Sadistic God?

[Moksha]

Does the idea of worshiping a God who creates both billions of spirits and then creates a burning, tormenting, endless hell to put a majority of them in bother anyone else? Perhaps we ourselves may have been told we going to hell. Does it bother anyone that so many of us would be sent to burn in endless torment?

Has anyone stopped to wonder how sadistic it appears that God would send something he created to burn in hell fire for eternity. Should we worship a God with such sadistic tendencies, or are we better off seeking a new definition and understanding of God?

[wondering23]

I dont think this makes much sense but:

I think everyone has a different version of God no matter if you are in the same religion or a different one. To me I see a mericful God, someone who is there for me during bad times, someone who I can call on for comfort and someone I can look to (ie bible and prayer) for guidance and comfort. Yes he may have been able and step in and I would never experience these trials but I would have no free agency as a human being. Our faith and character would not develop if we lived in a "perfect world". We would have no chance to prove our faith.

I don't believe just purely being born gives you the opportunity to go to heaven, you should prove your worthiness, through belief in him and belief in god as well as your actions here on earth and come judgement day you will know where you will go. I don't belive God is an unmerciful character, he gives us ample opportunity, a lifetime to prove ourselves and follow his word, but if we don't follow him or attempt to seek him out and listen when he calls why should we enjoy the riches of Heaven and his presence?

Edited March 3, 2010 by wondering23

[john doe]

Does the idea of worshiping a God who creates both billions of spirits and then creates a burning, tormenting, endless hell to put a majority of them in bother anyone else? Perhaps we ourselves may have been told we going to hell. Does it bother anyone that so many of us would be sent to burn in endless torment?

Has anyone stopped to wonder how sadistic it appears that God would send something he created to burn in hell fire for eternity. Should we worship a God with such sadistic tendencies, or are we better off seeking a new definition and understanding of God?

You're LDS and you're actually asking this Question? How much do you really believe?

[Tarnished]

Maybe instead of seeking a new definition and understanding of God you should look into seeking a new definition and understanding of hell and what it entails. This especially is the case if you are LDS, as the hell you describe above would only apply to those who made it to Outer Darkness, which would be very few of those who live and have lived on this earth, and the spirits following Satan, which made a choice that would land them there. They were not forced into that choice.

Sadistic? No, probably sad though to see the choices some of his children have made.

Oh and hell, the torment and suffering is actually caused by being removed from God, so the choice results in the separation from God which results in torment and misery.

[Islander]

Does the idea of worshiping a God who creates both billions of spirits and then creates a burning, tormenting, endless hell to put a majority of them in bother anyone else? Perhaps we ourselves may have been told we going to hell. Does it bother anyone that so many of us would be sent to burn in endless torment?

Has anyone stopped to wonder how sadistic it appears that God would send something he created to burn in hell fire for eternity. Should we worship a God with such sadistic tendencies, or are we better off seeking a new definition and understanding of God?

I think you misread the scriptures. The hellish-firepit-forever-terment condo is a perpetual lease for those that willfully and intentionally rebelled/defied God-the-Father and denied/rejected the Lamb. It is not a very large co-op so not many will be retired there.

In the other hand, if you kill, harm and do truly evil things in your neighborhood, you are sent to be fried in an electrified easy-chair. The nature of the punishment is directly proportional to the extent of the sin.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Islander

[john doe]

Hint: God doesn't banish you to hell, You make choices which put you there. God wants nothing more than for you to return to live with Him.

[Dove]

Hello, Moksha;

I really appreciate your post. For me, it's not really seeing God as sadistic in the going to hell issue. As you probably know, LDS doctrine says that for most of us who have not repented hell is a temporary torment to make sure we pay our just dues for sinning. (yes, I did paraphrase what was actually said in the Doctrine and Covenants, but I believe the jist is correct.)

I struggle with wondering at God's cruelty given the insane suffering that happens right here and now, in this life. The senseless suffering of the innocent ones, like animals, children, and naive adults. The heinous suffering that goes on every day in so many parts of the world, including our own back yard, that seems so pointless. I have yet to wrap my puny brain around it. I know that God lives, but seeing/experiencing so much suffering really undermines my belief in His character as a caring/loving God.....

