My Court Experience Yesterday with the Ex... enough drama to write a book

[Guest mirancs8]

It's been a while that I have posted anything regarding my divorce so I thought it was about time for an update. Yesterday was my resolution court date. Basically in Arizona when you are getting a divorce you have a resolution meeting with the judge to put temporary orders in place until the final court trial date. We both are trying desperately to avoid going to trial as it can be very expensive. Unfortunately he and I can't seem to see eye to eye on one issue and that is the visitation. He keeps pounding the issue of "I need everything regarding the kids to be 50/50" since we have agreed to do Joint Legal Custody I take that as he has 50/50. What he get's confused with is the visitation. I've tried many times to explain to him that visitation and custody are two different things. We both agree on the custody.

It was so upsetting to see him on the stand telling such lies about me and my family. Especially about my own mother who he was accusing of beating the children. The judge didn't buy it at all. I questioned my older son a number of times and he denied that his grandmother or anyone ever raised a hand to either he or his younger brother. It was humiliating to have things that I confided in him about over the years of our marriage be put out as if he had so care or concern as to how I feel. I was just torn. When I went up on the stand I told the judge that in fact I was the care giver to the children and that the current visitation worked very well for the children. I did not want them to be tossed from one house to another. He sees them every other weekend and on every Tues. night.

At the end the judge said that she agreed that the evaluations be done (me, my ex, the kids, and my mother). My lawyer said that she is a very liberal judge and wasn't shocked at her ruling. I was shocked! She ruled 50/50 visitation on a temporary basis till the trial. One week him one week me. It took everything in me to not fall to the ground sobbing in pain. My heart was torn... the pain was unbearable to take. But I kept it together.

Of course in the car it hit me. I fell apart crying uncontrollable... so much so I couldn't see as I was driving home. I came into the house and my mother naturally concerned asked me what happen I looked at her and said, "I need to be alone. Just leave me alone I don't want to talk to anyone right now." Of course my cell phone was ringing and my text messages were going off from friends from my ward, family and such... I chose to answer one of those calls. Kept the rest at bay till I could pull myself together emotionally.

About an hour or so after the court my ex started to send me text after text after text after text. Here are just a few quotes of the texts he sent to me. I am tempted to correct his spelling but heck I'll just show him in his true light.

"Sorry to bring the reality in the court room. I hope u clense your dark heart."

"He is my lawyer God is with me in every step u can not fight his will and take my kids to false believes read the bible nothing else that is the best perscription I can give u. Fill your heart with Christ he will guide u trust him next step is full custody if I get that I will still give u 50 50"

His texts are painful to read as they have no rhyme or reason to them. He's all over the place. One minute he says doesn't know why he did what he did the next minute he's making me out to be the devil in disguise. Truly he's mental. BTW, the false believers are us Mormons. Ow yes he just dislikes us to such a degree it's unbelievable.

Finally at the end of all those text his pleads with me to meet him for dinner. WTF!!!!! Are you serious? What is crazy is that I was considering it! I told him that the only way I would even consider meeting him is if he started speaking to me in a more respectful tone and fixing is attitude. After some thought I decided to go meet him, I put the digital recorder in my cleavage, and met him for dinner. I made sure to pick my most favorite and most expensive place to meet at. He was doing his best to be nice and I'll give him credit there. Very little small talk was made and we immediate dove into the issues. I asked him if he really viewing me as such a heartless mother who was never involved in our childrens lives. I didn't let him speak and continued to give example after example of what I have done as a wife and mother. His head went down and he said that he knows that and he wrote it all in the letter he gave me (which I have it was written 2 days before he was served) which outlined what a great wife and mother I was.

We went back and forth on the 50/50 issue and he suddenly comes out and says that he really wants to keep the visitation as is but everything on the papers 50/50. I tried to dig deeper on exactly what he was trying to say. It didn't make any sense. You want to keep things the way they are BUT you want 50/50. Something isn't right. I told him that I have to speak to my lawyer to see how this would be done. Meaning keeping the schedule as is but leaving the flexibility that with a certain amount of notice he could have the kids for a week. I can tell he felt badly about putting me through what he put me through but then again he quickly forgets the next day and we are back to square one. My friend made a valid point last night that he is simple trying to avoid paying child support. Makes sense right? Keep the schedule the way it is because he knows he could never handle it having the kids that much AND not have to pay child support because on paper it's 50/50. Dang he's good.

So this is where I am at. I'm still confused. I want to avoid a trial which is in Sept. but I don't want to cut the kids off on what they rightfully deserve. My older son was very upset about the week on with dad and such. I felt bad because it's the children who are going to be affected. I want them to have that consistency. Since it's highly unlikely either of us will be staying in Arizona in the next few years that discussion came up as well. We didn't have a problem agreeing on what type of visitation he would have which would be the summers and alternating holidays. But for obvious reasons he wants it to be 50/50 on paper. That obvious reason is paying child support.

I don't know what to make of any of this. I need to speak to my lawyer as well as edit the tape sending the relevant parts of the recordings to my lawyer. I want this all to end yet I don't want to jump the gun and make a stupid emotionally charge decision. Much of my decisions are so emotionally driven because of this being an emotional event in my life. I value the fact that I have people in my life who give me a good slap of reality and logical thinking. I need that ow so much right now. Because I'm the one in the divorce my emotions tend to be what drives my choices/decisions and that is not the best way to make a decision.

I have him on tape saying that he can't do the week on and week off so that is a good thing. Please do keep us in your prayers. It's just horrible how much they take into account his lies. I was just very surprised considering the judge did call him on a few. It is so hard right now to believe that God has our best interest in heart but then again it's these trials that he puts us through that strengthen us. I couldn't even bring myself to read scriptures or pray last night. I felt so disconnected from my beliefs and I was having a hard time believing that HF is putting me through this for a reason that would bring a good outcome. So much of me felt that HF was punishing me for what I don't know.

My only concern is that the children have consistency and stability in their lives.

