Faith without works

[Flyonthewall]

Hello Carl,

My understanding (I'm not LDS) of Luke 18:18-20 and also Mathew 19:16-26 is not that Jesus was telling the young man that obedience to the ten commandments is the way to enter eternal life, that is law, not gospel.

Before showing him the way to eternal life, Jesus wanted to show him, and us, the righteous standard required by God and the total futility of seeking salvation by his own merits.

No one, except Christ, can keep the commandments (Math. 19:17) yet this self-righteous young man wouldn't admit his sin.

The commandments (the law) show us how sinful we are (Galatians 3:24) then knowing our depravity we fall at the feet of Christ and He saves us, not because we have kept the commandments or done other good works (Titus 3:5) but only because we believe. Genesis 15:6 And he (Abram) believed in the Lord and He accounted it to him as righteousness.(also Gal. 3:6) (James 2:23)

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Clearly our works don't save us nor do they keep us saved.

As for James he begins with the testing of our faith (1:3) and that faith is a gift (1: 17-18)

He is saying there is a faith that isn't really a faith but dead and does not save, one that is just a mental assent to the facts about Christ like the demons have. (2:19)

James isn't contrasting two methods of salvation (faith versus works) instead he contrasts two kinds of faith; one that is a living faith that saves and a dead faith, or "said faith" that doesn't.

Living faith produces works, dead faith, or a "said faith" doesn't.

Our works, or lack of, show our faith but we are not saved by them.

Isaiah 64:5-7

5 You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness,

Who remembers You in Your ways.

You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—

In these ways we continue;

And we need to be saved.

6 But we are all like an unclean thing,

And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;

We all fade as a leaf,

And our iniquities, like the wind,

Have taken us away.

7 And there is no one who calls on Your name,

Who stirs himself up to take hold of You;

For You have hidden Your face from us,

And have consumed us because of our iniquities.

Jesus and the apostles are all in agreement.

I look at that incident with the rich man in a slightly different light...

When the rich man asked what he must do to gain eternal life, the first thing Jesus asked about was obedience. Not if he was perfect, but did he keep the commandments. Once it was established that he keeps the commandments, Jesus then asked him to exercise his faith and give up all his riches and follow Him.

If his faith was true, like that of his Apostles, the young man would have done it.

The young man had faith in the law, not in Christ. The young man followed the law, keeping the commandments, but did not have faith in Christ as he did not do as Christ asked. He sought eternal life, but his actions showed he did not believe Jesus could give it.

As James said, faith without works is dead, and dead faith, cannot save, being alone.

As for the Isaiah passage, do not try and project that universally. Isaiah was talking to an apostate Israel who thought they were safe because they were still performing sacrifice, and that their works alone would keep them in good standing with the Lord.

The good works of the faithful are not as filthy rags, but are pleasing to the Lord. "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

The Lord would not tell us to put our filthy rags forward for all to see, and who would glorify God because of them?

[Soninme]

I look at that incident with the rich man in a slightly different light...

When the rich man asked what he must do to gain eternal life, the first thing Jesus asked about was obedience. Not if he was perfect, but did he keep the commandments. Once it was established that he keeps the commandments, Jesus then asked him to exercise his faith and give up all his riches and follow Him.

I see Romans chapter 3 as telling us that no one (except Christ of course) keeps the commandments;

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“ There is none righteous, no, not one;

11 There is none who understands;

There is none who seeks after God.

12 They have all turned aside;

They have together become unprofitable;

There is none who does good, no, not one.

13 “ Their throat is an open tomb;

With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;

“ The poison of asps is under their lips”

14 “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.

15 “ Their feet are swift to shed blood;

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;

17 And the way of peace they have not known.

18 “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The good works of the faithful are not as filthy rags, but are pleasing to the Lord. "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

The Lord would not tell us to put our filthy rags forward for all to see, and who would glorify God because of them?

