Let's talk about transubstantiation.

[Dominic_Korozya]

I have a good idea on how we can begin, do you know about the Seder meal?

P.S. But go ahead and post what ever you please.

[pam]

P.S. But go ahead and post what ever you please.

As long as it falls within the rules of the site.

[Dominic_Korozya]

As long as it falls within the rules of the site.

What restrictions are there?

[pam]

They are in the site rules that you agreed to when you registered for the site.

[Dravin]

A refresher in case anyone needs it: Terms & Conditions » LDS Mormon Network

[pam]

Dravin are you just following me around today to provide links to my comments? hahahaha

[Dominic_Korozya]

A refresher in case anyone needs it: Terms & Conditions » LDS Mormon Network

Ah... okay then... I guess I started this thread for nothing?

Is it against forum rules if I provide scripture and explain why the Catholic Church believes what it does about the Eucharist?

[Connie]

The LDS church does not believe in transubstantiation. Our sacrament is purely symbolic, just as Christ instituted it. LDS.org - Support Materials Chapter - Sacrament

I don't know anything about the Seder meal. What's that?

[Connie]

Is it against forum rules if I provide scripture and explain why the Catholic Church believes what it does about the Eucharist?

I don't think so. Please do, i'm interested.

[Dominic_Korozya]

The LDS church does not believe in transubstantiation. Our sacrament is purely symbolic, just as Christ instituted it. LDS.org - Support Materials Chapter - Sacrament

Just as with protestants.

I don't know anything about the Seder meal. What's that?

I'd love to be the one to tell you!

I don't think so. Please do, i'm interested.

You have made my day.

Give me one moment and I will post it up for you.

[Dravin]

Ah... okay then... I guess I started this thread for nothing?

Is it against forum rules if I provide scripture and explain why the Catholic Church believes what it does about the Eucharist?

Nope it is perfectly acceptable to explain your beliefs, just don't attack others to do so.

So something like:

Example A: X and Y is why/what the Catholic Church believes in/about transubstantiation.

Is perfectly fine. The below however:

Example B: The Mormons/Protestants/Baptists/Jehovah's Witnesses are false religions because they don't believe in transubstantiation/X/Y and Joseph Smith/Martian Luther/(Not sure who the Baptist equivalent would be) was an evil vile person who was out to deceive all you fools!

Is against the rules. You can inform but not attack, so as long as your intent is to share your beliefs and explain why you believe the way you do as opposed to attacking and tearing down the beliefs of others you are golden.

[Dominic_Korozya]

Nope it is perfectly acceptable to explain your beliefs, just don't attack others to do so.

So something like:

Example A: X and Y is why/what the Catholic Church believes in/about transubstantiation.

Is perfectly fine. The below however:

Example B: The Mormons/Protestants/Baptists/Jehovah's Witnesses are false religions because they don't believe in transubstantiation/X/Y and Joseph Smith/Martian Luther/(Not sure who the Baptist equivalent would be) was an evil vile person who was out to deceive all you fools!

Is against the rules. You can inform but not attack, so as long as your intent is to share your beliefs and explain why you believe the way you do as opposed to attacking and tearing down the beliefs of others you are golden.

I believe you just broke the forum rules.

I'm sorting that post out, just a little longer yet.

[Dominic_Korozya]

1a - In Egypt, with Moses, the Irealites had to kill a lamb and sacrifice it didn't they?

1b - It had to be a male lamb without any broken bones.

2a - Well, they sprinkled the blood of that lamb on their door post by using a hissop branch.

2b - But in order for the angel of death (that would kill their first born son) to passover them and not do the wicked deed, they had to eat the flesh of that lamb also...

Therefore, after that event in Egypt the Jews had always been celebrating that passover. They celebrated it every year by having the Seder meal.

The Seder meal consisted of four parts that always had a cup of wine involved. They would bless the wine and pass it around (just like Jesus did - since this is what he was doing (just before he left to go to the garden, before he was captured).