[FairChild]

I hope you are able to make and keep copies of everything and I mean everything. Text messages, phone messsages, letters, notes and anything else you might think that is important. If your children have negative behavior after visiting dad, journal that as well. Journal about what you are doing to care for your children. It might be a good thing to do trades in a public place. That will help your ex to behave better during trade (hopefully it will be easier on the children) and if nothing else, give you witnesses on bad behavior.

I know it is hard for your children, but they may be blessed to know and to never ever do this to their children. Breaking the cyccle of abuse is hard, but it is possible.

[WmLee]

It’s a shame you can’t ask him what time he will pick the kids up or what time you should bring them over each week he has custody; then document each time he can’t and why. You have tour mother there to help you. Who will watch the kids while he is at work, or until he gets home? It’s shame you can’t simply document all of this and take it to court for the next hearing.

People do stupid things when it comes to divorce. Never make the kids like a pawn in some game called divorce. Protect them as much as you can, but play by the rules and by the decisions of the judge.

[candyprpl]

Yes, you will stay in my prayers.

I agree -- journal/document EVERYTHING.

I know it's hard to understand why we have to go through trials like these and especially when it involves our innocent children. Try and do whatever you can to strengthen your faith and your children's faith -- read scriptures and pray together often. Sometimes that is all we can do -- the whys of these situations can only give way for Satan to put doubt in your mind -- a very scary thought.

Also, try and connect with others who have gone through divorces with kids involved -- that kind of support is invaluable. Talk to your Bishop and if you have a LDS counselor in your Stake, they can help with you and the children. I wouldn't mention it to your husband, obviously.

And again, even when you don't feel like it, read your scriptures and pray -- now is not the time to distance yourself from Heavenly Father. Christ's Atonement proves he loves you and knows your pain and He wants to help you through this.

Love, Candace

[Tamiele]

One thing that I wanted to add/remind you of, is sometimes when we see things unfolding in our lives, after we have done all we can to give the problem to Heavenly Father, it may LOOK like it isn't going in our favor - but often times it is the path that needs to happen to get to the desired results. Stay positive and trust in Him.

[Just_A_Guy]

Mirancs, two thoughts (and bear in mind, I'm not licensed to practice law in Arizona):

1) A well-drafted divorce decree will include a provision as to how parent-time works if one or both parties leave the state or move over 150 miles away. Make sure that yours does/will.

2) I don't know what Arizona law is regarding secretly recording conversations. You might have done something illegal. Don't tell your ex you recorded him until you've cleared it through your lawyer. If you do give an edited recording to your lawyer, be sure you also keep the whole, unedited version somewhere.

3) Be advised that child custody evaluations can cost several thousand dollars. A guy I know here in Utah starts at $2,000, and typically charges more like four or five.

Good luck -

[Roseslipper]

(((((((((((((((mirances))))))))))))))) heres a giant hug for you. you have my support girl . Trust in the Lord. and dont give up on Him when things get ruff and tuff thats when you need him more. Stay close to him, seek for his comfort, guidance and help to get you thru this very hard time.

[Guest mirancs8]

Thank you everyone! Yes I am documenting everything. Yes I can tape record my ex without him knowing. No I would never tell him or lead him into believing that I was recording him. I feel much better today though it's still weighing on me heavy.

From mid afternoon till around 8pm he non-stop kept texting me then he called me and threatened me over the phone. First call I didn't have the recorder but the 2nd call I did. He was threatening me and screaming over the phone. I'm starting to believe others who tell me that they honestly believe he's on drugs are something. Completely out of control, not able to stay on topic, and sounding desperate and frantic over the phone. He tried to threaten me by saying he was going to pick up the kids on Sunday night to do his week visitation which yesterday he said he couldn't because as he put it he "has a life." So suddenly it all changes. My response, "OK, great. Be here at 7pm, you owe Sis. N** $125 when you pick up the kids no later than 6pm on Monday (he get's off of work at 6pm!), and you need to pick them up from scouts on Wed. at the LDS church. HA HA HA!!!! He is in this complete panic! Then he's on the phone saying well give me 2 weeks to get myself in order. Why? This is what you wanted and the judge granted it.

He flipped out when I said that I would let my attorney know that he wasn't able to take the kids this week as he was granted. He didn't want me to say anything. Well of course I am! You can't even follow through with week 1. Why did you even demand this when you can't even do it? I'm sorry but he is just making a mess of this process. The kids in the mean time are going to be dragged through it. Imagine he lives 25 miles away which mean he'll hit high traffic taking them to school and he'll have to leave by at least 7am to get them there by 8:15am. He get's off of work at 6pm which means he's going to have to somehow pay extra and convince Sis. N** to watch the kids till 7pm or even 7:30pm. Now they have to drive all the way back to his apartment which is another 45 min. to an hour. So let's say they are home by 8:30pm (which is their bedtime) they still need to finish up homework, eat dinner, take their baths, and get ready for bed. Yeah I can't wait to see how this week ends up. Should be a blast for the kids I'm sure.

I did read my scriptures today and do feel better. I just think that I am allowing my emotions to get the best of me. He unfortunately knows me well enough to know he can get to me emotionally. BUT the thing is I kept really cool and pulled together on the phone today. I surprise myself because I really kept things in check. I wanted to keep calm and collective so that his true colors would shine through. He is freaking out right now because on Monday he has to pay up front 6K for the evaluation. He requested it and I told the judge he should have to pay for it. Now depending on how things go in the end I could end up paying half. But that's OK. I think the evaluation will help to confirm how he is not fit to have the kids 50/50 or full time. I think he knows that too because he is trying really hard to convince me to not do the evaluation and to just come to an agreement. Sure as soon as he agrees to keep the visitation in tact the way it is we can come to an agreement. Another thing is he doesn't want to pay child support.

