Why some won't & shouldn't get into heaven

[prisonchaplain]

This is a thought I've been meditating on for several weeks. It fits into both our theologies, so perhaps you should just think of the Celestial Kingdom here...or any heavenly kingdom that's better than another. The Bible tells us that sin cannot enter into God's kingdom. So, I picture that kingdom as one of my virgin daughters. The sinner is one who would violate her, given the chance. Likewise, the sinner would turn the heavenly into a hell, or a lower kingdom. It's a grand theocratic version of why none of us is pleased when we see grafiti or apparent drug trade in our neighborhoods.

It may have been Traveler who said that everyone will go where they want to be. Perhaps the converse of that is if one who does not belong in a Kingdom were allowed there, s/he would turn it into the kingdom that befits...

[marts1]

It may have been Traveler who said that everyone will go where they want to be.

I've heard this several times before and have a hard time with the very few that will actually end up in the final state of outer darkness where there is no glory whatsoever, would really want to be there as opposed to anywhere else. Perhaps its something I cannot comprehend unless I experience it.

[Traveler]

I've heard this several times before and have a hard time with the very few that will actually end up in the final state of outer darkness where there is no glory whatsoever, would really want to be there as opposed to anywhere else. Perhaps its something I cannot comprehend unless I experience it.

Those that reside in “outer darkness” are individuals that hate light and love darkness. Therefore, outer darkness is a place prepared specifically for the individuals that will reside there – by their choice. It is a very solid principle of LDS doctrine that through the agency we are given the power to choose. And a choice is an expression of individual desire. It is the law they choose to be governed by according to their agency alone.

The Traveler

[marts1]

Those that reside in “outer darkness” are individuals that hate light and love darkness. Therefore, outer darkness is a place prepared specifically for the individuals that will reside there – by their choice. It is a very solid principle of LDS doctrine that through the agency we are given the power to choose. And a choice is an expression of individual desire. It is the law they choose to be governed by according to their agency alone.

I would like to have a face to face talk with you on this one Traveler. I'm not a typer in any sense of the word. :)

[Traveler]

This is a thought I've been meditating on for several weeks. It fits into both our theologies, so perhaps you should just think of the Celestial Kingdom here...or any heavenly kingdom that's better than another. The Bible tells us that sin cannot enter into God's kingdom. So, I picture that kingdom as one of my virgin daughters. The sinner is one who would violate her, given the chance. Likewise, the sinner would turn the heavenly into a hell, or a lower kingdom. It's a grand theocratic version of why none of us is pleased when we see grafiti or apparent drug trade in our neighborhoods.

It may have been Traveler who said that everyone will go where they want to be. Perhaps the converse of that is if one who does not belong in a Kingdom were allowed there, s/he would turn it into the kingdom that befits...

PC. I am a believer in seeking understanding, searching for and finding what one is looking for. As we speak of G-d and his great love, compassion and kindness – I personally have a very difficult time believing that anyone at any time that honestly pleads unto G-d for deliverance – honestly desiring to live and be a part of something else would find such pleas falling on “deaf” ears.

Indeed if a person makes a “decision” based on missing or false information should they be held to account for “foolish” choices? Do not we all fall short of the glory of G-d and make foolish choices? In the end there are some that choose sin and learn to love and enjoy it – while others in finding or understanding more would change our past poor decisions. “If I had only known – I would not have chosen such a path,” is the basis of the lament of the repentant. Have we all not made bad choices in part because we did not realize the real costs or loses? And when we come to realize sought to make right our wrong choice? Why should one person be allowed to “repent” of poor uninformed choices and not others? What compassion or mercy is there in that?

But I also believe there is something else. Those that choose to live with G-d according to his highest laws do so in power and glory having inherited all that G-d has. I believe that should some “lesser” being attempt to reside in such glorious habitat and society that they would be in danger in being “overcome” or “dominated” by the glory and majesty of such residents – themselves being creatures of profound comparative shame. I believe it is out of the love and compassion of G-d that he has prepared other places that those of lesser law and spiritual stature and desire could live without such a burden of their constant, eternal and decadent shame.

