Sanitized Posting?


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Guest mormonmusic

I have a question -- I notice this discussion forum isn't afraid to broach a lot of topics that are personal or controversial, such as adultery in temple marriage, struggling attitudes with the Church, etcetera, when everyone knows non-members frequent our pages. Many non-members are forming opinions about the Church when they visit, and might be put off by what they read.

It's here that you see both sides of the gospel in stark reality -- the spiritual experiences of the gospel, as well as the hardships, heartaches and controversies of being a member.

Does this ever bother you? Do you think we discourage as many people as we encourage toward the gospel as a result? What makes you not concerned about this and about whether we're being good member missionaries?

There have been times I've often not written something because I'm afraid that if a non-member saw it, they might get the wrong idea about whether we're an attractive religion at all, or whether the fruits of the gospel are really present in our lives. And of course, times when I haven't self-censored and just blurted it all out...but my question remains....how do you feel about this?

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I feel there is honesty and that's great. I don't think it's okay to portrait or hide something that we are not. We are humans. We make mistakes, Latter Day Saints and all. Just like in our doctrine (past and present) I think others value it more when we are open and honest about it rather than try to cover it up because it may hurt someone's feelings. By doing that (covering it up, hiding) unfortunately, we create the opposite effect that the one we intended.

As long as the topics are discussed with respect, I think is great.

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As a non-member I find the discussions here illuminating because they don't shy away from the harsh realities of life, both the stuff we all have to put up with and those which affect LDS members specifically. If everybody put their lives into a sentimental soft focus I'd actually be suspicious. A place like this allows people like myself to see the variety of opinion and experience of the LDS faithful.

Self-censorship is generally a bad thing, although I keep my posts here appropriate to the forum as a general rule (I try to be considerate and gentlemanly) and when I see open and honest communications on this board I know it's coming from real people living real lives. I don't always agree with some posts, but what I'm not seeing here is a bland and lifeless group of people doing nothing but reinforcing each other's worldviews and ignoring reality.

That might sound a little harsh and I apologise for any inelegance in my phrasing, but the bottom line is this; keep up the honesty. It shows the world what the LDS church and it's members truly are, and goes a long way to breaking down decades of stereotypes and negative publicity.

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I do often if I'm chasing down an anti- or going after some psuedo-apologist. As for the rest of it, why worry?

Transparency is a buzz-word right now. Shouldn't we pursue this? Not everyone is a dingus on this site like me and infact most people here are great, but have the normal life drama that everyone else has. The honesty is refreshing and personally, I find it the most attractive bit on this forum.

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Personally, I think those who are scared away by the honesty and openness of this forum would have been scared away by something or other at some point anyway. A person who doesn't like the fact that LDS go through the same trials and troubles as everybody else is looking for a "fluffy kittens and puffy clouds" religion, and frankly, one doesn't exist.

The gospel is a gospel of truth. If we try to hide the truth, then we aren't promoting the gospel. And that truth is that the Savior is here for EVERYONE, no matter what you go through. Whether your dealing with adultry, domestic violence, addictions, depression, or any number of other problems, the gospel can be a healing force in your life. We are all here to support each other in that, offer our opinions and views on many topics, and advice based our own personal experiences.

People who come here should know that everyone is biased in their own direction and that things discussed here are not all doctrine. Keep an open mind and an open heart. One thing I find the most attractive about this forum is that it IS open to many topics and everyone can discuss them civilly with one another. We have people who are members, non-members, investigators, experienced, in-experienced, young, old, and everything in between all communicating and sharing thoughts and ideas in an area where they can feel free to be open. People can disagree and still get along. People can share their hurts and their joys, seek advice on sensitive topics, and offer their own advice. We can bring up any topic we'd like to learn more about and here several view-points. I like that very much, and I think that is a wonderful way to build a good reputation.

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I think you raise a really good question.

However, you cant HIDE certain things about what goes on (even if it is in the personal and private lives of members) just because you think it may urge them toward accepting the gospel. I think that is ridiculous and manipulative.