It's been a rough day. I truly have no desire to talk to him this much. I almost was tempted to call my attorney after one to many threats came my way via the phone and text messages. He keeps bulling me and telling me he's going to destroy me and my family. He's a bully and a liar. He doesn't care about seeing the kids it's more about the money AND more importantly getting me back by keeping my kids away from me. He know they are my life and he knows it will be very difficult for me to be away from them for an entire week.

I've been saying it the entire time it's not about the kids it's about me. Ow well. Got to keep on fighting for the kids.

[Tamiele]

Reading through your comments, I couldn't help but feel that you are right in wondering if he has lost his grip in reality or is taking drugs. He sounds very unstable. Just be careful, he doesn't sound in control of himself.

[Loving_Wife]

Got to keep on fighting for the kids.

Although my situation was a bit different than yours I can tell you some of the things that we did that helped us in court.

We got the kids into therapy. The therapist then worked with the kids and their issues with their mom and took the pressure off of their Dad and I about the behaviors my cousin was doing that had very negative effects on the kids. It also stopped any of the "your attacking me and brainwashing the kids against me" accusation.

We recorded phone conversations that the kids had with my cousin. Due to the drug use and her lack of memory it was a way to show her how what she said effected the kids. Even now that she is off of the drugs those video's have been priceless in helping her to understand Michael's actions and why he did what he did and the choices he made when it came to her having contact with the kids. It has been healing for us and has helped her to understand, and remember, her actions.

This is one of the harder things to do but I can say that it can be done. We learned to give. We learned to let some things go. An example is although she had a license to drive, due to the drug use, we did not want her driving with the kids in the car. So we took the kids to see her, stayed during the visit and then brought them back home. Was it a pain, yeah it was BUT it was about the kids and what was best for them.

The last bit of advice I have is to be generous, be kind, be loving (yeah that was a hard thing for me to do especially when I had one kid in a locked pysch unit and another in intensive day therapy) towards the other parent. My kids now are well adjusted, happy kids who are thriving. I firmly believe that our actions have helped them to be forgiving because we gave them that example.

Just keep repeating, it's about the kids, take deep breaths and one thing that the therapist told me "do not forget yourself. Take that 30 minute walk to give to yourself. If you fall the apart you cannot help your children."

Edited April 18, 2010 by Loving_Wife
typo's

[Guest mirancs8]

Edit

Edited May 1, 2010 by mirancs8

[Loving_Wife]

In our court order we had something that said something along the lines of "the respondant will not remove the children from school for any reason." We then took that to the school and they could not, legally, release the kids to her. During this time Michael had joint legal custody with my cousin. Michael had sole physical custody of the kids.

I went back and reread my journal enteries from that time and they were not nice. They were not loving, forgiving or generous! I was angry. How dare she take those kids and harm them even more. How dare she mentally hurt "my" children like this, etc. In the midst of our battle with my cousin I was far from being and feeling how I do today.

The reason why I said what I did about being generous, kind and loving is because when we went to court it worked against my cousin. The Judge even commented on how much we were willing to work out issue and she was the problem. Our first court hearing wasn't like that. We got raked over the coals and there were a LOT of court orders that we had problems with. It took us documenting everything and the kids' therapist getting involved as well before we got the orders changed. We had to prove that the reason for our requests was not to keep the kids from their mother (which a lot of parents in divorce do) but because we had valid concerns.

I know it's hard to see now but keep fighting for what you KNOW is best for your children. Don't forget to take that walk ... it will help!

[Guest]

I don't know anything about your situation miran, this is the first post I've read of it, so forgive me if I sound ignorant.

Your husband may be the biggest loser on the planet, but for now, I'll give him some slack. It would be great if you can read this post as an address "to all Fathers" not necessarily your husband.

In my opinion 50/50 - visitation and custody - SHOULD be the ideal unless one side is abusive. So, when I read that you are upset about him asking for 50/50 visitation, not knowing any deeper detail on the situation - makes me feel inclined to side with your ex-husband. If my husband and I were to divorce, I wouldn't even think of having any other arrangement than 50/50 custody and visitation. One week here next week there makes sense to me - or one month here, one month there, etc. A father has the right to take care of his own children just as much as the mother does.

Unfortunately, the courts here in Florida, are known to be anti-Father, so that a Father has to undergo a bigger hardship to gain even just a little close to 50% custody/visitation with the children that a lot of them have no choice but to get UGLY in court! Mrs. Doubtfire rings true to a LOT of Florida Fathers - several of which are members of my ward.

Sure, he may not be able to follow through with his end of the 50/50 - so, you should be happy about that - you get to have the children more. But, it is not right for you to deny him his 50 just because you don't like him anymore. Unless he is an abusive father. If he can get the kids a stable environment living that far from their school, then let him try!

Also, vilifying him on a forum by posting his text messages for all the public to see - I really think this is very bad form for you.

Sorry if I sound harsh. Please understand I don't know the situation and just commenting from this one post. If I'm completely off-base, I apologize and you can lambast me as you see fit and I will bow my head and accept it as my medicine.

[ADoyle90815]

This is why I'm glad I didn't have children when I got divorced as I don't have to deal with my ex-husband at all, as he would have done similar things.

[Guest mirancs8]

Anatess, thank you for starting out your comment with not knowing anything about my situation… this is very true. As I’ve stated before many of us here that post don’t know much of the details behind others situations who we comment on. My own experience has a history of years which could most likely turn into a Lifetime Channel Movie.

Many times our views when we are happily married can drastically differ form that of a person who is in a toxic and abusive relationship. I too felt like you did when I first got married. I would get so upset hearing of a woman supposedly keeping her children from her ex-husband. How dare she! The nerve he’s the father! Yep I use to say those things but not long after I was married my perspective started to change. Not drastically all at once mind you, but slowly with each year I started to better understand why people do the things they do in marriages and divorces. I’ve learned to not be so quick to judge especially when I am in no position to do so. Suddenly having children though seemed like a great fix at the time for him quickly turned into a complicated and even more abusive situation for me. I know you feel bad for him because you feel like he’s being attacked… you want to cheer for the one not represented.

