If ye obey the commandments you'll prosper in the land


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Guest mormonmusic

I was watching a self-proclaimed preacher who runs a site called "tomorrow's world" who indicated that the economic crisis, his belief that America has fallen as a super power in the world, that the national debt, is a result of our nation not obeying the commandments of God. He also quotes our inability to conquer the terrorists and the looming threat of bio and nuclear terror as a result of disobedience to the commandments.

So, do you think this is so -- is the poor economy, our perceived fallen state in the world stage etcetera, and the desire of other countries to destroy our way of life represents God punishing America for disobedience to His commandments?

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I'm not a fan of the God will punish us mindset. Like - do not sin because God will punish us!

I see it as - God knows what qualities, character, values, actions lead to happiness and which ones don't - so he gives us laws to follow to lead us to happiness. So, if we don't follow the commandments, then it will lead us to despair. That's not really God punishing us. That's an I-told-you-so moment.

Any of what is ailing our society today is a direct result of our choices. So, of course, if, as a country, we were not following the path to happiness, then yes, as a country, we are going to end up in despair.

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I think these scriptures pretty much sum it up.

(The Jaredites prepare for their journey to a promised land—It is a choice land whereon men must serve Christ or be swept off.)

Ether 2:8-12

8 And he had sworn in his wrath unto the brother of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them.

9 And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.

10 For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God. And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.

11 And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.

12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.

2 Nephi 1:20, 31

20 And he hath said that: Inasmuch as ye shall keep my commandments ye shall prosper in the land; but inasmuch as ye will not keep my commandments ye shall be cut off from my presence.

31 Wherefore, because thou hast been faithful thy seed shall be blessed with his seed, that they dwell in prosperity long upon the face of this land; and nothing, save it shall be iniquity among them, shall harm or disturb their prosperity upon the face of this land forever.

Edited by Rosabella
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Not sure. I think its possible to obey the commandments and yet not prosper in the land for so many other external factors. We all have challenges and some have specific ones that they will endure the rest of their lives so I dont think is so black and white.

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Not sure. I think its possible to obey the commandments and yet not prosper in the land for so many other external factors. We all have challenges and some have specific ones that they will endure the rest of their lives so I dont think is so black and white.

There is a reason why all do not propser as we think. The word prosper definition is not what people think it is. I found a good article on LDS.org regarding this topic.

LDS.org LINK

Perhaps the problem lies in our tendency to think of prosperity only as it is represented by material wealth or lack of serious problems. The word prosperity itself comes from the Latin pro + spes, which means “hope.” Though the word soon came to mean “succeed” and is often used in the sense of material success, it does not necessarily mean an abundance of temporal possessions—or even a relatively comfortable, problem-free life.

If we remember the scriptures’ admonition that “men are, that they might have joy” (2 Ne. 2:25), we can see that, for those who live the gospel, prosperity can mean joy, peace, harmony, unity, love, and sufficient faith and means to meet our needs without fear. Such prosperity comes because one possesses faith and peace of mind.

We tend to think of prosperity to be merely as wealth and abundance of temporal blessings. True prosperity is far more than that. It is spiritual prosperity which sometimes comes with temporal abundance but not always. Nevertheless those who are faithful will be prosperous in the sense that they will have a constant hope and confidence that God will provide for them and supply their basic needs. The Church has defined "basic needs" as food and water, clothing and shelter. Anything beyond this is a blessing above our basic needs. We are promised that if this country worships Christ: "it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land". When we do not worship God on this land we have the promise of being swept off.

The Book of Mormon is all about the Pride Cycle that occurs in civilizations on this land. It shows us examples of multiple civilizations not heeding this warning. The great circle of the pride cycle is Humility and Repentance then Righteousness and Prosperity then Pride and Wickedness then Destruction and Suffering then Humility and Repentance etc... if we do not repent the civilization ends.