Thus I believe that it is not so much to protect the glorious society of heaven where none can tolerate any degree of evil that those that would wish to hide from such glory to grovel in some sin, they so dearly love, are allowed another place where they can “hide” from G-d and his saints in some semblance of miserable and leaser peace.

The Traveler

[rameumptom]

PC, I agree with your premise. D&C 88 states that those who will not obey the laws of a kingdom cannot endure its glory.

For those in a lesser kingdom, it actually IS what they would choose for themselves, because that is the glory and obedience level they would choose for themselves. Alma 12 tells us that the wicked would rather have rocks fall upon them than to stand in the presence of God. Mormon 9:4 teaches that the wicked would be more miserable in the presence of a just God than with the wicked souls in hell.

That said, it is based upon what a person would do/believe if they knew the fullness of the gospel. God is very loving and merciful and gives to each of his children the highest reward that child is willing/able to receive. A sinner cannot enter into heaven - any of the heavens in LDS teaching. For this reason, ALL must repent either here or in the Spirit World, or receive no kingdom of glory. Only those who choose to be complete enemies of Christ will refuse to repent. For the very wicked, while they will have repented and cleansed by Christ, their personal spirituality can be lacking - or their desire to be highly spiritual can be lacking, and so a Celestial glory may not be what they desire. It would literally be painful for them to dwell in God's presence, and so they would gladly accept a lesser kingdom that is more to their own personal liking, more comfortable.

[NeuroTypical]

We humans have a breathtaking ability to do horrible things to each other. Christ's atonement covers any and all sinners, all who wish to be free of their sins.

One thing that is also commanded is that we forgive each other. I think this is more emphasized in the BoM than in the Bible - we're actually told that failure to forgive is a greater sin that whatever was done to us.

It strikes me that there are lots of people who have been on the receiving end of harm, who just don't forgive, for whatever reason. If these folks can't find it in them to forgive, then by definition, they won't need to be burdened with proximity to the repentant person who made it to heaven via the cleansing blood of Christ.

It's a startling concept.

LM

[Elgama]

I think we are going to be surprised by who goes where only God and possibly ourselves truly know our hearts and what motivates what causes us to behave the way we do. I am reminded of a time in my life when I was the furthest from the gospel of Jesus Christ I have ever been in my life, but had several trials in my life contributing to that, when I asked for a priesthood blessing it said that Heavenly Father was incredibly proud of me I was doing the very best I could with what He had given me to deal with at the time, He could ask no more. Yet there are times when I am more righteous in terms of my actions on the surface but I may not be doing my absolute best whereby I can do no more than I am doing.

I have taken a path right now that normally as a Latter Day Saint I would say is wrong, but I know it is right now the right one for us and the very best we can do in the situation we have right now, yet it renders me unworthy of a Temple Recommend - I just trust that Heavenly Father will come through with his promise it will not impact on my family's eternity.

There is a reason I am not in charge of judgement I'd get it all wrong lol

[Brandon-Christensen]

yes, the reason why we would be put in the kingdoms is because God loves us. I f we found our selves in a kingdom higher than what we deserve, we would feel an overwhelming sense of guilt. God does not want us to feel guilty

[prisonchaplain]

PC. I am a believer in seeking understanding, searching for and finding what one is looking for. As we speak of G-d and his great love, compassion and kindness – I personally have a very difficult time believing that anyone at any time that honestly pleads unto G-d for deliverance – honestly desiring to live and be a part of something else would find such pleas falling on “deaf” ears.

Indeed if a person makes a “decision” based on missing or false information should they be held to account for “foolish” choices? Do not we all fall short of the glory of G-d and make foolish choices? In the end there are some that choose sin and learn to love and enjoy it – while others in finding or understanding more would change our past poor decisions. “If I had only known – I would not have chosen such a path,” is the basis of the lament of the repentant. Have we all not made bad choices in part because we did not realize the real costs or loses? And when we come to realize sought to make right our wrong choice? Why should one person be allowed to “repent” of poor uninformed choices and not others? What compassion or mercy is there in that?

