House Passes Health Care Reform

[mrbeanroxs]

Its official. The Senate version of the Health Care bill is going to President Obama for his signature. House sends health care bill to Obama's desk - Health care reform- msnbc.com

[Just_A_Guy]

Thank you, House Dems, for giving the Republicans back the Congress this November. :)

[bytebear]

I know the liberals cheering for this victory, but I want to remind them that when it comes to shoving legislation through, the Republicans can do the same thing when they have control of the house and senate. This is the first vote in a generation or more that has no bipartisan support, including Medicare. It's a very dark day for American politics.

[bytor2112]

Question: Why does the Congress have the right to require Americans to purchase health insurance or pay a fine?

Question: What happens if people with pre-existing conditions actually buy health insurance and the insurance company is FORCED to pay for there condition? Won't they have to raise premiums? And why should the government be allowed to force insurance companies to pay for the previously uninsured?

Question: What will prevent the uninsured from just paying the fine and only buying health insurance when they are diagnosed with a serious illness?

[prisonchaplain]

Some realpolitik here--the Democrats were stuck one way or the other. If they didn't pass it, they'd look weak, and their President would have failed in his prime directive. If they passed it they risk the very problems already mentioned. Me thinks they figured they have a better chance with the latter.

[hethathathears]

Oh happy day!

Edited April 6, 2010 by hethathathears

[ADoyle90815]

:bouncingclap::bouncingclap:

[ADoyle90815]

[ColorMEreal]

I just feel absolutely sick inside. I feel like The Obama administration has taken the values and principals this country was founded on and shredded them right before our eyes...Is nothing sacred anymore???

[Elphaba]

I just feel absolutely sick inside. I feel like The Obama administration has taken the values and principals this country was founded on and shredded them right before our eyes...Is nothing sacred anymore???

Oh please. Sacred?

Were you equally as sick inside when Bush shredded the values and principles this country was founded on? Was nothing sacred then, including the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis due to his unfounded and obscene war?

Obama ran in a platform that included universal healthcare and he is staying true to that platform. If he weren't, when re-election came around you'd be calling him a liar for not doing what he said he would.

Elphaba

[Alice_Margatroid]

I just feel absolutely sick inside. I feel like The Obama administration has taken the values and principals this country was founded on and shredded them right before our eyes...Is nothing sacred anymore???

Oh please. Sacred?

Were you equally as sick inside when Bush shredded the values and principles this country was founded on? Was nothing sacred then, including the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis due to his unfounded and obscene war?

Obama ran in a platform that included universal healthcare and he is staying true to that platform. If he weren't, when re-election came around you'd be calling him a liar for not doing what he said he would.

Elphaba

I think the most important thing here is to get past this left and right arguing and realize that ALL of the politicians, and both parties, are running rampant and out of control.

The outright disregard of the constitution is coming from all angles. All of the problems in this nation pervade party boundaries.

People need to realize that the longer we divide ourselves over these issues the longer its going to take for something to actually change in this country.

All voting Democrat/Republican does is allow them to bring in a new face every 4 to 8 years to sell the same old agenda to us. There is no real change...though they would like us all to believe there is.

So, if you really want to see something different, take charge of the situation and get out of the positions the establishment has laid out for you to fill. Explore the founding documents and principles of this country and support the very few who follow them to a point. The only way to effect any real change at all is to get ourselves off this course of imperialistic globalization and free fall economy crashing recklessness that was been brought about by both parties.

We need to stop siding with the democrats and the republicans and get reacquainted with our founding values.

[FunkyTown]

This, I think everyone can agree with.

I'd be a bit curious, though, as to which founding father you would listen to.

Would you listen to Thomas Jefferson, who pushed for a unique, hands off-government and had a vision of an America of agrarian utopia and then went out and used public funds for the Louisiana Purchase?

Would you listen to Alexander Hamilton, who pushed for the development of an Urban America where manageable debt was incurred as a kind of international currency to allow the US to garner aid if it were ever at war?