The Book of Mormon was given to us today for it was written for our time and is to be likened to ourselves. When you liken the Book of Mormon to what has happened with our country you can see we are in the midst of the Pride and Wickedness stage for we used to put God first in this country but He has been abandoned and man walks in his own way which is Pride. This means the next step that will occur and has occurred at this stage to all other civilizations here on this land will be Destruction and Suffering. This is to call us to repentance and to come back to God. Prosperity sadly causes pride in many, causing them to feel they do not need God or to believe all their blessings have come from themselves (arm of flesh). This thinking causes wickedness to grow rampantly.

Elder Gordon B. Hinckley, in which he spoke of the Book of Mormon:

“No other written testament so clearly illustrates the fact that when men and nations walk in the fear of God and in obedience to his commandments, they prosper and grow, but when they disregard him and his word, there comes a decay that, unless arrested by righteousness, leads to impotence and death” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1979, 10; or Ensign, Nov. 1979, 8).

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I think Rosabella hit the nail on the head with her scripture quotes.

IMO, worshipping Christ is more than just our religion- it's the desire to truly seek true eternal principles and live them. One of the crucial things that set America apart from other countries was the Founder's unique sense of duty to 'Nature's God' and the Constitution. Those two things lead to the freedoms we have enjoyed for so long. I won't go into what I think happened, but what we've seen- something that's been gaining speed since the Civil War- is a slow abandonment of widespread devotion to those ideals in the political sphere.

Religion-wise, however, the bulk of Americans are pulling away from the essentials of Christ's doctrine. Yesterday in an Institute class, the teacher read a statistic that less than 30% of Americans believe in a physical ressurection of the body- yet at least 50% believe in some sort of ressurection. We're fast ripening in iniquity as a country, IMO.

Our economic woes and the fact we've "fallen" as a world superpower are results of breaking the commandments, I think, but I don't think other countries' desires to destroy America are. There will always be prideful men who hate those with liberty and the ideals America stands for- the fact that they're not losing on the battlefield is a result of our disobedience.

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I was watching a self-proclaimed preacher who runs a site called "tomorrow's world" who indicated that the economic crisis, his belief that America has fallen as a super power in the world, that the national debt, is a result of our nation not obeying the commandments of God. He also quotes our inability to conquer the terrorists and the looming threat of bio and nuclear terror as a result of disobedience to the commandments.

So, do you think this is so -- is the poor economy, our perceived fallen state in the world stage etcetera, and the desire of other countries to destroy our way of life represents God punishing America for disobedience to His commandments?

God is not "punishing" us for not obeying the commandments, rather He is allowing us to reap what we sew. Its like gravity... thou shalt not walk off the edge of a cliff. When we ignore this law and walk off the cliff, God doesnt punish us by throwing us against the rocks below. But God has even gone one step further. Not only does he tell us not to walk off the cliff, he has put up warning signs well in advance. Given us a path to stay on with a Rod of Iron to hold onto. And even posted guards (prophets) along the way to help us know where the path is leading and how best to stay on it. God does not punish and in the same sense I guess you could argue that he doesnt reward. He simply gives us what we chose to recieve.

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God is not "punishing" us for not obeying the commandments, rather He is allowing us to reap what we sew. Its like gravity... thou shalt not walk off the edge of a cliff. When we ignore this law and walk off the cliff, God doesnt punish us by throwing us against the rocks below. But God has even gone one step further. Not only does he tell us not to walk off the cliff, he has put up warning signs well in advance. Given us a path to stay on with a Rod of Iron to hold onto. And even posted guards (prophets) along the way to help us know where the path is leading and how best to stay on it. God does not punish and in the same sense I guess you could argue that he doesnt reward. He simply gives us what we chose to recieve.

I think this is a good way of looking at it sometimes (all sins do have natural consequences), as long as we remember that sometimes the Lord actually does punish us with curses. We see this reinforced merely by searching for the word 'curse' in the Book of Mormon and studying context.

God was the one who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.

So how much of our troubles are natural consequences of our actions, and how much are the result of curses? I don't know, but I believe there's a large amount of both categories.