At the forth cup, the Seder meal was over. If you follow Christ (in the gospel) just before his last supper you will see that he refused to drink the wine. He later recieved the wine on the cross by a hissop branch.

1a - Jesus was the sacrifitual lamb.

1b - Jesus was male and a first born Son. They never broke his bones with the hammer but they did break the bones of the two that were also crucified beside him(they broke their leg bones).

2a - The sour wine was given to Christ (in a sponge) on the end of a hissop branch). This was the forth/ final cup of the Seder meal.

2b - In order to fullfil the passover/ Seder meal, eat the flesh of the lamb (he gave it to his disciples in the last supper).

I think you can guess what comes next...

[Connie]

Oh, okay. I didn't realize the Passover meal was actually called the Seder meal. I've always just referred to it as the Passover meal. It is some really beautiful symbolism.

I don't understand precisely how transubstantiation comes into it. I think i maybe sorta kinda get it but if you could explain a little more i'd appreciate it.

[Wingnut]

I use to believe that. I use to be Catholic.

It is a sin to believe that.

It could be true.

It is true.

I think there needs to be a fifth option: "I don't believe it's true."

Just because I don't believe it's true doesn't mean that I think it's a sin to believe that it is true.

[Elgama]

I think there needs to be a fifth option: "I don't believe it's true."

Just because I don't believe it's true doesn't mean that I think it's a sin to believe that it is true.

it would only be a sin if you were LDS, and if you wouldn't be LDS if you believed it?

[Dominic_Korozya]

Oh, okay. I didn't realize the Passover meal was actually called the Seder meal. I've always just referred to it as the Passover meal. It is some really beautiful symbolism.

I don't understand precisely how transubstantiation comes into it. I think i maybe sorta kinda get it but if you could explain a little more i'd appreciate it.

I could explain so much more to you, but if I did I'd be here forever and a day! Aww... you are so persuasive...!

Jesus put an end to all animal sacrifices, but he didn't do away with them completely, he just replaced them with himself.

Would you like me to show you some teachings from the Catechism of the Catholic Church on the subject of the Eucharist?

IN BRIEF

1406 Jesus said: "I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; . . . he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and . . . abides in me, and I in him" (Jn 6:51, 54, 56).

1407 The Eucharist is the heart and the summit of the Church's life, for in it Christ associates his Church and all her members with his sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving offered once for all on the cross to his Father; by this sacrifice he pours out the graces of salvation on his Body which is the Church.

1408 The Eucharistic celebration always includes: the proclamation of the Word of God; thanksgiving to God the Father for all his benefits, above all the gift of his Son; the consecration of bread and wine; and participation in the liturgical banquet by receiving the Lord's body and blood. These elements constitute one single act of worship.

1409 The Eucharist is the memorial of Christ's Passover, that is, of the work of salvation accomplished by the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, a work made present by the liturgical action.

1410 It is Christ himself, the eternal high priest of the New Covenant who, acting through the ministry of the priests, offers the Eucharistic sacrifice. And it is the same Christ, really present under the species of bread and wine, who is the offering of the Eucharistic sacrifice.

1411 Only validly ordained priests can preside at the Eucharist and consecrate the bread and the wine so that they become the Body and Blood of the Lord.

1412 The essential signs of the Eucharistic sacrament are wheat bread and grape wine, on which the blessing of the Holy Spirit is invoked and the priest pronounces the words of consecration spoken by Jesus during the Last Supper: "This is my body which will be given up for you. . . . This is the cup of my blood. . . ."

1413 By the consecration the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is brought about. Under the consecrated species of bread and wine Christ himself, living and glorious, is present in a true, real, and substantial manner: his Body and his Blood, with his soul and his divinity (cf. Council of Trent: DS 1640; 1651).

1414 As sacrifice, the Eucharist is also offered in reparation for the sins of the living and the dead and to obtain spiritual or temporal benefits from God.