Our greatest exercise and trial in life is to deal with all the garbage and nastiness that the world hands us in a manner that is congruent with the teachings of the Savior. I would never want to give off the vibe that because I am LDS my life is rosey (...and yours can be too if you JUST join!).

I just dont think portraying that is right. Sure, we all could be trying harder to be more Christlike and we all could be doing MORE to live as he did but that doesnt mean we somehow diminish or shy away from talking about the things going on in our lives. The gospel didnt BRING those things into our lives. There is a great lesson to be learned in all of the forums regarding marriage and adultry and porn, etc. I think if people's eyes are really opened, no matter what religion they happen to be, they can see that truth is truth no matter what. One would be a fool not to take the knowlege and run with it.

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I think you raise a really good question.

I would never want to give off the vibe that because I am LDS my life is rosey (...and yours can be too if you JUST join!).

My point exactly. The lack of glazed smiles and earnest eyes imploring readers to become 'one of us' (I can hear that creepy chant now) and suddenly live a life of bliss is the strength of this forum.

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i think this is a great topic because i was thinking how great it is to be able to share our ups and downs with each other. we all have trails of some sort or another. In here we have a place to talk a place to vent, a place to fellowship and help each other through lives trails, a place to share, a place to learn and grow.

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I'm all for honesty, but I have to confess that the discussion forums here often discourage me. I'm not criticising anyone as this is purely my own reaction to the 'honesty' people present when they are anonymous online. I can't articulate my thoughts on this well, but I think it has something to do with wondering if most church members are, behind the Sunday masks, doubtful about their religion the majority of the time. Forums like this one influence my thinking when I look around at church and wonder if even my bishop has a testimony...and if we all doubt so much, then what on earth are we doing committing our lives to a church we have to continually convince ourselves we believe in?

Forums are where people can post their true thoughts anonymously...if so many of us behind the scenes are either doubting Thomases, adulterers, porn addicts, gossips and so on, then I just wonder what makes us a 'peculiar people' at all? We may as well be any group of people if the gospel isn't changing our lives and making us somehow 'different' to the world at large.

It's great for the public to see us 'human', but where do we draw the line?

How do we show that the gospel offers something 'more' and different to what the 'world' has to offer?

Edited by MsQwerty
...
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i think something that is integral to keep in mind is why does someone participate in a forum?

there is a forum i used to participate in for families effected by epilepsy. i didn't go there to be part of a special community. i went to get advise from ppl that were further progressed in the journey then me. to hear their perspectives and advise. due to that motive i only go there when i have questions. i share the concerns i have for my son with epilepsy. i don't go and share my triumphs or the grand things in my other children's lives. that's not why i'm there. if you were to meet me on that forum you would have a skewed perception of who i am and what my life is like. not because i'm deceptive but because you don't have all the info on me, because that doesn't fill my purpose in being there.

the same thing happens here. most ppl that post in forums have a need of some kind. from what i've seen most of those are not looking for a community to be part of. they already have that. what they need is a place to seek advise on that "one" issue that is eating at them, that they don't have answers for, that they don't want the ppl closest to them to know. on an epilepsy forum that's what everyone has in common. her it's lds who struggle with something (we all do at some point). wanting to know they are not alone in the world, wanting to know it's not hopeless. so you get a large quantity of those situations. if you read here long enough you will see there seems to be a cycle. we'll go months were it seems all we talk about is porn and every day a new member joins looking for advise on dealing with it. then it shifts to adultery. sometimes homosexuality.

i would imagine the same is true on sites for other religions. i think part of the definition of faith is to struggle with it at times. if we don't what have we really shown god? i don't think god wants us to accept him because we don't think and we have this blinded "faith". i think he wants us to question, to ask, to seek, to struggle. then when we accept him it's truly our will being given to him, it's a conscious act of trust. i think that's when we have real faith. such struggles are not easy. we live in a time when we are not dependent on the ppl next door to help us through them. we have access to global communities. we can "pick up and move" whenever we want. there are up's and downs to that; but it's where we are. one of the advantages is our neighbors don't need to know our business. one of the disadvantages is many of those ppl gather in the same place and from an outsider not considering all the facts it gives a skewed perspective of the group.

