Hypothetical: What would happen if..


danieljbelk
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What would happen if there was a person who started prophesying end time events, who got them true, who wasn't a member of the Church? Suppose the Prophet never spoke of any such revelations.

I ask this because supposedly only the President of the Church receives revelation for the Church, yet, does that mean that others can't receive revelation of disasters? Would this person's "authority" be greater than the Church President? Or better yet, does the devil give revelation of future events, that are true, to warn others? If the devil does that, then shouldn't the prophet receive better revelation?

I think it's a fascinating question because supposedly this person should not have the Holy Ghost stronger than a prophet. Could something like that occur?

(Take something like, "There will be a hurricane that will absolutely devastate the US economy and kill hundreds of people in Fall of 2011. This will occur after a California hurricane." Or maybe even giving specific dates, like, "There will be a hurricane in the first week of August of this year in Virginia.")

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I don't think the Prophet has the Holy Ghost stronger than anyone else. I think he knows how to listen to it better and I think he's given the keys and authority to preside over the body of the saints.

Having said that, many people throughout the world receive revelation that's specifically for them. As God's children we have a right to that inspiration. It's how we stay safe and learn many many thing.

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What would happen if there was a person who started prophesying end time events, who got them true, who wasn't a member of the Church? Suppose the Prophet never spoke of any such revelations.

I ask this because supposedly only the President of the Church receives revelation for the Church, yet, does that mean that others can't receive revelation of disasters? Would this person's "authority" be greater than the Church President? Or better yet, does the devil give revelation of future events, that are true, to warn others? If the devil does that, then shouldn't the prophet receive better revelation?

I think it's a fascinating question because supposedly this person should not have the Holy Ghost stronger than a prophet. Could something like that occur?

(Take something like, "There will be a hurricane that will absolutely devastate the US economy and kill hundreds of people in Fall of 2011. This will occur after a California hurricane." Or maybe even giving specific dates, like, "There will be a hurricane in the first week of August of this year in Virginia.")

To me this is like asking - what if someone is more fulfilling to you than your spouse? My covenant is a priesthood covenant with G-d and I support his Kingdom and his apointed servants.

The Traveler

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What would happen if there was a person who started prophesying end time events, who got them true, who wasn't a member of the Church? Suppose the Prophet never spoke of any such revelations.

I ask this because supposedly only the President of the Church receives revelation for the Church, yet, does that mean that others can't receive revelation of disasters? Would this person's "authority" be greater than the Church President? Or better yet, does the devil give revelation of future events, that are true, to warn others? If the devil does that, then shouldn't the prophet receive better revelation?

I think it's a fascinating question because supposedly this person should not have the Holy Ghost stronger than a prophet. Could something like that occur?

(Take something like, "There will be a hurricane that will absolutely devastate the US economy and kill hundreds of people in Fall of 2011. This will occur after a California hurricane." Or maybe even giving specific dates, like, "There will be a hurricane in the first week of August of this year in Virginia.")

Since this is the very first post you've ever made, I'm going to assume you are asking this for a very specific reason. ;) Mind filling us in and letting us know what you're looking for in this thread?

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I was curious at what the responses will be. It seems there's no consensus on it -

Here's what I've gathered if I've understood correctly:

Cassiopeia says its possible, but just that the authority is what separates someone like that from the president of the church.

Traveler argues that it doesn't matter - that person doesn't have the keys of the Priesthood.

marts1 says that it is impossible.

Cassiopeia and marts1 responses are quite different.

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Yep - you nailed it Funky! Whenever I hear about some end-times prophecy that is actually attached to a date, I'll stick that date in my work calendar.

But as you can see in that thread I linked, passing a set date doesn't put a dent in an end-times-prophecier's zeal. I'm sure if Mullenite were to come back, he'd still consider Wolfgramm a prophet - just prophecying of Jeb Bush's presidency!

LM

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ultimately each member has the ability to verify and check every revelation its why each of us has the Gift of the Holy Ghost and a personal relationship with God - we may not be entitled to receive revelation for the church but each of us can receive revelation to reject or verify something is from God

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Okay, help me here...because I thought that our faiths were on the same page with this one. If there is a prophet who is not a prophet of God, then we ought to avoid counsel from such. After all, seeking guidance from the future, or apart from God, is that not soothsaying--aka sorcery?

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Okay, help me here...because I thought that our faiths were on the same page with this one. If there is a prophet who is not a prophet of God, then we ought to avoid counsel from such. After all, seeking guidance from the future, or apart from God, is that not soothsaying--aka sorcery?

I think we are on the same page. Truth can come from invalid sources. We don't just believe we have the truth, but that we have the authority from God to carry forth God's plan. I could start a church tomorrow, call it The church of the Latter-day Christians, and have the same scriptures, same churches, same ordiances, same everything, but ti would still be a false religion. I could even prophecy, and those prophecies may be accurate, but they would not be sanctioned by God.

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I could even prophecy, and those prophecies may be accurate, but they would not be sanctioned by God.

"..it is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instruction for those in authority, higher than themselves..." (Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 21.)

Does what Joseph Smith say mean that others won't receive revelations from God, that could have world-wide implications, who don't have Priesthood authority? Or does it mean that you simply can ignore them?