In our zeal to encourage evangelism, missions and the type of holiness that promotes God's Kingdom, we sometimes appear to say that those who die without a clear-cut evangelical grasp on God, Jesus and salvation will definitely be damned to hell. "Win the lost--at any cost!" On the one hand, I frankly do not want to back track or diminish the sense of urgency that all Christians should have for lost souls. On the other, I declare my faith that God is fair. While the Old Testament does call for punishments against those who sin in ignorance, those sanctions were less severe than for intentional wrong-doing. So, we evangelize, hoping to usher folk into God's kingdom. On the other hand, I do believe that no one damned to hell, was so purely out of ignorance. God read rebellion in those hearts. He knew that should that damned soul enter heaven it would bring misery to everyone.

But I also believe there is something else. Those that choose to live with G-d according to his highest laws do so in power and glory having inherited all that G-d has. I believe that should some “lesser” being attempt to reside in such glorious habitat and society that they would be in danger in being “overcome” or “dominated” by the glory and majesty of such residents – themselves being creatures of profound comparative shame. I believe it is out of the love and compassion of G-d that he has prepared other places that those of lesser law and spiritual stature and desire could live without such a burden of their constant, eternal and decadent shame.

I suppose a feeble example would be the poor kid who gets a scholarship to a wealthy private school, but never fits in with the other students?

Thus I believe that it is not so much to protect the glorious society of heaven where none can tolerate any degree of evil that those that would wish to hide from such glory to grovel in some sin, they so dearly love, are allowed another place where they can “hide” from G-d and his saints in some semblance of miserable and leaser peace.

The Traveler

This thought applies better to the three kingdoms than to the sharp chasm between heaven and hell envisioned by most Protestants and Catholics.

[GADBabaganoosh]

Those who choose wickedness in this life have chosen for themselves their hell. Those who choose to repent through Jesus Christ and are baptised, recieve the promises of God, and the promise of eternal life if they endure through this life. Everyone will have, at one point or another, the option to repent and be batpised. God is a merciful God.

[marts1]

I find it hard to believe that people recieving a lower degree of glory would rather be where they are then having a continuation of families or just a higher degree of glory.

[GADBabaganoosh]

The point is, they realize it at some point. Whether in this life or the next. Those who attain a lower kingdom of glory will know it, with a perfect knowledge at some point. They will have had their oppurtunity to accept the gospel, and having accept it or reject it, they will know and have to accept the kingdom of glory they had attained. We will all know, with a perfect knowledge, what we did is right and what we did is wrong and come to accept it. (Theres a Book of Mormon scripture about this... i wish i could remember the reference.) That time is not now. If most people knew, now, would they choose it? Probably not.

[Jenamarie]

I find it hard to believe that people recieving a lower degree of glory would rather be where they are then having a continuation of families or just a higher degree of glory.

Really? Just look at people here on Earth and you'll see people who are quiet content with living life to the minimum (so long as it's a comfortable minimum) and have no ambition to better themselves or their situation. People to whom hard work (which I'm sure Exaltation and all it entails will be) is something to be avoided.

I believe part of our "Test" here is proving that we're up to the challenge. Eternal families are GREAT! Exaltation is GREAT! But I'm certain it isn't a pleasure cruise. Just look at what Heavenly Father has had to deal with as an Exalted Being (losing a third part of his children, sacrificing His son, etc.) Of course we'll have Eternal Perspective, and self mastery and a Fullness of Joy, but I'm also certain that we aren't going to be floating around, lounging on clouds of glory eating Philidelphia cream cheese.

[marts1]

I find it hard to believe that people recieving a lower degree of glory would rather be where they are then having a continuation of families or just a higher degree of glory.

I've heard this concept taught many times in church and I also agree with it.

[Moksha]

PC, Wouldn't eternal Kingdoms be built of sturdier stuff than we could possibly damage with abstract ideas like sin? The Kingdoms of Heaven preceded that of our universe. As such, the blemishes of the occupants would fail to blemish the creation, since the occupants blemishes are only inherent in themselves and even then they are cleansable. This is reinforced through the idea of forgiveness - whether purchased by Grace or applied for by repentance.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Moksha

[prisonchaplain]

Moksha, I'm rather thinking that exaltation may be an evolutionary step away from all sin and such hinderance. The clutter and garbage in our life are not really what makes life interesting. They (sin) really is simply bad and evil. So no, it wouldn't make heaven sturdier--it would infect it, and make it more hell-like.