[prisonchaplain]

Moksha's question is more appropriate for us Protestants and Catholics. And, I admit it...I don't like the idea of an eternal tormenting hell. However, that is what I see in the Bible--especially the New Testament. I reconcile my distaste with the apparent truth of the doctrine, by concluding that I and my cultural badly underestimate just how much God hates sin and rebellion, and we confuse the all-loving God who sent his Son, with some kind of perverse permissive Daddy Deity who really would rather just be our buddy.

[Faded]

It should be noted that the imagery in scripture for hell is used for a reason. Those who are punished by God for their sins are going to experience something so unpleasant that all of those metaphors don't even begin to cover it.

I think that the message is pretty clear. It's bad. Really, really bad. Horrible beyond our capacity to understand it.

But the Church of Jesus Christ DOES believe in Hell. We just understand it differently. It is not infinite in duration save for those who have sinned in a virtually infinite degree: The sons of Perdition.

Doctrine and Covenants 19:15-18

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

Hell as we understand it DOES NOT sound like something any of us should be taking lightly. It sounds downright terrifying.

Christ did not have to suffer for an infinite duration in order to make an infinite atonement. We finite beings do not need to suffer for an infinite duration for our finite sins, but we should be very aware that it's not something we should think of lightly. And we risk being exiled from God's presence for all eternity.

[marts1]

You remember the vision of the telestial kingdom where liers, murderers, adulterers etc. and what was said about it. The glory of it as compared to where we are now was explained as pretty much unimaginable. I believe that if we really, really knew all that was going on we would be a whole lot more appreciative of our God.

[Moksha]

Moksha's question is more appropriate for us Protestants and Catholics.

Thanks for mentioning this distinction Padre. In case anyone is wondering (even my fellow LDS) LDS theology postulates that the majority of all humans are going to some level of glory - not hell.

That said, I agree with Wondering, that everybody has a bit different take on their view of God. Some take a bit harsher view than others. Whether we view Him as a Hoary Thunderer or Cosmic Muffin, we are all certain God holds something in store for us.

[Cassiopeia]

You remember the vision of the telestial kingdom where liers, murderers, adulterers etc. and what was said about it. The glory of it as compared to where we are now was explained as pretty much unimaginable. I believe that if we really, really knew all that was going on we would be a whole lot more appreciative of our God.

I've heard that this was never actually said but is rumoured to have been said by Joseph Smith.

I want to add my voice to this discussion and say that I most vehemently proclaim that the theology of a hell in which God punishes his children is one of the most abhorrent for it goes against the very nature of our divine and loving Father. While He may not interfere in our lives to always save us from our choices, He would not have sent His son to atone for our sins if He were a sadistic and malicious God.

I have a very deep and abiding testimony in the love of our Father and in our Savior Jesus Christ. Man has done much to twist the meaning of metaphors in the scriptures to lay them in a literal sense at our feet to compel us into obedience. Striking fear in our hearts for a mythical place of fire and brimstone is Satan's work for it does nothing to glorify God's work.

If we are compelled to be obedient, it's as if we didn't do it at all. It is contradictory to think that God loved us so much he sent Christ and on the other hand that he created us to torment us. God is not maniacal or a torturer. We are not puppets nor God our puppeteer.

Edited March 3, 2010 by john doe

[WillowTheWhisp]

No,God is not sadistic. He wants so much to save us from eternal punishment that he provided a way for us to be able to escape that Hell. Jesus Christ is that way and he loves us so much he was willing to take the punishment for us so that we don't have to endure it. That isn't sadim. That is compassion and mercy and love.

[Guest]

Yes, this is not an LDS question - this is a non-LDS-Christian question.

This question is one of the reasons why I'm LDS now. I just cannot grasp the idea that people in the remote areas of the world who have never heard of Christ will somehow go to hell. It sounds very unjust. Some Christians somehow believe that if you haven't heard of Christ before you die and you lived righteously, then you can possibly get to heaven. Which doesn't make sense to me either - because, if that's the case, then there's no reason for me to join their church as long as I live righteously. Even with the theory of purgatory in the Catholic church, this still caused me lots of confusion...