this is a global community. some members are here for community and have been here together for yrs. some of us have very close and what will be lasting friendships; we've had good experiences and bad. just like all communities real or virtual. other members are here for a specific reason. to seek out those of the same faith, who understand things the way they do to get answers to a pressing situation. they will only stay as long as the advise is helpful. then they pick up and move. we don't know anything else about them but their struggle.

i think we all have a personal responsibility to know what is best for us. to know what will promote our faith and what will break us down. if you need something temporary to help deal with a struggle and to move on great, i hope those that come for that find what they are looking for. if it's a need for community then wonderful, i hope you are able to find that. if life is great for you and reading ppl's struggles upsets what was a stable testimony then by all means please do not join online communities. you know if being here helps you or not. if it's not helpful then run. but understand that everyone is unique and some do find it helpful even if you don't. sometimes something that was helpful starts hurting and you have to painfully take leave of ppl you grew close to. we've had members do that. sometimes they come back when they have addressed their struggles, sometimes they don't. we are all responsible for what we expose ourselves to. no one else.

when i post i'm ready to take accountability for what i say before i hit the "post reply" button. sometimes that means having to apologize or clarify poorly worded posts. if there are threads that upset me or eat at me i don't read them. i don't ask ppl to stop talking about it because "i'm uncomfortable". i'm accountable for what i bring into my mind. i try to use tact and compassion when i post, i do care how it effects others, we should care. but in the end each is their own master.

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The South Park episode on mormons featured the stereotypical perfect mormon family. The Harrisons came to town, integrated in society, did service projects. The kids all got along and displayed their marvelous talents during family home evening. The boy made freinds with the South Park kids and helped them become better people by following his example. After the South Park dad got home from the Harrison's house, full of happy togetherness and warm energy - he had to look at his own crappy family where the kids were trying to kill each other over what tv show to watch during dinner.

See - that's parody, not reality. The image of how wonderfully perfect mormons are scares the crap out of normal people. Occasionally it causes a mormon to break under the pressure of 'how we're all supposed to be'.

We're normal people with normal struggles. There's nothing wrong with showing that.

Our claim is that if you follow this church's teachings, you'll be a happier and better person, both in this life and the next. But we're not perfect.

LM

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Guest mirancs8

I believe it's what makes us real. Just because we are Mormon/LDS doesn't suddenly make us immune to normal trials in life. Like any faith we may question things, debate issues, and at times agree to disagree. It shows that we are like everyone else... we have problems, debates, and issues in all facets of our lives.

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Forums are where people can post their true thoughts anonymously...if so many of us behind the scenes are either doubting Thomases, adulterers, porn addicts, gossips and so on, then I just wonder what makes us a 'peculiar people' at all?

I just think back over the years of general conference I've experienced, what are the subjects on? Porn, addiction, gossiping, chastity, faith and obedience to name a few. One doesn't need a message board with a statistically questionable (I suppose MOE would be a better authority on this though) sample size* to realize that we are not a perfect people. If we were perfect Conference would consist of, "Keep up the good work, amen." I'm curious though why you define peculiar to mean perfect? That isn't what it means: Bible Dictionary: Peculiar.

*Membership on the board is 27,768 of which 2,105 are active members, out of 13 million or so out of Church Membership? Not to mention the self-selecting nature of the board for those who are seeking advice or discussion on topics they don't quite understand.

P.S. The caricature of the 'Perfect Mormon' tends to come back and bite recent converts when they realize they aren't perfect and membership did not eliminate trails and concerns from their life. If we teach them one must be perfect (even if indirectly by projecting the image that is the way things are), that real Mormons don't have doubts or confusion then the conclusion they'll reach an awful lot of the time is, "I'm not cut out for this Gospel; I'm not free of doubt, pain or confusion like Brother Schmitt." It'll happen to long time members as well, who when seeing their imperfections and comparing it with the perceived perfection of others will reach similar conclusions.