Here's a better question: Say you are the Prophet - can you ignore others revelations, without losing your Priesthood? If someone came to you, warning of a hole in a dam, and you ignored it, then would you lose the power in your Priesthood (because of pride and vain ambitions)?

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Here is what lds.org states concerning Prophets and prophecy.

As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we are blessed to be led by living prophets—inspired men called to speak for the Lord, as did Moses, Isaiah, Peter, Paul, Nephi, Mormon, and other prophets of the scriptures. We sustain the President of the Church as prophet, seer, and revelator—the only person on the earth who receives revelation to guide the entire Church. We also sustain the counselors in the First Presidency and the members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators.

Like the prophets of old, prophets today testify of Jesus Christ and teach His gospel. They make known God's will and true character. They speak boldly and clearly, denouncing sin and warning of its consequences. At times, they may be inspired to prophesy of future events for our benefit.

We can always trust the living prophets. Their teachings reflect the will of the Lord, who declared: "What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same" (D&C 1:38).

Our greatest safety lies in strictly following the word of the Lord given through His prophets, particularly the current President of the Church. The Lord warns that those who ignore the words of the living prophets will fall (see D&C 1:14–16). He promises great blessings to those who follow the President of the Church:

"Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;

"For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.

"For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name's glory" (D&C 21:4–6).

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I suppose pam's quote of LDS.org answers my question:

The prophet is "the only person on the earth who receives revelation to guide the entire Church."

The Church typically includes the entire world, since thier is only one worldwide church. Though the loophole is that others could possibly receive revelation, but no one has to listen to them. I suppose the difference would be if this other prophesier said things contrary to the current President - "we can always trust the living prophets (read: president)".

Is that about right?

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Even if this person predicted 1000 events accurately, we should still not "follow" them.

Imagine the power they would have over the people of the earth if the majority of the population was willing to do whatever they told them to do?

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I seem to remember something about God would that everyone was a prophet. But I can't find the quote anywhere.

I think too often we become blinded by the view that the only prophet is the President of the Church. The Twelve Apostles are also prophets. In the Bible it even mentions Prophetesses.

I also disagree about the authority of the "break away" churches. We read:

D&C 38:26-27

26 For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there—and looketh upon his sons and saith I am just?

27 Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine.

The Church was commanded to remain one. But it didn't, the church split after Joseph Smith died. We were given a parable about being one. That parable is in verse 26.

If a man has twelve sons and is not a respecter of persons. Then all of those sons are obedient to the man. Can the man be just if he puts robes on one and tells him to sit in one place, then put rags on the other and tell him to sit somewhere else?

The answer is, No, the man can't be just. This is the same with God. Let's look at the parable again with God put in:

For [God] having twelve [churches], and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there—and looketh upon his [churches] and saith I am just?

Again, No, God cannot be just by being preferential to one church over another if both churches are obedient to Him.

This was given to us as an example of being one. If the Church would have remained one we wouldn't have to worry about having multiple churches with their own prophets. But because the Church couldn't obey that commandment and broke apart God cannot be a respecter of the various churches(as long as those churches are obedient).

So to the prophets of the other churches have validity? Yes they do, based on their obedience. It says so right in D&C 38.

So yes there can be prophets outside of the LDS Church.

1 Corinthians 12:10

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

The ability to prophesy is a gift of the Spirit. This opens it to anyone that the Spirit directs. If the Spirit gives me the gift to prophesy, my prophecy is just as valid as that of the President of the church. As long as the prophecy is from the Holy Spirit is is just as valid as any other prophecy given by the Holy Spirit.

Now does that prophecy give me the right to lead the Church or even start my own? No. That is something else completely. It doesn't mean that I should start a following and make people obey my every word. It just means that God had a message to deliver through me. It doesn't mean that that message is meant for everyone either.

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I agree with Cassi; the Prophet is the only person who has been given the authority to recieve revelations for the world and the chruch.

"Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. (Amos 3:7)"

We can all recieve personal revelations and revelations that have to do with those we have charge over (i.e.; a bishop may recieve revelation for his congragation, teacher may recieve revelation for teaching their class, parents can recieve revelatoin for leading their family), but the Lord has called His Prophet and He will reveal His great secrets for the world to him. Just a though: Why would God reveal a great secret to John Doe when He already has a Prophet? :)

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We sustain the prophets and apostles as prophets. However, that doesn't mean they're the only people in the world with the gift of prophecy; Joel 2:28-29 says, "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit." You could even argue that we've all been commanded to seek after the gift of prophecy (D&C 46:8).

However, yes, the president of the Church is the only one authorised to lead the world. Anyone who received the gift of prophecy and then attempted to usurp the president's role of leadership would distance themselves from God, the heavens would withdraw themselves, the Spirit of the Lord would be grieved, and that person would lose their gift. So basically I see it as a moot point.

God gives people the gifts they need to fulfil their personal stewardships. So while an individual could well receive prophecies about the world, they will be for the benefit of that person only, perhaps their family, as only the authorised president of the Church receives revelations for the world. People who try to extend themselves beyond their stewardships open themselves up to Satan's influence, and I wouldn't touch their prophecies with a barge pole.

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