1415 Anyone who desires to receive Christ in Eucharistic communion must be in the state of grace. Anyone aware of having sinned mortally must not receive communion without having received absolution in the sacrament of penance.

1416 Communion with the Body and Blood of Christ increases the communicant's union with the Lord, forgives his venial sins, and preserves him from grave sins. Since receiving this sacrament strengthens the bonds of charity between the communicant and Christ, it also reinforces the unity of the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ.

1417 The Church warmly recommends that the faithful receive Holy Communion when they participate in the celebration of the Eucharist; she obliges them to do so at least once a year.

1418 Because Christ himself is present in the sacrament of the altar, he is to be honored with the worship of adoration. "To visit the Blessed Sacrament is . . . a proof of gratitude, an expression of love, and a duty of adoration toward Christ our Lord" (Paul VI, MF 66).

1419 Having passed from this world to the Father, Christ gives us in the Eucharist the pledge of glory with him. Participation in the Holy Sacrifice identifies us with his Heart, sustains our strength along the pilgrimage of this life, makes us long for eternal life, and unites us even now to the Church in heaven, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and all the saints.

[Dominic_Korozya]

I think there needs to be a fifth option: "I don't believe it's true."

Just because I don't believe it's true doesn't mean that I think it's a sin to believe that it is true.

I cannot edit the poll now, but I knew you wouldn't believe in it so I didn't see the point in having that option.

[Dominic_Korozya]

it would only be a sin if you were LDS, and if you wouldn't be LDS if you believed it?

Of couse it is sin, it is idollatry.

[Elgama]

Of couse it is sin, it is idollatry.

if you are living under a doctrine that teaches it because that is your best understanding of God the no thats not a sin. As a Latter Day Saint I do not believe it to be correct

Edited April 1, 2010 by Elgama

[Dominic_Korozya]

if you are living under a doctrine that teaches it because that is your best understanding of God the no thats not a sin. As a Latter Day Saint I do not believe it to be correct

But if you are worshipping something that you believe to be God, then surely that is idollatry? Catholics actually do not just consume the Eucharist, we also worship it. The host is placed in a monstrance where it is on full display for the people of the parish, we actually get down on our knees and worship the object. Is that not idollatry?

[Elgama]

But if you are worshipping something that you believe to be God, then surely that is idollatry? Catholics actually do not just consume the Eucharist, we also worship it. The host is placed in a monstrance where it is on full display for the people of the parish, we actually get down on our knees and worship the object. Is that not idollatry?

Why do you worship it? Are you at that time loving God with all your heart to the best of your ability?

[Dominic_Korozya]

Why do you worship it?

Because it is the flesh of Jesus Christ.

(Note how there was no preaching attached to that response).

Are you at that time loving God with all your heart to the best of your ability?

Yes, it would be sin not to.

[Elgama]

Because it is the flesh of Jesus Christ.

(Note how there was no preaching attached to that response).

Yes, it would be sin not to.

I guess I don't see how loving God with all your heart can be a sin, for me idolatry is when you replace God with something else. I don't think it matters what you call God as long as you are as true to God as you can be.

If you are doing this Matthew 2:

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt alove the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

If you are not a Latter Day Saint you are doing the best you can if you are obeying the main commandments within the confines of your religion. Personally I think as long as those incorporate your worship, its doesn't matter what you call God.

[Dominic_Korozya]

I guess I don't see how loving God with all your heart can be a sin, for me idolatry is when you replace God with something else. I don't think it matters what you call God as long as you are as true to God as you can be.

If you are doing this Matthew 2:

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt alove the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

If you are not a Latter Day Saint you are doing the best you can if you are obeying the main commandments within the confines of your religion. Personally I think as long as those incorporate your worship, its doesn't matter what you call God.

You really believe this? You are truly a good person, but... the act of this worship, according to LDS is an error that has developed from misinterpritating the scriptures. Doesn't this concern you at all?