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I was watching a self-proclaimed preacher who runs a site called "tomorrow's world" who indicated that the economic crisis, his belief that America has fallen as a super power in the world, that the national debt, is a result of our nation not obeying the commandments of God. He also quotes our inability to conquer the terrorists and the looming threat of bio and nuclear terror as a result of disobedience to the commandments.

So, do you think this is so -- is the poor economy, our perceived fallen state in the world stage etcetera, and the desire of other countries to destroy our way of life represents God punishing America for disobedience to His commandments?

about the same as if you decide to touch flame that the flame punishes you by burning youi... or if you decid to ignore the warnings to stay back from a steep cliff, and then are "punished" by falling for failing to do so..
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Noting Joseph Smith financial circumstances, he was closer to GOD than any person that I am aware of and he was not prosperous as to his economic conditions.

Which brings us to another fork in the road. Does "prosper" = "Financial Security"

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Which brings us to another fork in the road. Does "prosper" = "Financial Security"

I think it's more along the lines of having an excess or abundance than what you would normally have.... for LDS this would be things that matter in helping one's relation to God.

Financial security would certainly be part of that.

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I feel the Lord's hand is in all things. We experience his blessings or His wrath as the scripture tell us again and again and give evidence of this. Seas are parted, plagues are sent, civilizations protected others destroyed. We may not always recognize blessings from the Lord or recognizes His wrath when it comes. Man always tends to lean on the arm of flesh and his own understandings leaving God's will and God's great influence out of their view of this temporal world.

We live in a time when the Lord's hand is being mocked and man raised to the place of gods. As we are told in this scripture this is a dangerous path.

D&C 59:21

21 And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things, and obey not his commandments.

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I think that

...it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished;

(Book of Mormon | Mormon 4:5)

changed-

I think you bring up a good point. I think that the wicked are punished by the wicked in many cases, such as at Ammonihah. However, note the context of Mormon 4:5- it is describing the final acts of the apostate Nephites, and how the LORD will deal with them. I don't think it is a universal declaration of how the wicked are always punished. I think this largely in part because it was the LORD who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and it will be the LORD whose glory destroys the earth at HIS coming, burning the wicked "as stubble".

Edited by Matthew0059
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Matthew0059

I was just reading this article and it appears to fit with along what you are saying.

LDS.ORG

Chapter 44: Preparing for the Second Coming of Christ,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, 389

The Latter-day Saints … believe in the statements of the Holy Scriptures, that calamities will befall the nations as signs of the coming of Christ to judgment. They believe that God rules in the fire, the earthquake, the tidal wave, the volcanic eruption, and the storm. Him they recognize as the Master and Ruler of nature and her laws, and freely acknowledge his hand in all things. We believe that his judgments are poured out to bring mankind to a sense of his power and his purposes, that they may repent of their sins and prepare themselves for the second coming of Christ to reign in righteousness upon the earth.

We firmly believe that Zion—which is the pure in heart—shall escape, if she observes to do all things whatsoever God has commanded; but, in the opposite event, even Zion shall be visited “with sore affliction, with pestilence, with plague, with sword, with vengeance, and with devouring fire” (Doctrine and Covenants 97:26). All this that her people may be taught to walk in the light of truth and in the way of the God of their salvation.

We believe that these severe, natural calamities are visited upon men by the Lord for the good of his children, to quicken their devotion to others, and to bring out their better natures, that they may love and serve him. We believe, further, that they are the heralds and tokens of his final judgment, and the schoolmasters to teach the people to prepare themselves by righteous living for the coming of the Savior to reign upon the earth, when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ.

If these lessons are impressed upon us and upon the people of our country, the anguish, and the loss of life and toil, sad, great and horrifying as they were, will not have been endured in vain.

I … testify, that unless the Latter-day Saints will live their religion, keep their covenants with God and their brethren, honor the priesthood which they bear, and try faithfully to bring themselves into subjection to the laws of God, they will be the first to fall beneath the judgments of the Almighty, for his judgments will begin at his own house.

