Seeking confirmation from the Holy Spirit

[prisonchaplain]

In another thread we've been discussing the ins and outs of the Moroni Prayer--asking for spiritual confirmation about the Book of Mormon. One response suggested that a testing of the faith must come before convincing confirmation would.

That got me to thinking. IMHO it's the other way around. For the first 15 years of my Christian walk I seldom heard a supernatural word from God. I led a disciplined, prayerful, obedient Christian life. I volunteered for church work, and pretty much trusted that I should do whatever I could, in that God would "close the door" if I was going off in a wrong direction. In other words, I erred on the side of active service.

It was not until God directed me towards graduate theological study, a course nowhere on my radar screen, that I received a supernatural prompting of the Spirit. Likewise when God called me to prison chaplaincy. It was totally out of the blue, and yet I "knew" that God was directing me. I felt what might be called the burning in the bossom.

My point? My spiritual experience has been that God provides me the test of faith by fire AFTER I receive confirmations or directions from the Holy Spirit. It would be my guess that the same would be true with the BoM. If it is true, my test of faith will come after I receive direction from the Holy Spirt of such...as most here can easily imagine.

And yet...it's been suggested to me that the test must come before the confirmation or testimony is gained. THOUGHTS?

[JudoMinja]

I agree with you. The test comes after faith, in much the same way the miracles come after faith.

[Gwen]

i'm not sure i'm following the question. sorry i can be slow sometimes. lol i've not followed the other thread in detail so i can't say specifically what comment you are referring to. but i'm guessing it was a reference to a book of mormon scripture....

ether 12:6

And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

i would say given your example you did receive the witness after the trial of your faith. you followed god with all you knew how with the information you had. you had faith that god would direct you if your path was not right. you did your best to follow the things you thought god wanted you to do. in following christ (the trial of your faith) you received an answer (the witness) you were seeking, what path you should be on. but you only got part of the answer. what field of study. after accepting that answer and acting on it (something not on your radar, thus a trial) you got further direction (a witness) to prison chaplaincy.

now if you had been preparing to start your education and you sat down and said, ok god tell me what to do. and refused to start anything till you knew what major, what to do when that was complete, and assurance that it was all going to end well with retirement and a happy family. that is refusing to have faith, the witness won't usually come that way.

an example that comes to my mind is when i heard pres. hinckley talk about temple building. even as the prophet he had to follow this pattern. he was told to build smaller temples. all the information he had said it wouldn't work. financially it made no since. but he started down the path to do it. as the inspiration came he things started to come together in his understanding. god didn't give him ever detail from the start. he required faith from pres hinckley to act on what he had been given without the end result in hand. as he acted (the trial) the witness came. when several of the temples were up and running the financial numbers came together and he saw god's plan in full.

the trial and witness don't have to be earth moving to be testimony building.

or am i totally way off in what you were trying to ask? lol

[Lolita]

It was so nice to me to read this, as I've been an active member of the Church all my life, I have prayed faithfuly and try to always "Chosse the right", but I've never felt that "confirmation" that converted members say to feel, never heard something like the voice of the Holy Spirit, nor the burning or clear thoughts confirming.

I was asking myself what I am missing, what am I doing worng? Or is just allucinations that other members have... or were they just lying?

But now this explanation seems pretty logical to me :)

[marts1]

For me, trials come before, after and in between.:)....I would just like to add that inspite of these trials I am for the most part, very happy to be alive.

Edited March 1, 2010 by marts1

[Traveler]

In another thread we've been discussing the ins and outs of the Moroni Prayer--asking for spiritual confirmation about the Book of Mormon. One response suggested that a testing of the faith must come before convincing confirmation would.

That got me to thinking. IMHO it's the other way around. For the first 15 years of my Christian walk I seldom heard a supernatural word from God. I led a disciplined, prayerful, obedient Christian life. I volunteered for church work, and pretty much trusted that I should do whatever I could, in that God would "close the door" if I was going off in a wrong direction. In other words, I erred on the side of active service.

It was not until God directed me towards graduate theological study, a course nowhere on my radar screen, that I received a supernatural prompting of the Spirit. Likewise when God called me to prison chaplaincy. It was totally out of the blue, and yet I "knew" that God was directing me. I felt what might be called the burning in the bossom.