The LDS position makes it all clear to me. My logical brain can untangle itself from the pretzel it has to become to understand God's judgement and mercy.

[marts1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by marts1

You remember the vision of the telestial kingdom where liers, murderers, adulterers etc. and what was said about it. The glory of it as compared to where we are now was explained as pretty much unimaginable. I believe that if we really, really knew all that was going on we would be a whole lot more appreciative of our God.

I've heard that this was never actually said but is rumoured to have been said by Joseph Smith. D.C.76:89-90

[rameumptom]

LDS doctrine on hell is very much different from traditional Christianity. We believe in two hells. Spirit Prison hell is a temporary place where people suffer torment UNTIL they fully repent (see Alma 36). Then they are redeemed into a level of heaven by Christ's atonement.

Outer Darkness is reserved for those who choose to become Satan's soldier and Christ's complete enemy.

We believe in a near universal salvation. We believe Muslims, Buddhists, and even atheists will mostly end up in a level of heaven. That exaltation requires an additional valiant effort is a separate issue. Most will enter heaven and be saved. This shows a very loving God, who will save as many as He possibly can.

This is very different than the person who believes that all Mormons will burn in hell, because they believe in a different Jesus.

And I think PC would even agree with me that his traditional view is very different than the Calvinistic view of TULIP, which includes a limited atonement, that most people are predestined to burn in hell, and that God chooses whomever he wants to save regardless of whether a person professes Christ or not.

At least in PC's view, those who profess Christ will be saved - perhaps even Mormons. So, I think that the Calvinist view of salvation requires a cruel and uncaring God.

[prisonchaplain]

I would add that Joseph Smith was very aware of the doctrinal controversy Rameumptom mentions, and clearly was against Predestination. IMHO he got that right.

[Cassiopeia]

LDS doctrine on hell is very much different from traditional Christianity. We believe in two hells. Spirit Prison hell is a temporary place where people suffer torment UNTIL they fully repent (see Alma 36). Then they are redeemed into a level of heaven by Christ's atonement.

Outer Darkness is reserved for those who choose to become Satan's soldier and Christ's complete enemy.

We believe in a near universal salvation. We believe Muslims, Buddhists, and even atheists will mostly end up in a level of heaven. That exaltation requires an additional valiant effort is a separate issue. Most will enter heaven and be saved. This shows a very loving God, who will save as many as He possibly can.

This is very different than the person who believes that all Mormons will burn in hell, because they believe in a different Jesus.

And I think PC would even agree with me that his traditional view is very different than the Calvinistic view of TULIP, which includes a limited atonement, that most people are predestined to burn in hell, and that God chooses whomever he wants to save regardless of whether a person professes Christ or not.

At least in PC's view, those who profess Christ will be saved - perhaps even Mormons. So, I think that the Calvinist view of salvation requires a cruel and uncaring God.

I abhorred the practice of non-LDS on another forum saying we believe in a different Jesus and I like it even less coming from a Latter-day Saint.

There is but one Christ. How we view him is what differs. He does not differ.

Calvinism doesn't just paint god as cruel and uncaring but a maniacal puppeteer.

And it is my understanding that outer darkness is not even remotely the hell of fire and brimstone. It's a place in which one is cast after becoming a son of perdition and will be consumed and distroyed.

The traditional Christian hell is eternal fire and brimstone in which there is no relief from torment.

I've never heard the Spirit prison described as hell but rather a place of waiting. The only hell that exists in the LDS faith that is, according to my understanding, is the state in which we no longer have the veil to protect us from seeing everything and we see our sins and when we are separated from Christ and God the Father. It's that kind of hell.

[marts1]

And it is my understanding that outer darkness is not even remotely the hell of fire and brimstone. It's a place in which one is cast after becoming a son of perdition and will be consumed and distroyed.

Where did you find that info?

[Faded]

I DO NOT want this to come across as me saying, "You're wrong!" or anything like that. But I am completely puzzled by any Latter Day Saint making the case that "we don't believe in hell" or "we don't believe in anything similar to what other Christians believe." Actually, we believe in punishments from God that are not so very different.

The two distinctions I would point out:

1.) Hell is not so much a "where" as it is a "what". What is hell? The punishment of God upon the unrighteous and unrepentant.