50/50 is not always a good option. First of all you are shifting the children way to much during a school week. The consistency and routine is no longer in place and instead they are feeling like refuges crossing the border on a weekly basis. Schooling is a huge issue. He never finished high school but did get his GED plus 2 years of college but he can put together a simple cohesive sentence let alone help the children with their homework. Education is key and I want them to have the best opportunity to be successful in their schooling. Unlike me who as a child had no help from my parents as they, because of war, were unable to finish their schooling. My mother made sure no matter what I would get my education. I am SO grateful for that!

My son does not want to live with his father on that type of schedule. I don’t blame him. He has his bedroom, school, friends, after school activities, and everything else he is use to. He doesn’t want that to change. I will do what I have to so that the children are happy. My ex is not mentally stable and constantly argues with the kids, quickly becomes erratic in his behavior when things get a little to complicated, he’s unable to handle a stressful situation without going into a complete panic mode, and he doesn’t follow a schedule with the children (time for bed, brushing, homework, etc). Kids need a happy balance between structure and fun time.

I am not denying him 50/50 because I dislike him… no I’m doing it because it is not right for the kids. He doesn’t care about the children as much as he cares about not having to pay child support. He can’t handle the kids even 10% of the time. I know ow to well the few times I left him even for a few hours with the kids and all the fights and I’d come home with my older son in tears. My older son comes back from visitation all stress out. It’s not fun for a kid. He wants 50/50 on paper but doesn’t want to actually see the kids 50/50. It’s a great way to get out of paying child support. Plus he knows how much the children mean to me and that’s one “tool” he can use to get back at me. He is very hyper focused on me at this point and this is just not a good thing.

BTW, his text that I put up is a cut up edited snip of a quote from the 100’s of texts he’s been sending. Next time I’d be happy to paraphrase it instead if that would make you feel better.

So now as you put it I expect you to bow your head and take your medicine Just teasing you.

[Guest]

Anatess, thank you for starting out your comment with not knowing anything about my situation… this is very true. As I’ve stated before many of us here that post don’t know much of the details behind others situations who we comment on. My own experience has a history of years which could most likely turn into a Lifetime Channel Movie.

Many times our views when we are happily married can drastically differ form that of a person who is in a toxic and abusive relationship. I too felt like you did when I first got married. I would get so upset hearing of a woman supposedly keeping her children from her ex-husband. How dare she! The nerve he’s the father! Yep I use to say those things but not long after I was married my perspective started to change. Not drastically all at once mind you, but slowly with each year I started to better understand why people do the things they do in marriages and divorces. I’ve learned to not be so quick to judge especially when I am in no position to do so. Suddenly having children though seemed like a great fix at the time for him quickly turned into a complicated and even more abusive situation for me. I know you feel bad for him because you feel like he’s being attacked… you want to cheer for the one not represented.

50/50 is not always a good option. First of all you are shifting the children way to much during a school week. The consistency and routine is no longer in place and instead they are feeling like refuges crossing the border on a weekly basis. Schooling is a huge issue. He never finished high school but did get his GED plus 2 years of college but he can put together a simple cohesive sentence let alone help the children with their homework. Education is key and I want them to have the best opportunity to be successful in their schooling. Unlike me who as a child had no help from my parents as they, because of war, were unable to finish their schooling. My mother made sure no matter what I would get my education. I am SO grateful for that!

My son does not want to live with his father on that type of schedule. I don’t blame him. He has his bedroom, school, friends, after school activities, and everything else he is use to. He doesn’t want that to change. I will do what I have to so that the children are happy. My ex is not mentally stable and constantly argues with the kids, quickly becomes erratic in his behavior when things get a little to complicated, he’s unable to handle a stressful situation without going into a complete panic mode, and he doesn’t follow a schedule with the children (time for bed, brushing, homework, etc). Kids need a happy balance between structure and fun time.

I am not denying him 50/50 because I dislike him… no I’m doing it because it is not right for the kids. He doesn’t care about the children as much as he cares about not having to pay child support. He can’t handle the kids even 10% of the time. I know ow to well the few times I left him even for a few hours with the kids and all the fights and I’d come home with my older son in tears. My older son comes back from visitation all stress out. It’s not fun for a kid. He wants 50/50 on paper but doesn’t want to actually see the kids 50/50. It’s a great way to get out of paying child support. Plus he knows how much the children mean to me and that’s one “tool” he can use to get back at me. He is very hyper focused on me at this point and this is just not a good thing.

BTW, his text that I put up is a cut up edited snip of a quote from the 100’s of texts he’s been sending. Next time I’d be happy to paraphrase it instead if that would make you feel better.

So now as you put it I expect you to bow your head and take your medicine Just teasing you.

Ah Miranc, I was waiting for you to post so I can hang my head and bow low. I knew there was a lot more to it than that. It is a very bitter medicine but I'm swallowing. You should hear me gulping...

I'm glad you understand why I had to say it. Yes, I'm one of the lucky ones and my view is, of course, skewed because of it. I just know too many good fathers that are alienated from their children. A good work friend of mine even has an extremely crazy case = he married this woman who has a 1-year-old kid from a previous marriage. He fell super-in-love with both mother and child and adopted the kid. 1 year after the adoption went through, the woman divorces him, sues him for child support, then won an ugly custody battle that only allowed him every other weekend with the child and every other holiday. The woman only married him to get child support. She was never married to the biological father of the child.

He was crushed. He was so hurt by it that he decided to cut off all ties with the child because he just can't bring himself to drop him off after a day together. I've been trying to tell him - that child needs a father, not a child support check, but I can't get him to go see the kid. It's been over 14 years now and I haven't kept up with him, so I don't know if their relationship improved.

There are tons of cases like these that a woman takes advantage of knowing that in Florida, the courts almost always sides with the mother. It breaks my heart for these fathers.