I do agree the works of the faithful are pleasing to the Lord as we are called to them. (Ephesians 2:10)

Those works though aren't what save us or keep us saved. (Ephesians 2:8-9)(Titus 3:5)

Faith comes first. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him,.

Isaiah though is speaking of those who "need to be saved" (Isa. 64:5) without true faith, works are as filthy rags.

[Soninme]

I look at that incident with the rich man in a slightly different light...

When the rich man asked what he must do to gain eternal life, the first thing Jesus asked about was obedience. Not if he was perfect, but did he keep the commandments. Once it was established that he keeps the commandments, Jesus then asked him to exercise his faith and give up all his riches and follow Him.

I see Romans chapter 3 as telling us that no one (except Christ of course) keeps the commandments;

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“ There is none righteous, no, not one;

11 There is none who understands;

There is none who seeks after God.

12 They have all turned aside;

They have together become unprofitable;

There is none who does good, no, not one.

13 “ Their throat is an open tomb;

With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;

“ The poison of asps is under their lips”

14 “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.

15 “ Their feet are swift to shed blood;

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;

17 And the way of peace they have not known.

18 “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The good works of the faithful are not as filthy rags, but are pleasing to the Lord. "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

The Lord would not tell us to put our filthy rags forward for all to see, and who would glorify God because of them?

I do agree the works of the faithful are pleasing to the Lord as we are called to them. (Ephesians 2:10)

Those works though aren't what save us or keep us saved. (Ephesians 2:8-9)(Titus 3:5)

Faith comes first. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him,.

Isaiah though is speaking of those who "need to be saved" (Isa. 64:5) without true faith, works are as filthy rags.

[Flyonthewall]

I see Romans chapter 3 as telling us that no one (except Christ of course) keeps the commandments;...

Romans 3 is part of a larger sermon that is addressing Jews and gentiles and there being no advantage(profit) of being a Jew over being a gentile, as God will render to all men according to their works.

The Jews had the Law of Moses, but salvation does not come thru the Law of Moses. It comes thru Christ.

Romans 8 does a good job explaining that to be "in" Christ, we must walk by the spirit. To WALK in the spirit means action, deeds, works if you will....not the works of the law of Moses, but in obedience to the word of the Lord.

We are saved by grace through faith. James goes to great lengths to make sure we know faith without works is dead, and it is in fact our works that perfects our faith.

The rich young man had enough faith to seek Jesus and ask what is needed for eternal life, but his faith was not perfected by his works, by not doing as he was told by Jesus.

Works are not what saves us, but they must be present for our faith to be complete.

[prisonchaplain]

What I don't understand is that if it's all about having faith and works are secondary, then why did Jesus say to the rich man that the way to heaven was all about obedience to the ten commandments? (Luke 18: 18-20) He didn't answer by saying that it was just about accepting Him and that the commandments weren't important, or that his works would come later as a result of his belief in Him. He clearly said that it was about obedience to his commandments FIRST, yet we as LDS are told that we're "wrong" in thinking this? It seems like our thinking is more aligned with what the Saviour taught as opposed to the 'saved' denominations who seem to base their whole entire belief on eternal salvation on one or two verses from the apostle Paul. Even the apostle James seems to side more with what Jesus taught over what Paul says. (James 2:14-17) Nothing against what the apostle Paul wrote, but if I have to choose between what Paul wrote and what Jesus spoke, then for me it would be a no-brainer that I would go with what the Saviour taught.

Carl, I do believe that to say one believes in Jesus, and yet live their life for the Devil, is false doctrine. On the other hand, in Jesus encounter with the rich young man, the fellow was all but bragging that he had obeyed the commands. Not just the 10, but the 613! Jesus response is the deal with him at this level. He demonstrates that the guy can't get past command #1...love God more than anything.

You could argue that therefore the commands are important. I'd suggest rather that only Jesus can empower us to tackle the commands.