My point? My spiritual experience has been that God provides me the test of faith by fire AFTER I receive confirmations or directions from the Holy Spirit. It would be my guess that the same would be true with the BoM. If it is true, my test of faith will come after I receive direction from the Holy Spirt of such...as most here can easily imagine.

And yet...it's been suggested to me that the test must come before the confirmation or testimony is gained. THOUGHTS?

There have been many efforts to compartmentalize spirituality. It has been my experience and understanding that such efforts yield faulty and sketchy results. There are many examples in scripture concerning our spiritual journey.

Example one: Samuel. This is an interesting example to me. Samuel as a youth was called by the L-rd to be an example, teacher and prophet to a covenant people. His life seems to be a simple uncomplicated life of service and faith. It is interesting that Samuel did not recognize the L-rd’s call as supernatural or more unordinary than being called by his elder.

Example two: Paul. This seems to be the opposite extreme from Samuel. Paul was hardened and set in a course very contrary to what was the “excellent” way he would describe later in his life. Paul was not really rebellious to the ways of the L-rd. In fact he believed he was fulfilling the will and desire of G-d but had become extremely misguided. Perhaps a drastic supernatural event was necessary to draw his attention away the flawed course he believed was the divinely inspired course he was pursuing.

Example three: Abraham and Joseph. These two give example that almost seems troubling. Though they dutifully followed every opportunity to serve G-d they seemed to constantly face one trial of faith after another. Much of their lives appear to turn for the worse just because they were doing the right thing. One begins to wonder how they stayed the course when each turns seems to just get worse.

Example four: Abinadi: To me this is a very troubling example. Abinadi comes on the scene as a seasoned veteran prophet. We know nothing concerning Abinadi prior to his epoch confrontation with King Noah in the Book of Mormon. He is usually envisioned as an old prophet without family or anything of real value to lose. I have contemplated Abinadi as a young man in his prime with a beloved wife and young children and such thoughts break my heart. And so I see Abinadi as a young prophet with everything of value to sacrifice in service to G-d. I believe the trial of Abinadi’s faith to be that of great extreme and if consideration of his mission was about his life only would tell a tale of disastrous proportions.

Now I would speak a little of my own experience. I have had several experiences that others might think of as supernatural. But such things seem to be preceded or followed by extreme trials of faith that have caused me to wonder if I would not have been better off following a less precarious path such as Samuel. In short my journey would seem that when I have endured my trial of faith and just begun to enjoy the blessing only to discover that I was really just beginning rather than finishing up my trials.

And so it is that I present myself and my thoughts to the forum as “The Traveler”. For I am far from my “home” and long for peace and rest. Realizing that I am so far from home my small wish with each day is to just know I do not travel alone. I do feel the guidance and love of my master but I also appreciate the times being safely shepherded within the flock of the saints and seek to be with the saints of G-d with every opportunity. But too often I find myself being led to rugged places far from safety as I did some years ago when I went to the wilderness to fast and pray to overcome the effects of my personal trials of faith. Seeking relief for myself; I instead encountered another and as the despised Samaritan, ruined my relief to save another from dying. And so it would seem that though I trust in G-d that there are times when it is I that lay wounded and dying in some far away wilderness relying on the L-rd to guide my despised Samaritan, themselves seeking some relief, to ruin their hopes in my behalf.

The Traveler

[rameumptom]

PC, I think your initial test was a test of obedience. You showed yourself faithful and obedient for several years in your daily walk. Because of your faithfulness, God knew he could trust you in the prison ministry. Therefore, he called you to it on account of your faithfulness in the regular tests of life.

Now, sometimes those callings give us a new level of test, which can prepare us for the next level of calling God wishes to provide us.

I do believe God can call a person to the ministry outside of the LDS Church. There are many levels of truth and heaven, and God calls who he can to what level that person is ready to help. If your efforts have caused prisoners to repent of their crimes and sins, you have helped God save many souls from a fiery hell.

And as people prepare themselves for higher truths and blessings of God, God prepares the way for them to receive it.

[Vanhin]

I maintain that ultimately, a trial of our faith precedes the "sure" witness, which comes by the Holy Ghost. This trial need not be a solitary event, attached only to the time that a question to God has been submitted (like with Enos, see Enos 1). You may have already been sufficiently tried, prior to the petition, and God answers right away because of you faithfulness. However, God may, in his wisdom, try you again, to see if you will keep his commandments in various situations. Indeed, from a Mormon perspective, this life is a time of trial to begin with, for those who are accountable for their actions.