Therefore, those who have made a covenant with the Lord by baptism, and have broken that covenant, who profess to be saints and are not, but are sinners, and covenant-breakers, and partakers of the sins of Babylon, most assuredly will “receive of her plagues,” for it is written that the righteous will barely escape [see Revelation 18:4; D&C 63:34]. This is my testimony in relation to these matters. We rely upon the word of the Lord in these things, and not upon the word of man, for not only have angels, but God Almighty has spoken from the heavens in this our own age of the world, and we know his word is true.

The warnings are not solely for our nation but also our Church members.

I feel we are dealing with two forms of God's wrath.

First the blessing and curse that this land holds for those that choose to follow Christ or choose reject Him.

Second the judgments prior to the second coming of Christ.

Either way if is due to the wrath of God for our iniquities. These things have been foretold and will happen regardless of our personal belief in them or not. We should not be surprised to see what has been prophesied to occur actually occurring or disregard it when we have been warned about it and are continuing to being warned. We are told we are in the last days during perilous times. We are just seeing the words of God through His Prophets being fulfilled.

Edited by Rosabella
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Guest mormonmusic

I think prospering refers to the absence of war, of slavery to debt or other nations, as well as freedom from destruction of the nation as a people.

I also agree that the present economic situation is a result of people not obeying basic laws of financial prosperity. Living within your means (people lined up to go further into debt than they could afford), being honest (banks sold bad loans, and then packaged them up and sold them) and then people walked away from their homes when it became onerous to pay them back.

All things that lead to financial ruin....

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So, do you think this is so -- is the poor economy, our perceived fallen state in the world stage etcetera, and the desire of other countries to destroy our way of life represents God punishing America for disobedience to His commandments?

No. The realm of God is not that of politics or economics. Additionally floods, hurricanes and earthquakes are occurrences due to the forces of nature and have natural explanations. Ours is a loving God and the heavens are his kingdoms.

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I don't think "prosper in the land" was intended to mean "to be made wealthy."

Look up "prosper in the land" in the web edition of the scriptures on the Church web site and read through the verses.

It seems to be saying that life will be protected and seed will be numerous. Look at my favorite one in Alma:

Alma 48:

14 Now the Nephites were taught to defend themselves against their enemies, even to the shedding of blood if it were necessary; yea, and they were also taught never to give an offense, yea, and never to raise the sword except it were against an enemy, except it were to preserve their lives.

15 And this was their faith, that by so doing God would prosper them in the land, or in other words, if they were faithful in keeping the commandments of God that he would prosper them in the land; yea, warn them to flee, or to prepare for war, according to their danger;

16 And also, that God would make it known unto them whither they should go to defend themselves against their enemies, and by so doing, the Lord would deliver them; and this was the faith of Moroni, and his heart did glory in it; not in the shedding of blood but in doing good, in preserving his people, yea, in keeping the commandments of God, yea, and resisting iniquity.

Having said that, all the things you mention are things that would happen in order for our lives and safety to be at risk.

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Guest mormonmusic

No. The realm of God is not that of politics or economics. Additionally floods, hurricanes and earthquakes are occurrences due to the forces of nature and have natural explanations. Ours is a loving God and the heavens are his kingdoms.

Not sure if I'm with you on this one -- throughout the Book of Mormon, the Lord used the Lamanites as a scourge on the Nephites when they became unrighteous. Also, in fourth Nephi, it was pretty clear that the Lord sent famine and drought to humble the generation at that time from their arrogant and unrighteous behavior -- and only sent rain after the prophet Nephi plead on their behalf. In fact, I think Nephi even asked for the famine originally to help unfreeze his people's attitudes.

So, I definitely believe the Lord uses economics, politics and the environment to humble his people, or even just start over (think about Noah, for example -- the ultimate in using natural forces to cleanse the earth of unrighteousness).

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No. If financial failure and war is punishment for sin then the "greatest generation" must have really been bad to have the great depression with 25% unemployment followed by 400,000 deaths in ww2.