If I haven't mentioned it - I did pray for a proper resolution of your situation. Hope you and the kids come out of it together!

[Guest mormonmusic]

You said earlier you were going to edit the recording and give your laywer the relevant parts. I would suggest that you keep the full, unedited version on hand though at all times, as it might be perceived that you doctored the conversations.

I doubt if those recordings are admissible in court -- are you sure they can be used?

Edited April 30, 2010 by mormonmusic

[Guest mirancs8]

Yes I was going to edit it but there was no need as we are only going to use the phone tape not the face to face ones which were much longer (phone was about 24 min). They are admissible in court (in AZ that is) so yes we can use them.

[its_Chet]

Hey Miran

Sorry I didn't see your thread until today. I've been extremely busy, but I've been praying for you Noche, Ryanh, and everyone else who's going through marital problems/divorce around here. Doesn't it just make you sick to know that there are others suffering just like you are? I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

Actually, I finally got to a place in my life where I was able to take Ryanh's advice and mentally divorce myself. That's when the tears finally stopped. That's when I was finally able to see what she's done to me, and how Heavenly Father wanted me to have a healthier life than what I've had with her. My self esteem is very slowly returning. Losing her has gone from being a fate worse than death to the first step on my way to sanity, the kind of joyful and healthy life that we are always talking about in the Church, yet I never experienced it for more than just very rare moments with her. Some months ago, I had a dream in which I saw her with a new husband and someone tried to shoot her, and I took the bullet for her and died. Sometime after I had that dream, I told her I would die for her, knowing that as I did so, she still hated me.

It wouldn't surprise me a bit if you told me you know what I'm talking about, how it feels to bind yourself that intensely to another person, and spend 14 years denying to yourself that they don't love you. How it feels to tell yourself all that time that the person you fell in love with is the real her/him, and this hateful, neglectful person who consistently rejects you, who has little but contempt for you, is only an aberration that will someday go away and be replaced by that sweet person who knelt with you at an altar in the Temple and pledged an oath before God and angels to love you, cherish you, and stand beside you for eternity, from that day forward. I bet you know what I'm talking about.

I'm thankful that at least my soon to be ex-wife is a member of the Church, and is at least trying in her own strange way to live the Gospel. Of course, I don't know where she got the idea that thumbing your nose at the Priesthood was okay, that leaving someone and putting over 1300 miles in between him and his family is okay, just because she can't manage to cut the umbilical cord. At least she isn't running down my faith the way yours is. I'm glad I don't have to deal with that on top of those feelings you have of being abandoned or punished by Heavenly Father. I know this doesn't change anything for you, but I'm reminded of David W. Patten's last words (paraphrased): "Whatever else you do in all your life, never deny the faith.

Divorce is the devil's playground. You and others like you know that he wants you to question and doubt yourself, to believe that your marriage failing makes you a failure. I know it's how I felt for a long time, and probably will to some degree until I'm finally through with this ordeal. Satan knows if he can make you doubt yourself, it's a shorter leap to get you to doubt Heavenly Father and our Savior. I have to keep reminding myself that it doesn't make me a failure. I held on for over 13 years, being the only one in love, the only one interested in making it work. The moment I made a conscious decision to stop carrying the full weight of my unhealthy marriage on my shoulders, all by myself, I immediately noticed that she did not pick up any of the slack. It simply fell to the ground in ruin. She didn't and doesn't care. If it had not been for my commitment, it would have happened years ago. I did not fail my wife or my marriage. My wife failed me. I'm not perfect and I've got my flaws, but when I'm thinking clearly, I don't blame myself for this. It's not pride, mind you. It's the Holy Spirit consoling and comforting me, confirming the truth to me that others have told me: I was a good husband. I did not deserve to be abandoned by my wife, for her to take my children away from me and use them to blackmail me into making the lives of me and my children even more like nothing other than a means to her selfish interests.

Even though in some ways you're showing me the flip side of my own coin, I have seen from the posts of yours that I've read here and elsewhere that you have known suffering. While I can't make your tears any less, please know that at least I can empathize with much of your pain. I find myself wishing the Church could teach people like me how to better know when you've found the right one. I was misled by a temporary and unstable emotional state of the one I fell in love with. I was tricked into believing it was the real her, that she'd always be like that to me, affectionate, tender, warm, kind. I fell in love with a vapor, a ghost. I did not understand psychology well enough to know that it wasn't real and would inevitably fade, never to return. There were red flags, but I did not recognize them as such. Falling in love may be easy, but choosing someone capable of a healthy and happy long term relationship is by no means easy. There is too much mental illness out there, too many behavioral disorders, too much emotional instability, for it to be as casual an endeavor as it used to be. We often need at least a basic understanding of psychology to avoid picking a real lemon these days. And there aren't many choices we can make with the potential for greater harm or happiness than who we will marry. I learned too late about behavioral disorders, biochemical imbalances, and emotional issues. I could not see the red flags that were there. I have since learned to recognize many of them.

I imagine you know all about what I'm talking about.

If you don't mind sharing (and please don't feel pressured if you do mind), can I ask you how you were able to let go of him? When did you realize he wasn't the person you married? What happened and how did you know? It took me ages to accept the truth, to see it for what it was and is. The last thing I want to do is repeat my mistake. I think we can really learn a lot from each other. I'm still learning from my own situation. Your posts on Noche's thread have already helped me see more clearly. Who knows? Maybe I or someone else here on this thread can return the favor.

[MisterT]

This whole thing just breaks my heart. I'll fast and pray again for you tomorrow. Anything specific you'd like me to fast/pray for?

-Ryan

P.S. sorry I didn't respond to your PM; I was in a car accident and spent a few weeks in the hospital with a brain injury and when I finally read it a few days ago it didn't seem appropriate to comment at that point.

[FairChild]

With the documentation you have, why do you not have a restraining order in place against him? Just curious and want you safe.

[baver3]

If you fall the apart you cannot help your children."