George Washington agreed with Hamilton, but Ben Franklin agreed with Jefferson.

That's just monetary concerns. War, international strife. The Founding Fathers agreed with one thing: The Constitution as a living document, able to adapt to the conditions of the world. It was a simple document for a reason; It allowed the government to adapt and change.

I agree that it has been hijacked by those who don't seek the best for America, but I am always a bit wary whenever I hear these words as they inevitably are married to quotes by Jefferson. What, specifically, were you thinking of when you said we should get back to what the founding fathers preached?

I think the most important thing here is to get past this left and right arguing and realize that ALL of the politicians, and both parties, are running rampant and out of control.

The outright disregard of the constitution is coming from all angles. All of the problems in this nation pervade party boundaries.

People need to realize that the longer we divide ourselves over these issues the longer its going to take for something to actually change in this country.

All voting Democrat/Republican does is allow them to bring in a new face every 4 to 8 years to sell the same old agenda to us. There is no real change...though they would like us all to believe there is.

So, if you really want to see something different, take charge of the situation and get out of the positions the establishment has laid out for you to fill. Explore the founding documents and principles of this country and support the very few who follow them to a point. The only way to effect any real change at all is to get ourselves off this course of imperialistic globalization and free fall economy crashing recklessness that was been brought about by both parties.

We need to stop siding with the democrats and the republicans and get reacquainted with our founding values.

[Elphaba]

Thank you, House Dems, for giving the Republicans back the Congress this November. :)

Which actually demonstrates the political courage they exhibited.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

I think the most important thing here is to get past this left and right arguing and realize that ALL of the politicians, and both parties, are running rampant and out of control.

The outright disregard of the constitution is coming from all angles. All of the problems in this nation pervade party boundaries.

People need to realize that the longer we divide ourselves over these issues the longer its going to take for something to actually change in this country.

All voting Democrat/Republican does is allow them to bring in a new face every 4 to 8 years to sell the same old agenda to us. There is no real change...though they would like us all to believe there is.

So, if you really want to see something different, take charge of the situation and get out of the positions the establishment has laid out for you to fill. Explore the founding documents and principles of this country and support the very few who follow them to a point. The only way to effect any real change at all is to get ourselves off this course of imperialistic globalization and free fall economy crashing recklessness that was been brought about by both parties.

We need to stop siding with the democrats and the republicans and get reacquainted with our founding values.

Nonsense. If you believe your party reflects your values, then there is nothing wrong with supporting it, Democrat or Republican. If you don't, then you should seek other representation, as you apparently have.

Additionally, not agreeing with your political position does not mean someone has not explored the founding documents or the principles of this country. It only means they do not agree with your political position.

Elphaba

[bytor2112]

Were you equally as sick inside when Bush shredded the values and principles this country was founded on? Was nothing sacred then, including the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis due to his unfounded and obscene war?

Are you still outraged over the war in Iraq? (Is that still going on...you would never know by the media) Or how about the war in Afghanistan?

Obama ran in a platform that included universal healthcare and he is staying true to that platform. If he weren't, when re-election came around you'd be calling him a liar for not doing what he said he would.

He did indeed. BUT, that's not what we got....now is it? The problem is not health care reform, which I am ALL for, it's the sleazy way it occurred and in the end is it really what you or I or anyone else really hoped would occur?

Question: Why does the Congress have the right to require Americans to purchase health insurance or pay a fine? And if you couldn't afford it before, now you will be forced or fined so that they can say "we insured 32 million Americans?"

Question: What happens if people with pre-existing conditions actually buy health insurance and the insurance company is FORCED to pay for there condition? Won't they have to raise premiums? And why should the government be allowed to force insurance companies to pay for the previously uninsured?

Question: What will prevent the uninsured from just paying the fine and only buying health insurance when they are diagnosed with a serious illness?

I would ask how we are going to pay for this on top of everything else....but no one really cares...sadly.

Edited March 22, 2010 by bytor2112

[bytor2112]

By the way,..... Pharmaceutical Companies and Health Insurance companies are going to make billions.....they are HUGE winners in this bill.