To live by faith is a blessing and a protection to us, yet we must gain knowledge to be saved (John 17:3). Consider the following words from the beginning of one of the most profound sermons from the Book of Mormon on faith and testimony. It demonstrates how faith is a protection to us.

Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe.

Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it. And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression? (Alma 32:17-19)

The rest of the chapter displays the dynamic between the "trial of faith" and the acquisition of spiritual knowledge. We must plant the seed, and nourish it, in faith, in order to see if it is a good seed or not, and to enjoy the fruit thereof in the end.

Regards,

Vanhin

[zippy_do46]

PC if you were not where you are right now, would you be on this site... I believe sometimes we must go down paths to find the path that is right for us. Sometimes Heavenly Father uses us for the knowledge that we have gained traveling those paths. Sometimes when a person has traveled certain paths he can see the need in others faster. Does that make sense?

[Moksha]

Tests come and go. Just make sure to have your blue book, pen and optional kneepads.

[prisonchaplain]

So many good insights! I suppose my perspective is unique in that, even as a pentecostal, I was not a "cradle roll" member--not "born under the covenant," so to speak. Although my conversion was at a relatively young age (10), I grew up in a home that was "unchurched." I suppose my faith was tested daily, but I grew to consider it normal. Then again, I suppose some in the persecuted churches might look at our trials by fire and struggle not to snicker at the seeming lightness of it.

We all face our trials, and each deserves recogition and support. For, as several have alluded to here, our journey's are ours--and they are ultimately ordained of God.

[Pianoman216]

I think there is a pretty big difference between trials in general and the "trial of our faith". That we will not receive a witness until after the trial of our faith does not necessarily mean we will have a great trial that, if passed faithfully, we will be rewarded for. It simply means that our faith must first be in place before a witness will come. It also does not mean that this can only happen once in our lives. I believe the same is true for any spiritual decision/change and even many temporal things as well if we turn to God. We will not receive our answer until we take a few steps first; until we prove to God (or to ourselves rather, since God already knows) that we are willing to act upon the answers we receive. I believe that THAT is the trial of our faith, to stay true and faithful no matter what.

Its as the Savior said in John 7:17, "If any man will do His [Gods] will, he shall know of the doctrine." Just because we haven't yet received an answer as to why we need to follow a certain principle is no reason to not live it. In fact, faithfully following the commandments of God is the only way to receive a further witness of their truth. It should be an ongoing pattern in our lives: we do Gods will, thereby showing our faith, and we receive a witness after that "trial of faith". This, in turn, helps to increase our faith and the process repeats.

[Finrock]

I've always understood the promise in Moroni to be one of affirmative confirmation. What I mean is that one must approach God, already believing the words which they have read, and then asking God to confirm what they believe so that they may know that they are not in error.

In addition to how the scripture in Moroni 10 is worded, I think that the account of the conversion of the father of king Lamoni in the Book of Mormon is a good example of this principle. In this account the missionary Aaron teaches the father of Lamoni. Let me quote a portion of this account here to illustrate the type of faith that the father of Lamoni demonstrated:

"5 Now the king said unto them: What is this that ye have said concerning the Spirit of the Lord? Behold, this is the thing which doth trouble me.

6 And also, what is this that Ammon said—If ye will repent ye shall be saved, and if ye will not repent, ye shall be cast off at the last day?

7 And Aaron answered him and said unto him: Believest thou that there is a God? And the king said: I know that the Amalekites say that there is a God, and I have granted unto them that they should build sanctuaries, that they may assemble themselves together to worship him. And if now thou sayest there is a God, behold I will believe

8 And now when Aaron heard this, his heart began to rejoice, and he said: Behold, assuredly as thou livest, O king, there is a God.

9 And the king said: Is God that Great Spirit that brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem?

10 And Aaron said unto him: Yea, he is that Great Spirit, and he created all things both in heaven and in earth. Believest thou this?

11 And he said: Yea, I believe that the Great Spirit created all things, and I desire that ye should tell me concerning all these things, and I will believe thy words. (Alma 22; emphasis added)."

Now, I have bolded portions of this dialoge because it is telling of the mindset of the king. That the king stated that he would believe all that Aaron would say demonstrated an exercise of faith. The king did not know at this point if Aaron was speaking the truth but he was willing and desirous to listen and to believe.