This is great advice. I think that is why even though you didnt feel like praying or reading your scriptures, you MUST press on! You NEED that strength (llike you said how you were able to compose yourself in the attempt to show how put together YOU are and how FREAKING CRAZY he is).

My heart goes out to you. It also makes me scared because my first court date is coming up on the 17th and I am not sure what to expect.

I have a question for you about your recordings:

I have been recording my conversations with my spouse for some time now. What is the most effective way to use these recordings? a trascription? I am just not sure how I can make them useful.

I cannot believe he wanted to have dinner with you. And what I REALLY cant believe it that you went (even though I think it was a smart move in order to get information from him). I cant imagine that. How could you even have an appetite in a meeting like that one?

I am sooo soo sorry about how court went but I really and truly believe that eventually...and you must be patient...that the visitation thing will get ironed out so that your kids will be more stable and you will get what you really want. CLEARLY he cant handle it. Clearly he will be unable to take care of the children for an entire week with all their school stuff etc. He will be a frazzled mess. The Court will not let him get away with paying less child support when you will be the one eventually caring for the children.

Be strong and keep up your faith. I know you got kicked down a bit but get yourself back up! You can do it!

[Guest mirancs8]

This whole thing just breaks my heart. I'll fast and pray again for you tomorrow. Anything specific you'd like me to fast/pray for?

-Ryan

P.S. sorry I didn't respond to your PM; I was in a car accident and spent a few weeks in the hospital with a brain injury and when I finally read it a few days ago it didn't seem appropriate to comment at that point.

My goodness! You just don't get a break do you. I so sorry to hear about your accident I do hope you are healing from the injury and there is no permanent damage. I will keep you in my prayers!

I so appreciate everyone's prayers. I can't seem to get use to people caring and it overwhelming. I just don't know how to process it... but thank you ever so much.

[Guest mirancs8]

Sorry I didn't see your thread until today. I've been extremely busy, but I've been praying for you Noche, Ryanh, and everyone else who's going through marital problems/divorce around here. Doesn't it just make you sick to know that there are others suffering just like you are? I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

Hello its_chet. I guess it's always better to keep busy that way you can keep yourself from focusing to much on the bad that is happening in your life. I know for me keeping busy really does help me keep my priorities in check. Nothing worse then sitting around and feeling bad about yourself which I've done enough of already . Yes it makes me very "sick" to see others suffering as I am. I wish I could reach out to each and everyone to comfort them as I know what they are feeling. Though each of us in our own way deal with these very real issues there is something very refreshing when you can talk to someone who truly understands.

Actually, I finally got to a place in my life where I was able to take Ryanh's advice and mentally divorce myself. That's when the tears finally stopped. That's when I was finally able to see what she's done to me, and how Heavenly Father wanted me to have a healthier life than what I've had with her. My self esteem is very slowly returning. Losing her has gone from being a fate worse than death to the first step on my way to sanity, the kind of joyful and healthy life that we are always talking about in the Church, yet I never experienced it for more than just very rare moments with her. Some months ago, I had a dream in which I saw her with a new husband and someone tried to shoot her, and I took the bullet for her and died. Sometime after I had that dream, I told her I would die for her, knowing that as I did so, she still hated me.

I am so glad that you have reached a place in your life that you have been able to mentally divorce yourself from her. It's a process that we all must go through in our own time and in our own way. You have to learn to let go. Yes, ryanh does share some wonderful advice and it is very useful for us to each share our own advice to help each other through.

Sometimes the more you push the harder she will resist your pleas. She'll actually make you out to be the nutty one. My ex did and is still doing this as he is unable to mentally divorce me. My situation was a bit different because he was very dependent on me. He could not function without me because I kept everything moving and on track. Whereas he couldn't move in a forward direction at all. A simple decision was a painful process which would ultimately turn into an argument. I can completely relate to what you say about never experiencing what we always talk about in church. I have so desperately wanted to have that eternal love. A covenant that we make together with HF. A relationship that when I fall short at times I know he's there to help, and those times when he falls short I would be there to carry to the load and help him through. For me the load was carried by me completely. I pray that each of us with in time meet someone who fulfills that desire we have to find such eternal love.

I would like to give you some very blunt advice and I truly hope you don't mind. When your soon-to-be ex has shown such disregard for you and such hate never show that you are weak for her. I know this seems harsh but when you tell her about this dream she is probably thinking even less favorable things about you. By you strengthening your inner self you show her that you have moved on with your life. This will help you to continue forward instead of standing in the same place never growing into your own self. Don't hang on to someone who doesn't share the same emotionally deep feelings that you have. I can almost guarantee that she tells her family about this stuff you are saying/doing and it's not painting you in a good picture. It's hard I can imagine as a man to lose your wife and your children. Must be like a shot right in the heart but you have to let it all go. All you end up doing is mentally torturing yourself. You have to get to a point to let it go and open your heart to the possibilities.

It wouldn't surprise me a bit if you told me you know what I'm talking about, how it feels to bind yourself that intensely to another person, and spend 14 years denying to yourself that they don't love you. How it feels to tell yourself all that time that the person you fell in love with is the real her/him, and this hateful, neglectful person who consistently rejects you, who has little but contempt for you, is only an aberration that will someday go away and be replaced by that sweet person who knelt with you at an altar in the Temple and pledged an oath before God and angels to love you, cherish you, and stand beside you for eternity, from that day forward. I bet you know what I'm talking about.

It's very painful to live all those years loving someone and sacrificing your all only to get slapped in the face by the reality. To go through boxes of memorabilia and him not in anyway feeling the slightest emotion to the past happiness that once was. To read cards that show that once there was a strong love to only find that they are only words no longer having meaning. It's sad. So what is one to do? I'll tell you what I did. I sat on my back patio one night and burnt them all. For me I had to separate myself from those painful memories that only seemed to send me spiraling backwards to a very ugly place. How am I to open my heart to someone again if I can not rid myself of the pain that so recently had torn my soul into peaces.

