I Am Unsure

[Jason]

I think you will find that most churches understand their roots.

As a former Church of England member (Protestant) I knew that the religion I was affiliated to is post reformation, effectively a branch off from Catholicism.

Catholics also know that after some council meeting they too left Orthodoxy.

I said that it was the original church, not the true church.

Ah, but that cannot be proven by history. The Egyptian Coptic and Nestorian are just as original. So are the gnostics.

Apparently you've not heard of the Coptics and Nestorians? How about the Gnostics?

What you're not understanding, Christos, is that there NEVER WAS AN ORIGINAL CHURCH.

I'm not going to study any literature written by Man for a while now.

I can find everything I need in the compilation that is the bible. This idea that the bible was altered to fit politics etc is a bit farfetched, there are many translations direct from the Hebrew and Greek texts as well as books which were never introduced which simply back up the accuracy of the Bible.

The Gospel according to St Thomas supports the other recordings of the Gospel as well as giving a more indepth view of the Gospel from the disciples point of view.

Do you realize that the the Gospel of Thomas is a GNOSTIC text?! It's not an Orthodox text, its one of the many Gnostic gospels available.

[Christos]

I am very much aware the the Gospel According to St Thomas is a Gnostic text, but so too was the Gospel According to St John. The Compilers of the Bible were reluctant to choose any of them but chose John.

There are many Gnostic texts but the Gospel of St Thomas is as much a record as any of the others.

I refuse to class myself as some religion.

I am Christian and do not belong to any Earthly institution, this means that I can worship where ever I wish.

I am but a single stone in the Great temple of Christ.

To quote Pope Benedict XVI "I am a humble worker in the Lord's Vineyard"

The original church is the same church that is still among us. The church of Jesus Christ. That is the only true church and it doesn't even exist on Earth. It exists within us as Christians, the word Christian means to bear Christ.

There was no need for any sort of reformation, regeneration, refurbishment or whatever people want to call it. Jesus is the same today, yesterday and forever.

Yes I have heard of the Coptics. I am a member of Christian Forums so have only met those people electronically as there doesn't seem to be any Coptic churches in my area.

The only churches in my area are either Catholic or Protestant, there is one Orthodox church and that is to serve a huge area of the entire county and they don't have a building yet.

[Jason]

The original church is the same church that is still among us. The church of Jesus Christ. That is the only true church and it doesn't even exist on Earth. It exists within us as Christians, the word Christian means to bear Christ.

That's not what you were saying earlier, but thank's for clarifying you views.

As for me, I don't believe Jesus was a real person. I believe he's part of the myth-conscious and descended form a long line of savior-gods like Osiris and Demeter.

Whatever works for you.

[8cow]

Amos talks about the Apostasy. The missionaries could show you some scripture on that...

[Christos]

I'll just explain why I don't want the answer to include the book of mormon.

I am a non-lds member and although I have read a lot of the BOM I disregard it as scripture.

I once was in a debate with a Jew, he said that Jesus was not the Christ. I quoted from the Bible but he would not accept, yes he had read the gospel but as a Jew he did not accept them as scripture.

In the same way I would like my question answered with bible evidence only.

[Palerider]

When Christ was on the earth.....there were several who did not believe who he said he was........I wonder if a scripture would have convinced them????

[Christos]

The book of Isaiah was available which contained many prophecies of Jesus

[Palerider]

and the People still did not believe he was "The Christ"......

[Christos]

Some people wouldn't because it was prophesised that Jesus would bring peace, which he didn't at the time but as we know will do.

Not everyone disregarded Jesus as the Christ. He performed many miracles, taught great sermons such as the famous sermon on the mount and healed the sick.

People recognised that Jesus was special but some claimed that Jesus used "Demons to drive out Demons".

Put it into context, say that tomorrow is the final coming of Christ. A man appears on the news claiming to be Jesus. Would you believe him? Remembering that it is written that many men will come claiming to be the Christ.

[8cow]

Uh... Amos is the Old Testament prophet, not Book of Mormon. It's one of the last books in the Old Testament. Read it and look for phrases like "famine for the word of God"

Just FYI.

[Christos]

I got confused with the book of Enos from the BOM.

I'll search for it on BibleGateway.com.

I have been shown it before at a priesthood meeting at church.

[Christos]

The church that Jesus built never did fall into an Apostasy.

Jesus never said that will happen:

Matthew 16:18 (K.J.V.)

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

One could interpret this in two ways, Jesus named Simon Peter (meaning rock) because it is upon Peter that his church should be built, but I don't believe that is true. Jesus goes on to say that upon This Rock he will build his church. He is referring either to the Earth or Jerusalem specifically.

Also Jesus says that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, this meaning that the church will stay correct, the believers will not be punished to Hell for it.