Edited by Dravin
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I sometimes worry about these posts too BUT I've come to the conclusion that if people are seeking the 'truth' it's probably not going matter what we say. The 'truth' comes from prayer and studying the scriptures and asking by the power of the Holy Ghost what is true.

We are human striving to be like Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father -- we make mistakes and it's nice to know we're not alone in our struggles.

I don't believe anyone should join a church, any church thinking that now they won't have any worries.

I hope investigators who are looking to know will see these posts as real people who are trying to live the gospel, sometimes failing but none the less, doing their best to live Christlike lives. And if they see us struggle with our testimonies at times and think that that is a reason to not join......well.......they haven't searched their own hearts and asked for truth.

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What makes you not concerned about this and about whether we're being good member missionaries?

We are in actuality multifaceted individuals who do not constantly wear happy face masks. When we pretend differently do we not lose the quality of genuineness? Life is more than a smooth sales pitch and perhaps we can give ourselves some leeway because of this.

To the degree that our responses show graciousness and caring, should be sufficient. Otherwise as Nomad said, self-censorship is bad.

:)

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I just think back over the years of general conference I've experienced, what are the subjects on? Porn, addiction, gossiping, chastity, faith and obedience to name a few. One doesn't need a message board with a statistically questionable (I suppose MOE would be a better authority on this though) sample size* to realize that we are not a perfect people. If we were perfect Conference would consist of, "Keep up the good work, amen." I'm curious though why you define peculiar to mean perfect? That isn't what it means: Bible Dictionary: Peculiar.

Doesn't say much for us as a people who represent the Lord's true church now does it?

I didn't define peculiar as perfect - I meant peculiar in the terms that the prophets use - to mean that we are a people who have higher moral standards and behaviour than the 'world' at large, that we can be a beacon and a light to others of what it means to live the principles of righteousness. What's there to admire and desire about the church if we (meaning church members) are just like anyone else? Isn't this part of the appeal of the missionaries, that they give the appearance of being morally upright, spiritual, righteous people who are living the gospel and obeying the Lord? As members, aren't we to do the same thing?:

"If we are to be that which the Lord would have us be, we must indeed become “a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that [we] should shew forth the praises of him who hath called [us] out of darkness into his marvelous light” (1 Pet. 2:9). Unless the world alters the course of its present trends (and that is not likely); and if, on the other hand, we continue to follow the teaching of the prophets, we shall increasingly become a peculiar and distinctive people of whom the world will take note."

Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign, 1990

"The Apostle Peter described us in the second chapter of 1 Peter, the ninth verse: “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.” How might you and I qualify ourselves to be worthy of that designation, “a royal priesthood”? One writer said that the door of history turns on small hinges, and so do people’s lives."

Thomas S. Monson, Ensign, 2007

"We should not allow our personal values to erode, even if others think we are peculiar. "

James E. Faust

If we will cling to our values, if we will build on our inheritance, if we will walk in obedience before the Lord, if we will simply live the gospel we will be blessed in a magnificent and wonderful way. We will be looked upon as a peculiar people who have found the key to a peculiar happiness."

Gordon B. Hinckley

*Membership on the board is 27,768 of which 2,105 are active members, out of 13 million or so out of Church Membership? Not to mention the self-selecting nature of the board for those who are seeking advice or discussion on topics they don't quite understand.

Thanks for those numbers. I am not a statistician by any means. However, I have read various interpretations of what '13 million' means, when you take away almost half who are not active, and then take away the young children of record, and 25,000 here who are not active members (by that I assume you mean active members of the board?) If there are so many here alone who are having issues with serious sin, and if this is a reflection of other message boards, then we start to look like anyone else - nothing peculiar or special about how the gospel influences our lives at all.

P.S. The caricature of the 'Perfect Mormon' tends to come back and bite recent converts when they realize they aren't perfect and membership did not eliminate trails and concerns from their life. If we teach them one must be perfect (even if indirectly by projecting the image that is the way things are), that real Mormons don't have doubts or confusion then the conclusion they'll reach an awful lot of the time is, "I'm not cut out for this Gospel; I'm not free of doubt, pain or confusion like Brother Schmitt." It'll happen to long time members as well, who when seeing their imperfections and comparing it with the perceived perfection of others will reach similar conclusions.