I'm thankful that at least my soon to be ex-wife is a member of the Church, and is at least trying in her own strange way to live the Gospel. Of course, I don't know where she got the idea that thumbing your nose at the Priesthood was okay, that leaving someone and putting over 1300 miles in between him and his family is okay, just because she can't manage to cut the umbilical cord. At least she isn't running down my faith the way yours is. I'm glad I don't have to deal with that on top of those feelings you have of being abandoned or punished by Heavenly Father. I know this doesn't change anything for you, but I'm reminded of David W. Patten's last words (paraphrased): "Whatever else you do in all your life, never deny the faith.

My question to you would be did she always thumb her nose at the Priesthood? It's a horrible thing when a spouse disrespects their husband/wife in the relationship and the role that they have been called to fill. As a mother and wife I found it was my calling to nurture and give love to the family. The constant stability and love only a wife can bring into a home. Those few times I got to be a stay at home wife/mom was the most rewarding in my life! Being able to spend time with the children after school, getting their homework done, home cooked meal every night, dinner together as a family, and having everything ready when he came home. The sad thing is that in all the 12 years he never appreciated it. This takes a toll on you after years and years. To work so hard to make him happy yet he doesn't see value in what you are doing. I look forward to a day when I can be with someone who appreciates what I contribute to the relationship as much as I appreciate his contribution.

I have to keep reminding myself that it doesn't make me a failure. I held on for over 13 years, being the only one in love, the only one interested in making it work. The moment I made a conscious decision to stop carrying the full weight of my unhealthy marriage on my shoulders, all by myself, I immediately noticed that she did not pick up any of the slack. It simply fell to the ground in ruin. She didn't and doesn't care. If it had not been for my commitment, it would have happened years ago. I did not fail my wife or my marriage. My wife failed me. I'm not perfect and I've got my flaws, but when I'm thinking clearly, I don't blame myself for this. It's not pride, mind you. It's the Holy Spirit consoling and comforting me, confirming the truth to me that others have told me: I was a good husband. I did not deserve to be abandoned by my wife, for her to take my children away from me and use them to blackmail me into making the lives of me and my children even more like nothing other than a means to her selfish interests.

I can completely agree with what you are saying about carrying the load. This was my entire marriage trying to keep things afloat as he quickly kept letting the air out of the raft. I firmly believe that when you are married you have to be there to pick up the load when the other is not able to. Sometimes life throws us a loop and we have to help each other to get through it. You make a covenant with HF that you will be there through it all and help each other. BUT one spouse can't carry the entire load for the entire marriage! There has to be a partnership... two people working together in their marriage. No one deserves to be abandoned but don't think of it that way. You deserve to have happiness in your life. Continue to do right in your life and you will be blessed.

Even though in some ways you're showing me the flip side of my own coin, I have seen from the posts of yours that I've read here and elsewhere that you have known suffering. While I can't make your tears any less, please know that at least I can empathize with much of your pain. I find myself wishing the Church could teach people like me how to better know when you've found the right one. I was misled by a temporary and unstable emotional state of the one I fell in love with. I was tricked into believing it was the real her, that she'd always be like that to me, affectionate, tender, warm, kind. I fell in love with a vapor, a ghost. I did not understand psychology well enough to know that it wasn't real and would inevitably fade, never to return. There were red flags, but I did not recognize them as such. Falling in love may be easy, but choosing someone capable of a healthy and happy long term relationship is by no means easy.

The most important thing is you give it time. Become friends and really get to know each other at that level. Don't try to sugar coat yourself for a woman... just be yourself. We all have qualities and traits about us that some might find desirable and others may want to run for the hills. It's best you be your true self and that way you filter out the bad seeds leaving you with the perfect one. All I can say is time will tell you if that person is the one. Put yourself in various situations with the woman and see what happens. Don't try to be politically correct around her and try to make everything seem so neutral. Be who you are and she will love you not only for your good qualities but also your bad ones.

There is too much mental illness out there, too many behavioral disorders, too much emotional instability, for it to be as casual an endeavor as it used to be. We often need at least a basic understanding of psychology to avoid picking a real lemon these days. And there aren't many choices we can make with the potential for greater harm or happiness than who we will marry. I learned too late about behavioral disorders, biochemical imbalances, and emotional issues. I could not see the red flags that were there. I have since learned to recognize many of them.

I feel a need to address this mental illness part since you seem to have had a very bad experience dealing with a spouse who suffered with one. I think we all know at least a few people who suffer from some type of mental issue whether it's depression, anxiety, BPD, BiPolar, and others. I as well as others also have experienced a spouse who was mentally unstable, but I do think it's a good idea to broaden your views on this issue. One bad experience doesn't mean that every single person who has some type of mental issue is going to be a "real lemon". I have a friend who suffered from severe anxiety disorder. This disorder prevented her from going to social events with her husband, activities with the children, and even having friends over her house. Let me put it to you this way... she NEVER left the house! Her husband who is very loving took her to a doctor so that she could receive the help she needed. He knew she was a wonderful and beautiful person, but this was causing much tension in their marriage and social life. He was with her every step of the way.

The difference with her was she knew she had a problem... she was NOT in denial. She accepted her husbands suggestion to seek help and get medicated. I can tell you that she is now doing great! I am so proud of her. It is never easy when you suffer from any kind of mental illness but the difference is when someone accepts they have the problem and seeks help for it. Instead of her husband turning it into a "ow great. I don't want to deal with this" he instead did what he felt was right to get her back to a more normal state. There are people who suffer from various mental illnesses that lead very functional lives with their families. There is such a thing as "High-Functioning" which is someone who has a particular mental issue but functions very normally.

I'm not saying that your soon-to-be ex falls into this category as I don't know her and her disorder. Hopefully I'm not asking what you already answered but did she ever seek help? Did you reach out in a loving way to help her get the help/medication she would need to stabilize herself? There are those who are in denial, don't accept help, or get medicated/help but it doesn't do much to help. More severe cases I would imagine are difficult to treat. In the end that person has to want to change and want to get help to be a better wife/mother.