Edited March 22, 2010 by bytor2112

[bytor2112]

Which actually demonstrates the political courage they exhibited.

Elphaba

Political courage huh. Ok. I recall President Clinton urging Democrats to pass Health Care reform or they would lose Congress. I think the Democrats took a look back at history and are hoping that this will work in their favor. 219 doesn't sound very courageous to me.

What about the will of the people? Do they count anymore? I suspect there are going to be a lot of very disappointed people out there that supported reform, because this bill falls so short on so many levels...at least from what I have thus far read.

[Just_A_Guy]

Question: Why does the Congress have the right to require Americans to purchase health insurance or pay a fine?

Dunno, but I bet we get to see SCOTUS answer that question in the next year or two.

Question: What happens if people with pre-existing conditions actually buy health insurance and the insurance company is FORCED to pay for there condition? Won't they have to raise premiums? And why should the government be allowed to force insurance companies to pay for the previously uninsured?

I think the idea is that the costs are offset by all those healthy people who are forced to buy insurance they don't need. You yourself said that "[p]harmaceutical Companies and Health Insurance companies are going to make billions.....they are HUGE winners in this bill."

Question: What will prevent the uninsured from just paying the fine and only buying health insurance when they are diagnosed with a serious illness?

Because ultimately the fine is calculated on an income-based sliding scale (I considered this option yesterday evening).

Elphaba, on a different tack: I was very ambiguous on the Iraq war (still am), but I'm curious how long the peace and improvements in government bought by a bloody conflict needs to last before an "unfounded and obscene" war becomes "worth it"?

Was French involvement in the American revolution "unfounded and obscene" in 1780?

Which actually demonstrates the political courage they exhibited.

I wish I could agree with you, but I think it's probably more a sense of "it can't happen to me." It's the same thinking that lead Stupak (the poor little dear) to think the White House and Congressional leadership will stand by the "concessions" it has made to him--even though he saw them pull the rug out from under Ben Nelson by yanking all those goodies that were used to buy his vote.

(Oh, check out Stupak's opponent's Facebook page. Yesterday he had barely a thousand fans.

Stupak's done.)

Edited March 22, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[bytor2112]

I think the idea is that the costs are offset by all those healthy people who are forced to buy insurance they don't need.

This assumes that the uninsured buy insurance rather than pay the fine.

[bytor2112]

Dunno, but I bet we get to see SCOTUS answer that question in the next year or two.

Speaking of.....do the lawsuits being filed by the majority of the States over this bill have any teeth?

[NeuroTypical]

My beefs:

1) The healthcare reform bill included government funding for abortions.

2) Pres. Obama passed an executive order saying there will be no government funding for abortions.

My first beef is obvious. My second beef is that the President is ursurping legislative authority. Our system of checks and balances means the legislature makes the laws, not the President.

I'm forced to admit that if the Republicans had pushed through the line-item veto deal a few years back, and Pres. Obama had used it to stop the federal funding of abortions, then I'd have no beef #2. But they didn't, and he didn't, so I do.

LM

[Just_A_Guy]

I haven't paid much attention to the state lawsuits, Bytor. But constitutional law issues boil down to the political leanings of the Supreme Court at the moment. Here, assuming none of SCOTUS' conservative bloc have a nasty accident in the next couple of years, everything's going to come down to Justice Anthony Kennedy.

[Elphaba]

Are you still outraged over the war in Iraq? (I that still going on...you would never know by the media)

Yes, I am still outraged that we went to war in Iraq. I wrote a number of posts about this a couple of years ago, and I feel my POV was vindicated.

Am I outraged we are still there? No, I'm not because while Obama has adjusted his timetable, the plan is still to leave--twelve thousand troops within the next six months, though they will be pulled from the safest places in Iraq. The remainder are scheduled to be withdrawn by next year.