So, after Aaron ends his teaching here is the kings reaction and response:

"15 And it came to pass that after Aaron had expounded these things unto him, the king said: What shall I do that I may have this eternal life of which thou hast spoken? Yea, what shall I do that I may be born of God, having this wicked spirit rooted out of my breast, and receive his Spirit, that I may be filled with joy, that I may not be cast off at the last day? Behold, said he, I will give up all that I possess, yea, I will forsake my kingdom, that I may receive this great joy.

16 But Aaron said unto him: If thou desirest this thing, if thou wilt bow down before God, yea, if thou wilt repent of all thy sins, and will bow down before God, and call on his name in faith, believing that ye shall receive, then shalt thou receive the hope which thou desirest.

17 And it came to pass that when Aaron had said these words, the king did bow down before the Lord, upon his knees; yea, even he did prostrate himself upon the earth, and cried mightily, saying:

18 O God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee, and that I may be raised from the dead, and be saved at the last day. And now when the king had said these words, he was struck as if he were dead" (Alma 22).

Here is the pattern. The king had been prepared by the Spirit to listen to Aaron's words. He was sincere in his desire to learn and to know the truth of Aaron's words. He exercised faith even before knowing if Aaron spoke the truth declaring that he would believe Aaron. Afterwards, he asked how he could receive the witness and knowledge that Aaron had spoke of. The king then prostrated himself on the ground in humility and with faith, already believing Aaron's words and being willing to sacrifice all that he had, he prayed and asked God to reveal Himself to him and his prayer was answered by a powerful witness.

So often I have seen how people approach the Book of Mormon with an attitude of skepticism and disbelief and then ask for God to dispel that disbelief. However, this isn't exercising faith and this isn't the pattern. Faith is to believe in things not seen or known. Instead, I believe, Moroni's challenge requires that we already believe and have faith in the things we have read and then we ask God to confirm our belief and faith and if we do this with sincerity and with real intent (just as the king was willing to give up everything once God confirmed the truth to him, in the same way a person needs to be willing to give up old beliefs and act on whatever truth God reveals to them), then we will know that the Book of Mormon is true, with a surety that can only come when the Spirit witnesses of the truth of things to our hearts.

Regards,

Finrock

[Prodigal_Son]

President Boyd K. Packer (one of our General Authorities - The President of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles) once wrote:

Somewhere in your quest for spiritual knowledge, there is that “leap of faith,” as the philosophers call it. It is the moment when you have gone to the edge of the light and stepped into the darkness to discover that the way is lighted ahead for just a footstep or two.

And here's a talk from another G.A. that is a great sermon on the Spirit and following promptings. Well worth the read for EVERYONE.

[prisonchaplain]

I wonder then if investigators realize, when the missionaries tell them to pray that prayer, that they are meant to have already affirmed their belief that the words are true, and that they are only seeking confirmation? After all, even here, I've seen those non-members who come with questions rather quickly be advsied to pray that prayer.

[Justice]

PC, those very words are in the promise Moroni gives. In my mind, it is all about intent.

Either you are reading it with the intention of retaining your belief no matter what, making it pointless to pray.

Or, you open your mind and heart and are willing to accept what you read... kind of a out with the old and in with the new thing. If you are unwilling to surplant what you believe for truth, the truth will not come.

[marts1]

I think there have been and are many who have a good suspicion the mormons have the truth but they see what it would entail to become a member and shy away. Maybe there in a job that they like and becoming a member would change that. I think this was one of the reasons the leaders of the time, in Christ's day, did not like what Jesus stood for.

[prisonchaplain]

I think there have been and are many who have a good suspicion the mormons have the truth but they see what it would entail to become a member and shy away. Maybe there in a job that they like and becoming a member would change that. I think this was one of the reasons the leaders of the time, in Christ's day, did not like what Jesus stood for.

I'd like to think that about my church too. I remember thinking, as a high school student, "If only my classmates were here now, listening to this anointed music, hearing the powerful word of God being preached, surely they would immediately recognize God is hear, repent, and be saved! It's so obvious! Why don't more see it?

30 years later, perhaps I'm jaundiced. Living in the secular pacific northwest probably doesn't help. But, imho, most people are not Mormon, nor Pentecostal, nor even Christian because they are not intersted in a greater truth, one way or the other. They are not even sure there is such a thing, and really don't care one way or the other. "If God wants me, He'll let me know."