I've been in the church long enough to have seen this in action many times. I do not rest my testimony on the behaviour of others and encourage new members to do the same. All I'm saying is the trend towards serious sin becoming a fairly common event, is a tad troublesome.

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I think less people will be scared away by honesty than they will be by the view that they need to be perfect. Nothing causes inactivity more than the disappointment in discovering yourself is still human and even worse so is everyone else that goes to church. There would be a lot less offended if they had got baptised knowing they had to still function as normal human beings amongst other normal human beings

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Doesn't say much for us as a people who represent the Lord's true church now does it?

You mean that we aren't perfect? I don't think that should be a surprise for anyone, either in or out of the Church.

If there are so many here alone who are having issues with serious sin, and if this is a reflection of other message boards, then we start to look like anyone else - nothing peculiar or special about how the gospel influences our lives at all.

Except the ~2,000 (or the larger number if you prefer) here aren't all having serious issues. Also, not everyone in that number (whichever you prefer) is in the active half of the Church nor is everyone in the number posting serious issues.

All I'm saying is the trend towards serious sin becoming a fairly common event, is a tad troublesome.

What trend? I'd say you are probably more aware that yes, Mormons have issues as opposed to their being some great trend towards more of them having issues. Until recently you didn't have the online communities that lent themselves to people airing their laundry, so how would you have found out that Brother Schmitt is having issues with pornography before then?

Of course even if it is an increasing trend (which I don't see any evidence for), that shouldn't surprise anyone, in the Last days even the very elect will be deceived.

Edited by Dravin
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I've been in the church long enough to have seen this in action many times. I do not rest my testimony on the behaviour of others and encourage new members to do the same. All I'm saying is the trend towards serious sin becoming a fairly common event, is a tad troublesome.

Think difference is more people talk about - child abuse has always happened but in some centuries it was legal, now it isn't more people speak out.

I think its good that people are able to speak out, because that is the start of them battling the sin, instead of keeping it inside and never repenting - there is a story about a couple in the Miracle of Forgiveness, who committed sexual sin outside of marriage and did not know they could repent, instead they spent many years raising their children in the gospel hoping for better for them. these days they wouldn't have spent many years keeping quiet they can come and start discussing it and how to move forward

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I do not rest my testimony on the behaviour of others and encourage new members to do the same.

Perhaps not, but you do allow the behavior of others to keep you from attending the temple:

All the general fluffiness that surrounds open houses is nice for the public, but in my opinion it does little to illuminate the reality of what happens during the ceremonies in the temple. It took me a very long time to find enjoyment in the temple (I took out my own endowments pre-1990). It was an experience I saved and struggled and spent two years preparing for, that left me feeling disturbed and nauseous to the point of vomiting for days after. It did get better for me post-1990 - marginally.

I like the atmosphere of the temple, the surroundings, the way people interact with each other, how everyone is dressed in white and all are equal in a spiritual sense - but the actual ceremonies/ordinances just don't do much for me, even when I'm doing work for direct ancestors I feel a real bond with.

Some of my feelings, I'm sure, are due to the fact I've known some pretty terrible human beings who are 'temple-worthy', even child molestors, who have attended the temple whilst committing the most unspeakable acts against their children and wives. I don't like being in the temple wondering 'who' might be one of those people. I have had a stake president who beat his wife (a friend of mine) and children and kept them living in poverty while he lavished expensive 'boy-toys' on himself - he attended the temple often and I simply could not attend when he was there.

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Good evening all! I hope everyone is healthy and happy. :)

It is true that we are all "just human" and we are all imperfect. It's true that we all make mistakes and it is also true that we shouldn't act like we don't make mistakes. Being disenginuous is a form of dishonesty. We should be sincere, honest, and true to ourselves and to others. But, because all of this is true it doesn't mean that our potential and our duty isn't more than we are.

