decision we are quite comfortable dismissing her as irrational, unreasonable, uppity, self-righteous, and an all-around-hoity-toity wench?)

I think there's a big difference between your examples. Not serving a mission is in the past, and the man may very well regret not having gone - but refusing to live the WoW or looking at porn is a current, ongoing sin and bars him from being worthy. A guy who says "I was inactive in my early twenties and didn't serve a mission," is not the same as one who says "I don't do my home teaching and I look at porn, who cares?"

Amen; the material difference is whether one repents of the decision--part of which is showing genuine remorse--or just keeps carrying on as though there were nothing wrong with what he did.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest mysticmorini]

I didn't say "proof", I said "fruits worthy of repentance". Broken heart. Contrite spirit. Confession. Effort to make restitution, and all that jazz we hear about in Sunday School.

ok thats nice in sunday school, but how would you define that in the real world, say a non-RM does come home with your daughter what would he have to say/said or do/have done in order to get your blessing?

[annamaureen]

Amen; the material difference is whether one repents of the decision--part of which is showing genuine remorse--or just keeps carrying on as though there were nothing wrong with what he did.

Ah, that makes sense. In my view, a young man who didn't go on a mission just because he "didn't feel like it" and simply doesn't care, is a bit different than someone who was inactive, a convert, was prevented from going due to a sin but has since repented, etc. My problem is with those who choose to judge ANY man who didn't go on a mission as automatically unworthy and not good enough.

[Just_A_Guy]

ok thats nice in sunday school, but how would you define that in the real world, say a non-RM does come home with your daughter what would he have to say/said or do/have done in order to get your blessing?

I'd hesitate to set down any fixed criteria now; my preference would be to rely on the Spirit if/when circumstances require my making such a decision. But fundamentally it's not a matter of hoops he has to jump through, Mystic; it's a question of attitude.

[Guest mysticmorini]

I'd hesitate to set down any fixed criteria now; my preference would be to rely on the Spirit if/when circumstances require my making such a decision. But fundamentally it's not a matter of hoops he has to jump through, Mystic; it's a question of attitude.

ok fair enough, just seems like a hardline to set but i think i see where your coming from now.

[Wingnut]

Just out of curiosity OP, did you not get enough responses in 10 pages the first time you asked this question?

[john doe]

Obviously not the responses that he wanted to read.

[pam]

Oh good catch Wingers.

[Wingnut]

Oh good catch Wingers.

I remembered having contributed to a thread recently that was about this exact subject, and I remember it going on and on before finally being closed. Imagine my surprise when I searched for it and found it was started by the same person!

[Nikkie85]

I plan on encouraging my children to date within the church and all my children to go on on a mission. I think it is important to let them know what you expect. I am a YW adviser and I want the best for my girls which is to be married in the temple. My husband did not serve a mission because he was inactive at the time and regrets it. He has since repented and moved on but it will be something we will teach our children that they should do. I am a convert and have been blessed to received the gospel and have the chance to be married in the temple. I want my children to know the happiness that comes from a temple marriage. How could you want anything else for your children if you truly believe the gospel to be true?

[Mahone]

I've made the case elsewhere that going on a mission is pretty much a priesthood duty for anyone who has not been honorably excused by Church policy, local leadership, or a bona fide revelation. So, in my opinion, someone who was not honorably excused and continues to justify his decision has sinned and is persisting in rationalizing his sin. I'm one of those parents AnnaMaureen talked about; if such a non-RM shows up on my door I expect him to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance the same as I would if he'd been a habitual drinker or had a history of cheating on academic tests.

Alright, so what about a young man who was not officially honourably excused, because he didn't meet the textbook criteria in order to be honourably excused. But he also felt that going on a mission might have a very negative effect on him. So he decides not to go, because that he feels is the right thing for him. Of those who meet the textbook criteria of being able to go on a mission, not everyone in that group will still be able to deal with it - it's down to each individual to decide.

Would you say that young man has committed a sin, and expect him to repent?

[Guest mysticmorini]

Just out of curiosity OP, did you not get enough responses in 10 pages the first time you asked this question?

I'm feeling a lot of animosity coming from you Wingnut, I obviously thought this post was unique enough to warrant another thread or i would not have posted it. this thread was ment to focus specifically on the misconception that YW should only marry RM's, whereas the other one was focused on the social consequences of a young man not going on a mission. If the thread drifted into off topic discussion that is not my fault. I believe that you are not required to post replies so if you feel redundant feel free not to post your two cents.