The word Apostasy means that a single person leaves the faith, not an entire church.

Isaiah 40:8 states:

The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Luke 21:33 says :

33Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

[Ray]

Do you understand the meaning of the word “apostasy”, Christos?

To believe apostasy from the gospel never happened is to believe ALL people who once believed the gospel was true never abandoned their belief in the gospel, perhaps in favor of something else they later believed to be true.

Or in other words, if someone once believed the gospel is true, and later abandoned their belief that the gospel is true, that person has “apostatized” from the faith he once had, becoming in effect an “apostate”, in a condition known as “apostasy”.

And btw, when a person apostatizes from the gospel, they ALWAYS begin by refusing to believe a particular principle or aspect of the gospel, rather than refusing to accept all of the principles and aspects at once.

p.s. Here is a LINK to some scriptures which show that an apostasy actually happened.

[Christos]

I know that Apostasy means to leave the Gospel.

I have been a state of Apostasy myself, for two years I refused all the word of God claiming it not to be divine but manmade. This was when I was between 12-14.

At the age of 14 I left my Apostate state.

ps. the link you gave me is 95% irrelevent. It is easy to search for a word but to put that verse into absolute context is more difficult.

[Ray]

The link I gave you will lead you to scriptures which focus on the apostasy of the early Church, and you can see the context by reading all of the relevent information surrounding the scriptures you are given.

Anyway, you have all the tools you need to be able to find the truth, and if you refuse to see it, which is evident from your statement stating that the link to scriptures focusing on this idea are 95% irrelevant, then you alone are responsible for your decision to become an apostate.

And btw, to "apostatize" means to turn away, i.e., to apostatize from the gospel means to turn away from the gospel, and the scriptures which focus on the idea of "apostasy" show how people had turned away.

[Jason]

I have been a state of Apostasy myself, for two years I refused all the word of God claiming it not to be divine but manmade.

That's actually a state of rational thinking. Apparently you've given up on reason, and returned to your unreasonable and illogical state.

[Christos]

Each to their own.

[Ray]

[Guest Gilvisto]

I thought Amos 8:11 is extremely relavant... (that is the scripture Diddly Wack was talking about, I do believe) Also pay attention to 2nd Thess. 2:3.

Ray, you have great points. You finally said what I've been thinking, but I was not able to put it into words that would not sound offensive.

Christos, I don't know what you're thinking... I myself have always been a member, but I had to be "converted" every bit as much as an investigator... In my search, it all seemed very easy to find. I've had loads of deep theological discussoins with many other faiths... but it all came back to LDS.

Might I make a reading suggestion? "The Seventeen Evidences" is an excellent book about a group of friends who set out in an attempt to find the truth. They read the bible and come up with 17 doctrines the true church MUST have. They couldn't find it for a long time.

Yes, it's an "LDS" book, but maybe you could try a similar course. You're a scriptorian, you've said... so what truths are perfectly evident in the Bible? make a list and see if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints cannot match the list.

If your intention is not to find the truth, then I really don't have anything else to say.

Val out

[Palerider]

lets see.......James 1:5.......maybe you could pray about it......

[Guest Gilvisto]

How can you fall so fast, Christos, from loving reading about Christ in the Americas and commenting that Moroni's book answers so many questions, to wandering again from church to church, claiming no denomination whatsoever?

Did you not feel something? Did you not let the Spirit do all the conformation for you?

I'm sure you did feel something... you first came here excited about the gospel. Within a few weeks you now not only have lost your fire, but you're fighting against it.

I'm not saying this as an insult. I want you to remember the feeling you once had. I'd hate to see you go.

Val out

[Christos]

To be honest there always was one thing that held me back very much.

Galatians 1:6-9

6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

I am seeing now that the thing that held me back was myself. I was leading myself into something without much thought, I was answering yes to all the questions.

I have been excited about the Gospel for many years.

There is only one Gospel but many accounts.

[8cow]

Why are you struggling so hard?!?! It isn't that difficult. Pray. Read the scriptures, only the Bible if you must. Pray. How can you not feel the truth? Have you seriously hardened your heart that much!?

I know its true. I hope someday you can too.

MormonGurl

[Christos]

It isn't my heardening of heart but rather my submission to the warning given in Galatians 1:6-9

[Guest Gilvisto]

No, my friend... you are doing excatly what Paul was warning against.

Paul wrote to members of the church... warning them to stay in the church and not move from it because others corrupt doctrine. You were in the church a short while and were moved from it.

-Val

PS: A long while ago you talked about the rock on which Christ would build his church (Matthew 16): that rock was the rock of revealation. Christ says "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my father which is in heaven"... that's the rock he's talking about.