[Nahilolo]

My understanding is that when you have faith and accept Jesus then you are moved by the spirit and strive to do good works. But works alone will not give you salvation. Ghandi no matter how much good he did and no matter how righteous of a life he lived will not go to heaven because he did not have faith in Jesus. I'm not sure how much I personally believe this but I was raised raised in a Christian non-LDS church and this was the general teaching.

[pam]

My understanding is that when you have faith and accept Jesus then you are moved by the spirit and strive to do good works. But works alone will not give you salvation. Ghandi no matter how much good he did and no matter how righteous of a life he lived will not go to heaven because he did not have faith in Jesus. I'm not sure how much I personally believe this but I was raised raised in a Christian non-LDS church and this was the general teaching.

I know this is what many Christian people believe. Personally i don't. There are millions and millions and millions of people who never heard of Christ that were good, hardworking people.

As LDS we believe that all who did not have that the opportunity will have the opportunity to learn of Christ in the next life and make a decision as to whether to accept Him or not.

None of us can say that Ghandi will not make it to heaven. We are not the judges.

[Soninme]

John 15:4-5 Jesus said; "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

I believe we are all clear that faith in Christ comes first. No work (production of fruit) can be done without saving faith.

Once we place our (true) faith in Christ then He empowers us to walk the walk.

It's all Him and not me.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Love fullfills the commandments.

John 15:10-13 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

"These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Romans 13:9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

If keeping His commandments are necessary for being or staying saved then ask yourself; "Do I do these every time?

If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also.

Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two.

But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.

Basically everything commanded by Jesus in Mathew 5 and 6

This is why I know it's all about Him and not me, if being or staying saved has anything to do with my works then I have a reason to boast.

[pam]

This is why I know it's all about Him and not me, if being or staying saved has anything to do with my works then I have a reason to boast.

But boasting is being prideful. Aren't we warned in the scriptures against this?

[Flyonthewall]

John 15:4-5 Jesus said; "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

I believe we are all clear that faith in Christ comes first. No work (production of fruit) can be done without saving faith.

Once we place our (true) faith in Christ then He empowers us to walk the walk.

It's all Him and not me.

He empowers you to walk the walk, but what if you don't walk? Is one still saved without walking the walk? I get the feeling that what you refer to as "saving faith" includes works, or production of fruit.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Love fullfills the commandments.

The scripture does not say that He made them sons of God, but that "to them gave he power to become sons of God".

John 15:10-13 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

"These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

Notice the conditional "IF" at the front of this? In this IF-THEN structure, if the first part is not done, does the second part happen anyway?

1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Romans 13:9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

If keeping His commandments are necessary for being or staying saved then ask yourself; "Do I do these every time?

If I strive to keep the commandments but fall short, is there no way to rectify this? Is there no means given by which sin can be cleansed.

If keeping the commandments are not neccessary then they are not commandments at all, but merely suggestions or a good idea.

This is why I know it's all about Him and not me, if being or staying saved has anything to do with my works then I have a reason to boast.

This is a very confusing part for me...Commandments are given, but they are optional.

Saving faith produces works or fruit, but if the fruit is not there, then....what?

It is the grace of God that gives our works any type of value, so we still have no room to boast.

[Soninme]

He empowers you to walk the walk, but what if you don't walk? Is one still saved without walking the walk?

If by "don't walk" you mean "don't love God and don't love others" faith without works is dead; or was never alive to begin with.

I get the feeling that what you refer to as "saving faith" includes works, or production of fruit.

Saving faith will produce fruit, some hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty, some ???

I will leave that up to Him.

Quote:

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Love fullfills the commandments.

The scripture does not say that He made them sons of God, but that "to them gave he power to become sons of God".

If one has truly received Christ then one is truly saved.

Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

1 John 5:12-13 He who has (present tense) the Son has ( present tense) life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Quote:

John 15:10-13 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

"These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

"Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.

Notice the conditional "IF" at the front of this? In this IF-THEN structure, if the first part is not done, does the second part happen anyway?

If we don't love God and love others then no, we will not abide in His love.

