The Mark of a Free Man?

[Guest mormonmusic]

Someone once said that "the mark of a free man is that ever-gnawing uncertainty about whether he is right".

Do you think that's a true statement?

(I just realized this belongs in General Discussion, not LDS gospel discussion...sorry)

Edited March 27, 2010 by mormonmusic

[pam]

Is this a LDS gospel related topic?

[Guest mormonmusic]

No, I edited it to indicate I put it in the wrong place, and then read your message -- can you move it Pam? I made a mistake and couldn't figure out how to delete it. Any help you can offer would be much appreciated!

***Addendum -- thanks for moving it here Pam!

Edited March 27, 2010 by mormonmusic
Pam moved the post

[Moksha]

On a technical note regarding uncertainty, the last I heard the mechanical and fluid dynamics engineers at BYU were still working on Heisenberg Compensators. Does anyone know if there has been any progress? I imagine the Religious Studies Department is as anxious as I am to find out.

[marts1]

Thiers a saying "the truth will set you free"....

[Just_A_Guy]

I disagree . . . sort of.

It's important to critically evaluate one's own opinions. On the other hand--I can't remember who it was that came up with that saying about people who are so open-minded that their brains fall out; but I agree with the sentiment.

[HEthePrimate]

Well, I have my doubts that "ever-gnawing uncertainty" describes somebody who's free...

But your point is well-taken in that a person who is certain they are always right is a prisoner of his/her own viewpoint, and unwilling/unable to learn. Perhaps we could say that a free person is one who is humble enough to recognize that s/he may not know all the answers, and is therefore willing to learn. Think of Socrates.

HEP

[deseretgov]

In dozens of movies they have people fighting for freedom. And then once they win the free people now wonder what they should do.

I think that is the mark of a free man, deciding what to do today.

[Guest mormonmusic]

In dozens of movies they have people fighting for freedom. And then once they win the free people now wonder what they should do.

I think that is the mark of a free man, deciding what to do today.

I think this is a good definition of freedom, but I agree with some of the others above who said that the kind of freedom implied by the quotation has to do with freedom from arrogance -- if you're open to having your ideas revised, and are willing to admit you're wrong, then you're free from closed-mindedness, arrogance and other untoward character flaws.

In terms of being "ever-gnawing", perhaps that's more painful or relentless wording than is necessary. I tend to agree.

But I'll say one thing; I still have a bit of uncertainty about things like how right I am in my religion, even though I'm a Mormon. I've had spiritual experiences in and out of the Church which has made the Holy Ghost "non-exclusive" to the LDS Church, testifying of truth everywhere. And I supposed part of me looks with interest to that day when I leave this earth and will know for a surety of at least one thing --- whether this belief I have of the immortality of the Soul is actually true, and perhaps, more evidence to indicate the plan of salvation is what I think it is.

Now, I have a question -- if you're not one of the people are who are blessed to "know for a surety" through visions etc of the truthfullness of the LDS church, at one point in the Plan of Salvation do you think you'll no longer have to have faith ? Will this happen only after the final judgment and assignment to kingdoms? Will the average person be expected to live life in this sometimes confused state that requires faith in things we cannot see, but which are true, until it's completely over? Or is there a point beforehand when everyone willl know that those Mormon Missionaries who came to your door actually had "the truth thing" ready for you, from the get-go?

[marts1]

I think very very few if any would get to a state of a fulness of knowledge in this life.

[Finrock]

Good evening mormonmusic. Happy Sabbath! :)

Now, I have a question -- if you're not one of the people are who are blessed to "know for a surety" through visions etc of the truthfullness of the LDS church, at one point in the Plan of Salvation do you think you'll no longer have to have faith ? Will this happen only after the final judgment and assignment to kingdoms? Will the average person be expected to live life in this sometimes confused state that requires faith in things we cannot see, but which are true, until it's completely over? Or is there a point beforehand when everyone willl know that those Mormon Missionaries who came to your door actually had "the truth thing" ready for you, from the get-go?

I'm sure you are familiar with Alma 32 that teaches some profound things about faith and knowledge. Even though what Alma teaches is probably pretty self-evident to you, please allow me to give you my understanding of what Alma is saying.

First, Alma teaches that a person gains his faith as a result of hearing God's word and giving, if only a portion of their heart, so that God's word can be planted within. Alma then compares the word of God to a seed. He teaches that if a person accepts this seed and plants it in their heart and nourishes the seed, that the seed will begin to grow and to expand. I understand this to mean that if a person accepts God's word and begins to apply the principles of the gospel in to their life, they will begin to experience the positive and good consequences of their obedience. When a person experiences these things Alma says that this will increase their faith even if they do not have a perfect knowledge of all things yet. But, Alma also says that when a person experiences the personal growth as a result of the gospel in their life, that not only is their faith increased, but also they must say to themselves that the gospel, or as Alma says, the seed, is good because it is growing and expanding. At this point Alma asks a question:

"31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed?"

To which Alma replies:

"31 I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.

32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.

33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.

34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.

35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?"

So, here is the point of my post. What did Alma say? He said as a person experiences the good results of the gospel in their life, they know with a perfect knowledge that the gospel is good. I know what Alma is talking about because I have experienced, felt, and seen the good results of living the gospel in my life and I "know" with a perfect knowledge that the gospel is true and good and "[my] faith is dormant" pertaining to this. In other words, the status of the gospel of Jesus Christ is not a matter of faith for me, it is a matter of perfect knowledge. And, just as Alma continues to explain in subsequent verses, this does not mean that I have a perfect knowledge of all things, but there are things that I know and wherein my faith is dormant. In none of the things that I know did my knowledge come about through visions or heavenly visitations but rather by simple and quiet spiritual experiences over a period of time as given by the Holy Ghost.

We don't need visions or extra-special visitations to have a perfect knowledge of eternal truths. If you want to know if serving others is good and right, then serve others selflessly and you will know it is good and true. Once you've experienced the joy and happiness that comes from living a selfless life of service, you don't need faith to accept that principle. And so on...

Regards,

Finrock

[HiJolly]

Uncertainty can be compared to doubt. I think doubt is dangerous, but also a necessary thing in a thinking person. As President Brown once said,

"He who has never doubted, has never thought."

-- Hugh B. Brown

So with that in mind, here's a few related thoughts.

The downside:

Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might

win by fearing to attempt.

-- William Shakespeare,

Measure for Measure, Act 1

The upside:

"To refuse to doubt, think about or question what you are told

is to miss an opportunity to talk to God"

-- Father Leo Booth

The annoying truth:

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and

the intelligent are full of doubt."

-- Bertrand Russell

The uplifting truth:

"Living with ambiguity is a form of intellectual honesty, of

humility. It is only when we admit that we don't know that we

are receptive to what lessons may be taught. In some strange

way, it also brings an inner peace since we are no longer

fighting reality to maintain our inner fantasies on how things

should be. While I am characterizing it as an intellectual

process, it also has spiritual implications, since only an open

mind is capable of hearing God."

-- Andy Piereder (on Eyring-L)

[Blackmarch]

Someone once said that "the mark of a free man is that ever-gnawing uncertainty about whether he is right".

Do you think that's a true statement?

(I just realized this belongs in General Discussion, not LDS gospel discussion...sorry)

that might be a good rule of thumb... but cannot be an absolute-

If so then one would have to conclude beings suchas God and Christ are not free.

[Traveler]

The path to freedom is discipline. The way of the slave is the inability to be self disciplined.

The Traveler