It might be that a certain # of INVESTIGATORS, who drop off and never get baptized are as you describe. However, I believe most non-members simply aren't that interested in religion, period.

[Moksha]

However, I believe most non-members simply aren't that interested in religion, period.

Like being on a journey and not realizing you are traveling.

[marts1]

I'd like to think that about my church too. I remember thinking, as a high school student, "If only my classmates were here now, listening to this anointed music, hearing the powerful word of God being preached, surely they would immediately recognize God is hear, repent, and be saved! It's so obvious! Why don't more see it?

30 years later, perhaps I'm jaundiced. Living in the secular pacific northwest probably doesn't help. But, imho, most people are not Mormon, nor Pentecostal, nor even Christian because they are not intersted in a greater truth, one way or the other. They are not even sure there is such a thing, and really don't care one way or the other. "If God wants me, He'll let me know."

It might be that a certain # of INVESTIGATORS, who drop off and never get baptized are as you describe. However, I believe most non-members simply aren't that interested in religion, period.

Sadly Christians have always been an extreme minority.

[ehkape]

I've always understood the promise in Moroni to be one of affirmative confirmation. What I mean is that one must approach God, already believing the words which they have read, and then asking God to confirm what they believe so that they may know that they are not in error.

I think so too. Since I'm not a native speaker, I've always wondered about the wording though...

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with acsincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Should I really ask something like: I Believe its true, tell me if its not?

The German translation of the BoM translates into "ask if these things are true..."

Somebody out there who can shed some light on it? thx

[Gwen]

is there really a difference in the questions "is it true" or "is it not true".... in the end the result is the same. if it's not one it's the other.

but i really think it comes down to when it's translated. it was translated into the language of the time. we speak a little differently now. the writer knows they are true, so in some ways it's a plea type question.

for example.... a teenager is being rebellious and tells mom, "you don't care about me". mom could reply, "of course i do, i get up and make your breakfast, get you to school on time, in clean clothes. when you are sick i stay up all night at your side. i've driven hours to your ball games, i've sat in cold bleachers for hours cheering you on...... " that's probably how i would say it today but there was a time in history when it might have been worded more like, "do i not get up and make your breakfast, you are not to school on time, your clothes are not clean, i'm not at your side when you are sick. .... am i not your mother? of course i love you" the first is a statement of shock, here is the list of proof, how could you say this. the second is a plea of hurt, questions asking, do these things mean nothing? search your heart and you tell me what they mean.

i hear moroni pleading, he's not in a statement of proof, he can't "prove". his only way of "convincing" you is for god to give you a witness. so he's pleading "ask god if these things are not true" just like the mother pleading "are these things not proof that i love you, that i care"

maybe i'm wrong but that's how i see the difference in and no issue with the translation difference between english in one era and german in another.

[Traveler]

This thread has troubled me greatly. Someone that has experienced the influences of the Holy Ghost knows. It is my general impression that when someone asks about the Holy Ghost it is because what they have experienced in the past was not the force and impact of having received the gift of the Holy Ghost but only a portion.

The Traveler

[Prodigal_Son]

Someone that has experienced the influences of the Holy Ghost knows.

Are you sure? What is your response, then, to 3 Nephi 9:20?

And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.

Perhaps your use of the word "knows" leaves a lot of wiggle room, but I remember being electrified when I had an influential member pause in the middle of what he was doing and declare, "That feeling you feel right now: THAT'S the Holy Ghost."

And, though I'd felt that 'sensation' before, I hadn't clearly identified it as being the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. But when that declaration by this beloved brother was made to me, I caught fire as the Spirit affirmed a resounding, "Yes, he's right. This is me you feel."

[ehkape]

hi gwen, thanks for your thoughts.

I like your example. I have no issues with the translation. Do a bit of it myself and know how difficult it is. Sometimes even impossible to do it "word perfect".

I was just wondering about the question we're supposed to ask and if it makes a difference.

It's one thing to ask "I'm not sure about this book, please let me know if its true" or if you ask "I feel this book is inspired and could be your word, please let me know if its not"

You're mindset is different, isn't it?

but still, to me the best way to ask would be "I feel its good and inspiring and tru, please confirm that it is your word"