I would like to point out that yes what you call the "greatest generation" were walking away from God. They were becoming puffed up in the arm of flesh. They were turning away from God and trusting in man and man's mighty strength. It was the industrial age, the age of man's brilliance and man's worship of himself. Which was called by our Church Leaders a wicked and adulterous generation. Moreover vast numbers of people were turning away from the true God becoming atheist and embracing the devils counterfeit religion "spiritualism". Many writings of the Church at the turn of the century clearly state these things. So yes it was an act of God for God's hand is in all things. We are shown throughout the Book of Mormon and the other scriptures this pattern. When man gets puffed up in pride destruction of various kinds fall upon man to call him to repentance. It is best that we are not compelled to be humble but humble ourselves willingly without needing God's wrath to do so.

We have once again turned away from God, so why should we expect anything less?

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I was watching a self-proclaimed preacher who runs a site called "tomorrow's world" who indicated that the economic crisis, his belief that America has fallen as a super power in the world, that the national debt, is a result of our nation not obeying the commandments of God. He also quotes our inability to conquer the terrorists and the looming threat of bio and nuclear terror as a result of disobedience to the commandments.

So, do you think this is so -- is the poor economy, our perceived fallen state in the world stage etcetera, and the desire of other countries to destroy our way of life represents God punishing America for disobedience to His commandments?

We've had poor economies before namely the depression of the 30s.

Terrorism will probably not go away in our lifetimes. As long as the US supports Israel, this issue will be with the world. The guy should really read the Bible.

He also should get out more often. While the US is not perfect, I travel a lot in the US and abroad and I can say the Americans are basically decent human beings who care for others. There's a lot of good in this country and while we have our share of sinners, we're no sodom or gomorrah.

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He also should get out more often. While the US is not perfect, I travel a lot in the US and abroad and I can say the Americans are basically decent human beings who care for others.

For now. With what's coming, the wheat will be seperated from the chaff.

There's a lot of good in this country and while we have our share of sinners, we're no sodom or gomorrah.

For now.

From The One Pure Defense, a talk given to CES Religious Educators by Apostle Boyd K. Packer in 2004 and quoted twice in General Gonference:

"I know of nothing in the history of the Church or in the history of the world to compare with our present circumstances. Nothing happened in Sodom and Gomorrah which exceeds in wickedness and depravity that which surrounds us now.

"Words of profanity, vulgarity, and blasphemy are heard everywhere. Unspeakable wickedness and perversion were once hidden in dark places; now they are in the open, even accorded legal protection.

"At Sodom and Gomorrah these things were localized. Now they are spread across the world, and they are among us."

Were it not for the righteous living among the people of America, I have no doubt we would be destroyed or be ripe for destruction within months.

The wheat and chaff are being seperated even now, and we see the judgments of God on our doorstep. The whole world is becoming Sodom; the whole world is becoming Gomorrah.

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Matthew, you need to get out more.

I'm not saying there is no sin in the US or for that matter in the rest of the world.

What I am saying is that for the Lord's plan to prosper most of the people have to be good here in the US, and my experience is that most of us are good. This is also true of Europe, where I have travelled extensively, and Latin America as well. The greatest growth of the Church is currently in Latin America. Spanish will soon be the dominant language of the Church if it isn't already.

Of course most of the country is non LDS, but so what? The average American is trying to do what he/she thinks is right. So much so that this country is still a magnet for the deprived of other natiions so much so that they risk everything to come here, many illegally.

While the prophets are correct in warning us against the evil practices of today's world, the US is still a pretty good place to be.

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So, I definitely believe the Lord uses economics, politics and the environment to humble his people, or even just start over (think about Noah, for example -- the ultimate in using natural forces to cleanse the earth of unrighteousness).

So what of the victims of those disasters and upheavals? Were they all deserving of some punishment? I know the Great Depression was lasted longer in Utah than any other state. What was that all about?

This goes back to Snow's point that many things have been blamed on the Lord and that blame is unwarranted. For every unrighteous person crushed there were probably even more on the right path who were also crushed. Did these people suddenly become expendable pawns who were caught in God's headlights? When can a banana or an earthquake simply be a banana or an earthquake?

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