If I strive to keep the commandments but fall short, is there no way to rectify this? Is there no means given by which sin can be cleansed.

Praise be to the Father and the Son! 1 John 1:6-9 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If, or should I say when, we fall short, stumble, error, screw up, mess up, or whatever word for sin we choose, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.1 John 2:1

If keeping the commandments are not neccessary then they are not commandments at all, but merely suggestions or a good idea.

Again, I am not saying the commandments (loving God and loving others) aren't neccessary. I'm saying what Ephesians 2:8-10 says; For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Saved by grace through faith to do good works, not the other way around.

It is the grace of God that gives our works any type of value, so we still have no room to boast.

I agree if we abide in Christ then we are doing the good works "which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them".

[Flyonthewall]

If by "don't walk" you mean "don't love God and don't love others" faith without works is dead; or was never alive to begin with.

Saving faith will produce fruit, some hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty, some ???

I will leave that up to Him.

Is there more than one kind of faith? It sounds like you are saying there is an "introductory" faith, and then there is also a "saving" faith.

The introductory faith is what initially brings one to Christ, but if there are no works that follow, then that faith is not the saving faith, as saving faith will always produce good works.

LDS have always maintained that faith and works go hand in hand.

If one has truly received Christ then one is truly saved.

Then the logical question would be: How can one know if they have "truly" received Christ? Is it when good works begin?

If we don't love God and love others then no, we will not abide in His love.

Praise be to the Father and the Son! 1 John 1:6-9 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If, or should I say when, we fall short, stumble, error, screw up, mess up, or whatever word for sin we choose, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.1 John 2:1

I agree. We must practice the truth and walk in the light.

Again, I am not saying the commandments (loving God and loving others) aren't neccessary. I'm saying what Ephesians 2:8-10 says; For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Saved by grace through faith to do good works, not the other way around.

I agree if we abide in Christ then we are doing the good works "which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them".

To be completely honest, everytime I participate in a discussion about "saved by faith/works/grace, I always come away believing that the two sides have more in common than there are differences.

I believe that though we may use the same terms, we apply different meanings to them, and then when we try to overlay one position on top of the other, we try to do it by the terms used instead of what is actually meant by those terms, and it is very easy to talk past one another.

[Hemidakota]

I was always curious as to what non-LDS mean when they say "just believe and be saved." I've been in many discussions with members of protestant religions and they say that works are good, but not necessary for salvation. So I just have a few questions for anyone that holds the "works arent needed" belief.

What does believing in Christ and accepting Him as your Savior mean? And how does one do that?

Can we be saved without sincerely trying to keep the commandments of the Lord?

After one has accepted Christ and been saved, can one fall from grace through sinful actions?

What if one man believes in Christ and does works, and one man believes in Christ and is lacking in his works. It is different for them in the judgement?

Good morning Burst. Beside what has been stated already, I rather look within the church and noticed some of the Jewry issues that survived the times. "Through works, I am saved."

There are members, even within the leadership, who do the work but do not have the faith or vice versa. It is simply a balancing act between both and without the balancing act, being lopped sided, would not allow the Spirit to manifest itself on a daily basis or when called upon. We need to be mindful daily, to ensure we are measured equalling but do it for the right reasons - building His kingdom and glorifying the Savior.

The rhetoric grace issue, not to encourage the grace theme of many sectarian churches today, they are right though. Through grace, which grace is the Atonement of Jesus Christ, they are saved. Saved from what? Not returning home to a glorified kingdom. Noting heaven is a big real estate, grace can mean, the telestial kingdom or even the terrestrial kingdom. Through grace and acknowledging that Jesus is the Christ, after repentance is made in full, they can through grace be saved. The only drawback is, the lowest order within the Celestial Kingdom, requires saving ordinances (baptism by emersion and by appropriate authority). This is area where the sectarian issue would fail.

So again, before we think that sectarian churches do have not have the correct information, think of it on what I just stated. Through grace, they are saved but not in the fullness.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Hemidakota