My Plan -- What do you think?

[MsQwerty]

there are no victims, only volunteers.

Tell that to all the highschool kids who commit suicide each year. Tell it to women who are raped. Tell it to children who are abused. There ARE victims - denying that reality is dangerous and cruel for those who suffer through no fault of their own.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Yes, although Gwen qualified what she meant, I'm adverse to people who have been victimized being held responsible.

However, here's what happened in the lesson today. I did what I planned, although I was more disguising of the situation so it wasn't a dead ringer for the bullying incident I described in the opening post.

I don't think the girls in question "got it". I don't think they saw the indirect reference to their own behavior -- it was the bullies who participated the most, and when I asked questions, they gave these answers:

1. Why do bullies bully people?

Answer from the ringleader girl: to make themselves feel better than others, to attract attention, or just because they are mean.

2. Would you want to be friends with a bully like the one in my story?

They all answered no, the bullies being the loudest.

When I was blunt that "if you ever feel like bullying someone, then think twice, because it's not Christlike behavior, and I'm sure Heavenly Father would consider it a sin". We had just talked about the law of justice and mercy , and I drew a link between unrepentent sins, and the D&C statement that "if they will not repent they must suffer even as I".

Then we had a game and everyone participated happily. They were attentive the whole time and it was a good lesson.

So, if there is fall-out, then let it rain....if the girls DID get my thinly veiled reference to their own behavior, and were offended it didn't show.

My daughter was disappointed they didn't apologize to her for their behavior, she said. She was good, and kept quiet through the whole bullying section of the lesson. But she participated wholeheartedly in all the other parts on the atonement....

If the parents are offended, well....too bad in my view....we tried that route and it didn't work.

FYI, since we dont' always get closure on what people do with the advice given, I thought I'd report back.

Edited March 29, 2010 by mormonmusic

[Wingnut]

Not sure I can agree with Gwen that there are no victims, only volunteers.

Since Gwen seems to be taking the heat for this, I just want to point out that she didn't actually say that. Ladykemma did:

there are no victims, only volunteers.

[Gwen]

Since Gwen seems to be taking the heat for this, I just want to point out that she didn't actually say that. Ladykemma did:

thank you wing, somehow i completely missed ladykemma's post. i thought the comment was in reference to this post i made....

something you can do for your daughter in the meantime is teach her how not to be a target. the bullies pick her for a reason. i am in no way saying it is her fault. but there are things she can do to reduce the odds of being targeted. how is her posture and body language? does she make good eye contact when talking to ppl? can she speak confidently or forcefully if needed? those kinds of things change a lot. if she is being targeted at church she may be at school as well.

and just to make sure no one missed it... though i believe in protecting yourself in more ways than "fighting" there is no excuse for bullying and no one is "asking for it".

oh lol and i'm very glad the lesson went well.

[Rico]

I am fed up dealing with Adult Bullies right now and all my life I have run into people who find bullying acceptable they always find the most righteous, intelligent person and try to rip them apart. Right now my branch is being torn apart by an adult bully. Their behaviour is wrong and they should be told that THEIR behavior is wrong in no uncertain terms now.

Thanks, clap, promote this to the top, sticky it, What else can I say? I think church leaders would be surprised to found out just how many people go inactive because of adult bullies in the church. I say surprised because I haven't heard a general conference talk on it.

There are too many bullying Elder's Quorum Presidents and Young Men Presidents out there and this turns off way too many people from the Church. They have been allowed to be bullies as kids and they think it's appropriate behavior and have continued it into the day.

By the way, the only adult bullies I have found in the church have been long time members, converts tend to strive their best to follow the gospel as the missionaries taught them.

[Wingnut]

Thanks, clap, promote this to the top, sticky it, What else can I say? I think church leaders would be surprised to found out just how many people go inactive because of adult bullies in the church. I say surprised because I haven't heard a general conference talk on it.

There are too many bullying Elder's Quorum Presidents and Young Men Presidents out there and this turns off way too many people from the Church. They have been allowed to be bullies as kids and they think it's appropriate behavior and have continued it into the day.

By the way, the only adult bullies I have found in the church have been long time members, converts tend to strive their best to follow the gospel as the missionaries taught them.