As members of God's true church and as disciples of Jesus Christ, we are held to a higher standard. When we take on temple covenants and particularly for the men of the Church when they receive the priesthood, we do so by covenant. A covenant that demands from us something better; something better than what we are now and even something better than we are able to accomplish if we were acting alone. Our covenants not only bind us to act better but they also give us the power to be better.

It's been mentioned already that God's people have always been a peculiar people. They have been a people who have been set apart. To set apart means to be distinquishable from the norm or others. What sets God's people apart is they morality, their justice, their mercy, their goodness, their kindness, their love for God and for their neighbor, their charity, their purity, and their strict obedience to all of God's commandments.

Of course we are imperfect and of course we will fail. But, to those who have entered in to the waters of baptism and who have taken upon them sacred covenants, God has promised power to overcome the flesh and the fiery darts of the adversary. Until we are exalted, we will always find need for the atonement. This is a given. However, we still can be perculiar in this life if we only choose to follow Christ in all things. If we actually take upon us the name of Christ, and if we actually always remember Him, and if we actually always keep His commandments that He has given us, then we will actually always have His Spirit to be with us, and when we do have the Spirit with us, then will our countenance shine and we will be light and beacon to the world. We will be a standard of righteousness that good men and women will see and recognize as the light of Christ shining through us and they will be attracted to that goodness in us and want more!

We cannot nor should we ignore our imperfections and fallible nature. On the other hand, we ought not to celebrate our imperfections either, supposing that it is our imperfections that make us attractive to the outside world or which sets us apart. If we see that we are losing our flavor and are just blending in to the world, then this should be a call to action on our parts to repent and do better. We shouldn't languish in our sins thinking all is well and it is but human to be imperfect and sinful! Especially when we've been given the power, and the promise, and we've been given the means to be more than what we are!

God expects more from His people. If we are His disciples then we will be peculiar. We will be set apart. It will be obvious to those around us because we will have chosen to live according to a higher standard and a higher law. And this is what people are looking for, more than anything else, people want to know where truth is. They want to know where true peace and happiness can be found. They already know about the failures of mankind and they've found that all in themselves and all around them, but where is goodness and light? Is there anyone who has this light? Are there any true disciples of Christ? Are they here at lds.net and if so, do people notice?

Regards,

Finrock

Edited by Finrock
Edited word to better reflect my intended meaning.
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Concerning the matter that being "just like everyone else" may make it seem that the church has done nothing to help us:

It is easy to see how this connection can be made, however it is a false connection. It is good that we are "just like everyone else" in the extent that we also go through struggles with sin. We are human, we are imperfect, as has been stated by many here. To remove that sense of humanity would leave those investigators feeling disconnected. They would lose interest, because our way of life seems impossible for them. They start thinking that someone who has gone through what they are going through, done what they've done, experienced what they've experienced, could never become a member of the church. These people need to see that we go through the same struggles they do, and we fall victim to the same sins.

Where we are different, or peculiar, is in how we handle those struggles and sins. We hold ourselves to a higher standard than the world, and when we break that standard we must repent and recommit ourselves to righteous living. In this, we progress from being just like everyone else, to overcoming our weaknesses, the drive of the flesh, and developing self control. Instead of remaining in sin, we cast it aside. Over time, we become stronger, more rooted in our testimony, and closer to the Savior.

This is what the gospel has done for us, how being a member of the church helps us. We may still fall victim to the plagues of addiction and other serious sins, but we are able to overcome them. The longer you are an ACTIVE member (and by active I mean more than just coming to church and reading your scriptures), the less hold sin has over you.

What would be discouraging to me was if I saw a trend where members of the church who experienced these trials became stuck in them, never learned, never grew, never changed, never progressed. I would not be concerned with the number of people who go through the struggles, but in the number of people who recover from them.

The recovery rate of the world is low. Even with wonderful programs like AA, NA, Anger Management, and similar such programs to deal with addictions and other serious issues, people in general have great difficulty recovering. I don't have any actual statistical numbers, but I'm fairly certain that if one were to look at the recovery rate for members of the church it would be much higher.

This is where I find my comfort. Yes we make the same mistakes as everyone else. But the gospel of Christ helps us heal.

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