2.) Except in the most extreme cases, the only major distinction between our view of Hell and the traditional Christianity's view of Hell is that in almost every case, it is not a permanent state.

A few points for accuracy sake.

And it is my understanding that outer darkness is not even remotely the hell of fire and brimstone. It's a place in which one is cast after becoming a son of perdition and will be consumed and destroyed.

The traditional Christian hell is eternal fire and brimstone in which there is no relief from torment.

Well, modern day revelation has the following to say about Outer Darkness:

DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 76

25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,

26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.

27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

28 And while we were yet in the Spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision; for we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God, and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ—

29 Wherefore, he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.

30 And we saw a vision of the sufferings of those with whom he made war and overcame, for thus came the voice of the Lord unto us:

31 Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;

47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;

48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.

49 And we heard the voice, saying: Write the vision, for lo, this is the end of the vision of the sufferings of the ungodly.

The "fire and brimstone" imagery is certainly used. It may or may not be metaphorical -- but it probably is a metaphor to describe something far worse than "fire and brimstone."

And you used the word "destroyed" which could easily be misunderstood. Outer Darkness does not erase the person from existence, which is what some might take "destroyed" to mean. The Sons of Perdition will live forever because they are just as eternal as the rest of us.

I've never heard the Spirit prison described as hell but rather a place of waiting. The only hell that exists in the LDS faith that is, according to my understanding, is the state in which we no longer have the veil to protect us from seeing everything and we see our sins and when we are separated from Christ and God the Father. It's that kind of hell.

We do know that Spirit Prison is not a happy place by any means. But the true punishment for the unrepentant happens after the resurrection from what I understand.

We do understand that the same spirit which we choose to obey in this life will have power over us in the Spirit World. I can't remember the passage in the Book of Mormon, but I believe it was Alma that referred to it as with much the same verbiage as hell. I don't know if the word hell was ever used to refer to what we would call spirit prison.

The punishment after the resurrection at the day of judgment is described this way:

DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 19

15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

I think that we sometimes tend to forget that Joseph Smith really did have it by revelation from God that the punishment of the unrepentant is not something any of us want to risk. But it is this same section that tells us that the duration of that punishment is not "for all eternity." Those who are partakers of that punishment will ultimately have part in a kingdom of glory -- but the price to pay before getting there is one none of us should want to contemplate facing.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Faded

[rameumptom]

There IS an eternal hell. Whether Sons of Perdition will eventually be destroyed and recycled as matter depends on whether Brigham Young was correct in his speculating.

Sons of Perdition, imnsho, create their own hell. It is fire and brimstone, as taught in Revelation and D&C 76, because that is the torment they experience. Wherever they end up would be an eternal hell for them, simply because of what and who they are.

Interestingly, Joseph Smith once stated that if we ran out of room for Celestial worlds, we could just kick the devil out and create a heaven out of Outer Darkness. So, much of what makes a place a heaven or hell are the residents themselves. We see that in creating a Zion people, a City of Enoch, etc. The location wasn't holy until the people made it holy by being holy themselves.

As for Calvinism, it reminds me of the Zoramite prayer upon the Rameumptom (PC should appreciate this ). The people thanked God for saving them and condemning everyone else to destruction. They called him a merciful God, yet did not think that a God who would destroy most people really is not that merciful. When God just picks a people and says he'll save them for no particular reason, and then destroy everyone else for no particular reason, we have a God that is an uncaring tyrant.

If that is what God really is about, then it shows that mankind can be more merciful than God, as I've known many people to forgive terrible offenses made against them; while such a God could not or would not under any circumstance except by whim. In a TULIP view, God is not an absolute greatest, because he is not more merciful than mankind is. Such a God has the power to save, but chooses not to in a very uncaring way, with limiting the atonement, predestinating people to hell, etc. I personally would not want anything to do with such a God, as I would rather believe in mankind's greater mercy and goodness than in such a merciless being.

Thankfully, TULIP is not the only option. We can believe in a merciful God, who seeks to maximize salvation and only send to Outer Darkness those who adamantly refuse any other kingdom.