Will I be surprised if more of these troops are left in place then we have been told? No, I won't. I predict a civil war will break out sometime in September or thereafter, and it will be up to us to protect the citizenry as much as possible. That means leaving troops in longer than planned, and I hate that.

So, I am extremely conflicted about this. But comparing Obama keeping a troop presence there to protect the citizenry that Bush's invasion put in danger, to Bush's invasion, is a ridiculous comparison.

Or how about the war in Afghanistan.

Obama always campaigned on invading Afghanistan, so as far as his campaign promises, there is no comparison.

Personally, however, it is far more complicated than that to me. We have seen real progress in the checking of Al Queda, but I have no illusions that is permanent. So is it worth it to have our sons and daughters dying there? No, I don't think it is. We can crush Al Queda, but not permanently, and probably not for decades. I do wish there were more discussion about this.

However, the real terror threat was always in Afghanistan, and the country elected Obama knowing he planned to escalate troop levels there. So, again, there is no comparison to what Bush did, and no I am not outraged, because Obama did not invade a country that had nothing to do with "terror."

And if someone calls this healthcare bill a blow to what is "sacred" again, I will bring up a real example of the conservative/Republican party truly destroying what is "sacred" again, because the innocent lives lost in the invasion and occupation of Iraq were far more sacred than anything this healthcare bill will destroy.

He did indeed. BUT, that's not what we got....now is it? The problem is not health care reform, which I am ALL for, it's the sleazy way it occurred and in the end is it really what you or I or anyone else really hoped would occur?

I really wish you would stop assuming what I hoped would occur.

Question: >snip< Question: >snip< Question: >snip<

I have yet to make any comments as to whether this form of universal healthcare will work. I don't know that yet, and neither does anyone else.

I suspect it will be much as has been true of other such undertakings in the near past. For example, the AMA was massively opposed to the legislation that eventually led to Medicare in the '50s and '60s, and was supported in that by the Republican party and fellow conservatives, including Ronald Reagan (despite his claims otherwise while debating Carter).

There are numerous examples of dire predictions if Medicare (or its previous incarnations) legislation actually passed, and many of them sound like the same apocalyptic claims of many conservatives today, including the threat of a drastic decline in medical care, but that did not happen. And, today, conservative Medicare recipients cling to it ferociously, some of which was demonstrated at the Tea Party meetings last summer.

Until some time has passed, I will not know the results of the legislation. Of what I do know, some makes no sense to me. For example, I think it is ridiculous to waste the cost of $250 to individual Medicare recipients to help cover the costs of prescriptions. To most people in a bind because of the cost of meds, $250 won't matter spit because many drugs cost that much in one month. Yet it adds up to a ridiculous amount of money spent by the government to fund it.

I also think the cut-off of $200,000 is absurd, though I think many Americans think that is a flat amount, and not AGI, which makes a tiny bit more sense, but not much. Well, none at all. Two hundred thousand is not the huge amount of money it has been in the recent past, especially to a large family. If you're going to tax the "wealthy," $200,000 ain't them.

This is the first I've commented on this healthcare legislation. As I said, I'm going to wait and see how it all pans out, as there are as many opinions of how this will happen as there are stars in the sky--except, of course, on lds.net.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

Political courage huh. Ok. I recall President Clinton urging Democrats to pass Health Care reform or they would lose Congress. I think the Democrats took a look back at history and are hoping that this will work in their favor.

Actually, Clinton's healthcare efforts are one reason Democrats lost Congress, so my comment that this was a politically courageous move still applies.

219 doesn't sound very courageous to me.

I agree it's not for all of them, so I'd be willing to re-write my statement to read that it was politically courageous for certain Democrats, though not for all. But I suspect this is true for more than you imagine given November is just around the corner, and there are a significant number of people who are very angry today. Heck, I was 29 just last year and here I am an old lady!

Elphaba

[lost87]

just wanted to let everyone know that according to gallup, presidential approval ratings have gone up since the vote last night...so despite what republicans are saying about Americans hating this...there are clearly some who don't, otherwise, ratings would have dropped.