I disagree with you. Your commentary is also different from Elgama's situation. She has a problem of her child(ren) being bullied by adults. That is a huge problem if and when it happens. Adults bullying other adults...well, I have a different view on that. By the time you can be considered an adult, you really need to have developed more mature coping and communication skills and a little bit tougher skin. I say that, being one of the least thick-skinned people I know, who is very prone to crying easily. But when you're an adult, you really need to toughen up.

[pam]

To add to what Wingnut said...I find far too many people ready to put the blame on others and then want to cry foul.

I'm not talking about Elgama's situation. She is dealing, as Wingnut mentioned, with adults and children.

In my 50+ years of being a member of the Church I've dealt with all levels of people. With all different personalities. Some who were overbearing and others who did nothing and left all to everyone else. You just have to get over it sometimes and do what YOU need to do and quit worrying about the others. If you are letting someone else affect your testimony or activity in the Church, perhaps looking within is the place to start.

ps. The use of the word YOU is meant generically.

p.s.s. Sorry music for hijacking your thread. Rico brought up the point and I wanted to respond.

Edited March 29, 2010 by pam

[Rico]

I disagree with you. Your commentary is also different from Elgama's situation. She has a problem of her child(ren) being bullied by adults. That is a huge problem if and when it happens. Adults bullying other adults...well, I have a different view on that. By the time you can be considered an adult, you really need to have developed more mature coping and communication skills and a little bit tougher skin. I say that, being one of the least thick-skinned people I know, who is very prone to crying easily. But when you're an adult, you really need to toughen up.

Maybe I am wrong. Wingnut. Do you think it would be a good idea to go to the Meeting House and have a talk directly to the offending person and when it turns into a shouting and fistfight match, then I keep up with it? By the way, it did reach a shouting match.....I left before it turned to a fistfight.

You are saying I am wrong, so I challenge YOU to tell me what to do differently.

[Guest mormonmusic]

Maybe I am wrong. Wingnut. Do you think it would be a good idea to go to the Meeting House and have a talk directly to the offending person and when it turns into a shouting and fistfight match, then I keep up with it? By the way, it did reach a shouting match.....I left before it turned to a fistfight.

You are saying I am wrong, so I challenge YOU to tell me what to do differently.

I actually empathize with Rico. The physical characteristics I was born with have required me to put up with bullying from adults over the years, as has my sister who has the same physical characteristic. And we are both adults (through most of our lives, we looked a lot younger than we are).

People are generally unsympathetic, thinking we're blaming others, but we both testify it's real.

As I've gotten older, the bullying has reduced significantly as I look more my age.

So, I empathize with Rico that adult bullying does in fact occur. And it does occur in the Church. I've experienced it from Stake Leaders and also Ward leaders.

How do you handle it? First, you stand up to the person. Let them know you won't do what it is they are bullying you to do. If they object, you need some kind of a final word to end the conversation and punctuate the fact that you won't be cooperating or agreeing to whatever they want you to do. You can't let it escalate into physical violence -- that's why you need an escape mechanism, such as "Well, I've shared my reasons for not agreeing to this, so you'll have to find a way to accomplish your objective without me. Now, I have to go to the bathroom something fierce and then I have a commitment elsewhere..." And then leave.

You might have to do this a few times if they keep coming at you at different times, but remember, whoever loses their temper loses the battle and the war. You have to keep it on a gentleman/gentlewoman's level at all times.

If the bullying gets to be too overbearing, and you've done everything in your power, then go to the priesthood leader to whom the bully reports to. I did with this a bullying high councillor. Two Sundays later he was reassigned to a different Ward. I told my priesthood leader, a member of the SP of his overbearing behavior, and the list was long.

I said his behavior made me regret I'd ever accepted the calling and its challenges, and if they chose to reassign him to a different Ward, I wouldn't object.

Then, they reassigned him. In my favor was the fact that I lived in a Ward that struggled to find leaders and had an above-average amount of drama, as many of my other posts will attest.

If your conflict has degenerated into shouting, then it's time to get someone else involved, then avoid situations where the bully is likely to bully you further until it blows over. If he comes after you, then get a priesthood leader involved.

That's my take on it; and I've had to deal with many bullies over the years....adult ones while I was an adult.

Edited April 2, 2010 by mormonmusic