Faded, I would add the quote in D&C 19 refers to BOTH Spirit Prison AND Outer Darkness. Those in Spirit Prison will suffer hell UNTIL they fully and completely repent of all sins. Only then are they eligible for furlough. Those in Outer Darkness are no longer eligible for repentance. They fully choose to be Christ's enemy and refuse to repent, both in earth life and in the Spirit Prison. Because they do not accept Christ's atonement one whit, there is no other place for them except a kingdom with no glory: Outer Darkness.

Edited March 4, 2010 by rameumptom

[prisonchaplain]

It's my understanding that Charles Taze Russell left traditional Christianity (eventually to help form the Jehovah's Witnesses) because of his opposition to the doctrine of eternal hell. He could not reconcile that teaching with a loving God. I understand his struggle. Nevertheless, if the doctrine is true, and I believe God is true, then I must reconcile the two teachings. I do so by teaching hell with great somberness, and with heartache.

Whether hell is for all who reject God, or merely for "the Sons of Perdition," the result is the same. Some souls will experience torment at the hands of God. Oh yes, they brought it on themselves. They deserve it. But, it happens at the hands of God. What I figure is that those inhabitants would have turned the eternal kingdom into an eternal hell if they'd been allowed to enter it. Sin cannot enter the Kingdom--and this is why.

God is good and loving and merciful. But he is just. Those who perish are without excuse.

[marts1]

God is love, God is merciful. God is also just. Without justice I can't see how God could be God.

[Moksha]

There IS an eternal hell. Whether Sons of Perdition will eventually be destroyed and recycled as matter depends on whether Brigham Young was correct in his speculating.

Speculating is one of my favorite parts. Here is one from Moksha: All things from God will eventually return unto Him.

[Cassiopeia]

I DO NOT want this to come across as me saying, "You're wrong!" or anything like that. But I am completely puzzled by any Latter Day Saint making the case that "we don't believe in hell" or "we don't believe in anything similar to what other Christians believe." Actually, we believe in punishments from God that are not so very different.

The two distinctions I would point out:

1.) Hell is not so much a "where" as it is a "what". What is hell? The punishment of God upon the unrighteous and unrepentant.

2.) Except in the most extreme cases, the only major distinction between our view of Hell and the traditional Christianity's view of Hell is that in almost every case, it is not a permanent state.

A few points for accuracy sake.

Well, modern day revelation has the following to say about Outer Darkness:

The "fire and brimstone" imagery is certainly used. It may or may not be metaphorical -- but it probably is a metaphor to describe something far worse than "fire and brimstone."

And you used the word "destroyed" which could easily be misunderstood. Outer Darkness does not erase the person from existence, which is what some might take "destroyed" to mean. The Sons of Perdition will live forever because they are just as eternal as the rest of us.

We do know that Spirit Prison is not a happy place by any means. But the true punishment for the unrepentant happens after the resurrection from what I understand.

We do understand that the same spirit which we choose to obey in this life will have power over us in the Spirit World. I can't remember the passage in the Book of Mormon, but I believe it was Alma that referred to it as with much the same verbiage as hell. I don't know if the word hell was ever used to refer to what we would call spirit prison.

The punishment after the resurrection at the day of judgment is described this way:

I think that we sometimes tend to forget that Joseph Smith really did have it by revelation from God that the punishment of the unrepentant is not something any of us want to risk. But it is this same section that tells us that the duration of that punishment is not "for all eternity." Those who are partakers of that punishment will ultimately have part in a kingdom of glory -- but the price to pay before getting there is one none of us should want to contemplate facing.

How interesting, I was always told that the Spirit Prison was where those who had not accepted the gospel would be sent and there they would be ministered by those who had passed on before them and taught the gospel. That doesn't sound so horrible to me.

And I was always taught that fire and brimstone were metaphorical. *shrug*

You see it your way. I'll see it mine. God is not sadistical..it's man that paints Him that way putting humanly imperfect attributes on a loving and forgiving divine Heavenly Father and I'll say again, it's absolutely an abomination to paint our creator that way.

We should not fear God, but love God. If we fear God we may run from God.

I really get a kick out of people who are so quick to show the HORRIBLE reasons to be obedient rather than the wonderful reasons for serving with a whole heart, without fear.