To be simplistic--I reject the whole yin/yang or good/evil as balance perspective. IMHO, we are to battle evil and vanquish it. Heaven will be the culimination of that.

[dorave]

Free Agency pretty much sums up Glenn Beck's take on 'social justice' and 'economical justice' to a tee.

Edited April 6, 2010 by dorave

[dorave]

Those that reside in “outer darkness” are individuals that hate light and love darkness. Therefore, outer darkness is a place prepared specifically for the individuals that will reside there – by their choice. It is a very solid principle of LDS doctrine that through the agency we are given the power to choose. And a choice is an expression of individual desire. It is the law they choose to be governed by according to their agency alone.

The Traveler

This will be the case even physically (during that time)

Light up a candle in the middle of a dark room and darkness leaves.

[Guest mysticmorini]

I find it hard to believe that people recieving a lower degree of glory would rather be where they are then having a continuation of families or just a higher degree of glory.

it may not be out of the question for these people with eternal progression. think of it like being held back a grade in school.

[Moksha]

IMHO, we are to battle evil and vanquish it. Heaven will be the culimination of that.

So there is an Armageddon yet to be played out?

[prisonchaplain]

So there is an Armageddon yet to be played out?

Of course! Despite the pontifications of some...the 2008 elections were not a fulfillment of that particular prophecy.

[rameumptom]

I find it hard to believe that people recieving a lower degree of glory would rather be where they are then having a continuation of families or just a higher degree of glory.

I actually have known several members of the LDS Church who have told me they are not interested in being a god or have eternal family. They just want to dwell in God's presence.

And as Mormon 9:3-5 notes:

Then will ye longer deny the Christ, or can ye behold the Lamb of God? Do ye suppose that ye shall dwell with him under a consciousness of your guilt? Do ye suppose that ye could be happy to dwell with that holy Being, when your souls are racked with a consciousness of guilt that ye have ever abused his laws? 4 Behold, I say unto you that ye would be more miserable to dwell with a holy and just God, under a consciousness of your filthiness before him, than ye would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.

5 For behold, when ye shall be brought to see your nakedness before God, and also the glory of God, and the holiness of Jesus Christ, it will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon you.

Alma 12:13-14:

13 Then if our hearts have been hardened, yea, if we have hardened our hearts against the word, insomuch that it has not been found in us, then will our state be awful, for then we shall be condemned. 14 For our words will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence.

They would definitely prefer another level of heaven/kingdom.

[rameumptom]

Of course! Despite the pontifications of some...the 2008 elections were not a fulfillment of that particular prophecy.

No, but some think it is the beginning of the 3-1/2 years of tribulation leading to Armageddon....

[Guest mormonmusic]

I agree that people won't be comfortable in Heaven if they haven't learned to obey the principles of righteousness, and haven't come through their eternal life experiences with the kind of character God has.

I had an experience in an earthly social circle that I think parallels, in its own way.

It was like this -- I went to a meeting where I met a bunch of people involved in Merger's and Acquisitions at a well known major bank. This was 20 years ago when I was starting my career to see if I wanted to interview with them. I knew within about 10 minutes that there was NO WAY I would fit in with that group of people. Their personalities, outlook on life, etcetera made me feel very uncomfortable. Not that they were bad in any way, but so different from myself -- I struggled to even make conversation. When I did, the conversation was usually pretty short and uninteresting, and sometimes uncomfortable.

I think it would be like this in The Ultimate Heavenly Kingdom if you hadn't paid your dues in developing your character to be worthy of that kingdom. You wouldn't have common ground with people, you'd feel uncomfortable with their outlook on life, etcetera, and you'd end up feeling like an outsider, as I did.

I also believe life in the Ultimate Heavenly Kingdom is full of work and constant selfless service to everyone. I often wonder if the same challenges I felt as a Priesthood Leader exist there. The challenge of being accountable for people's results when you had nothing but longsuffering and persuasion on your side. So, if you haven't learned to be peaceful at heart, in spite of all the frustrations as people exercise their agency in the wrong direction, you'd probably be VERY uncomfortable as an eternally progressing being the Ultimate Heavenly Kingdom. So, is it really for everyone?