If you don't mind sharing (and please don't feel pressured if you do mind), can I ask you how you were able to let go of him? When did you realize he wasn't the person you married? What happened and how did you know? It took me ages to accept the truth, to see it for what it was and is. The last thing I want to do is repeat my mistake. I think we can really learn a lot from each other. I'm still learning from my own situation. Your posts on Noche's thread have already helped me see more clearly. Who knows? Maybe I or someone else here on this thread can return the favor.

How did I let go. For me it was about mentally disconnecting from him. I was mentally divorced from him for over a year before we separated. In a normal situation the physical divorce would happen before the mental divorce but I've always been emotionally sensitive. Immediately when I know I'm going to get hurt my defenses go up and I shelter myself from the damage he was causing. I knew I had to mentally divorce him when coming home made me want to vomit. My stomach would get so sick and I would try to find places to go (like the market) to avoid having to see him. Conversations became painful and I disliked any chance of a conversations happening as it always went into 500 different directions and by the end of it I was done for the count. One of the biggest reality checks I had was seeing how much he wasn't a man. He couldn't make one solid decision. His thoughts jumped from one place to the next as did his career/business ideas. Going through thousands of dollars and he had no accountability for the spending. His lack of discipline with the children and his inability to be the head of the home not only as a father, husband but spiritually. There was nothing solid about him. He wavered a great deal and I see that as weakness. Intimacy was completely absent and the lack of attention in that area was very stressful for me. Not being able to have a husband who was engaged in the intimacy part was very difficult for me as it is very important in my view for a healthy marriage. There was no focus.

I realized he wasn't the person I married when I realized I really never knew him well. I was engaged to him within only a few months and married shorty after. It was not a thought out decision. Less then a year into the marriage I was already realizing this was all wrong we needed to get a divorce. Of course that didn't happen as he manipulated me into believing he was going to change. He then kept pushing to have children though I was reluctant I eventually caved. 2 kids later and years of manipulation is what got me to this point. The only blessing from this marriage is the boys. It's actually depressing to think that if I had only married the right person I would have had a house full of children and a happy marriage to someone I loved. Ow well it wasn't meant to be.

This past year the doodoo hit the fan:eek: After being put in several situations that caused me a near nervous breakdown and the porno/prostitute stuff well let's just say that I wasn't a happy camper. He was acting very erratic much more then usual and the fear set in that he could end my life and the children. You hear this stuff on the news and I felt like I was actually living it. I hate to admit it but I kept a tire iron between my mattress and box-spring sticking out enough that I can grab it if he was to try something. I hid the gun from him which he wasn't very thrilled about. Living in fear like that for almost a year I decided to get a protection order and file for divorce. Never in my life did I ever imagine I would live in such fear. Never!

You won't repeat your mistake. You know better. There are things you know you will never put up with again. Stand firm on those issues and you'll be fine. Most importantly be friends first and take your time. If it is meant to be it will be. Your love for each other will endure through whatever life throw between you both and you will then see how very much you both are meant to be together for eternity.

Thank you for sharing so much of your experiences. I know I learn a great deal reading what you men write about your own experiences. It does help me to look deeper into myself as well to understand what a man feels.

[its_Chet]

Thanks for responding Mirancs8

Let me just start by saying, and please don't take this the wrong way, I like your avatar. It really says what I can tell you've been feeling, and I can guarantee you it says what I've been feeling, sitting all alone in this house where my wife and children once lived, where their things are still plainly visible in every room, and every room stirs memories that were once pleasant but now are more like knives in my heart. When it gets too much, when fleeing from one room to escape that torture only finds me facing a similar torture in another room, I end up with my forehead buried in my knees, just like that.

Well, thankfully, it doesn't happen as much anymore. I've made all sorts of new friends since this started. People in my ward that I didn't know cared, just informally adopted me into their families and one family in particular has me over every other night to watch Dr. Who or some other show or movie that takes my mind off of my troubles. Did I mention that my new best friend has a background in psychology and gives me free counseling every day at lunch? (We also work at the same place)

I appreciate your blunt advice, but I'd like to explore it a little more, if that's okay. Obviously, such devotion is wasted on someone like her, and I've heard that women in general don't respect perceived weakness. But I have to ask, would a normal woman find that kind of sentimentality to be weak and worthy of contempt? If so, could she be persuaded to look at it as more of a mark of courage and strength? It takes a lot of strength to live through what I have lived through, when you feel as emotionally damaged as I have been. Honestly, if it weren't for my friend the amateur shrink, I'd have taken the long drive to nowhere just to end the pain several months ago. I guess that just sounds even weaker, but the way I see it, you should love your spouse so much that if they did to you what mine did to me, it would affect you just as intensely. At least that's my humble opinion. I know this much, that kind of devotion kept my marriage together for a long time, and apparently it was the only thing that did. It may have been a bad marriage, but at least I know I didn't fail it. When this is over I will have no regrets. I will not have to wonder if I tried hard enough, forgave enough, was humble enough, sacrificed enough, and in short, loved enough. It's like Sade says in "No Ordinary Love" -- "I gave you more than I could give." I know what that means all too well. But I'd rather give too much than not enough. I don't believe in quitting, especially in marriage. In fact, I never would have filed for divorce if it wasn't the only way to keep from losing my children. Going into that attorney's office was the hardest thing I've ever had to do, the last thing I ever wanted. I would rather have died. It felt worse than death. My mother in law, a widow, tried to tell me she knew what I'm going through. I told her that when she passes through the veil, she will get back what she has lost. I, on the other hand, will not. I have lost the only woman I ever had children with, lived with, shared my heart, body, and soul with. That is lost forever, and in July it will become official. We will face each other in court, and she has already made it clear she is going to fight dirty and ruthlessly.

So I just have to ask, wouldn't a normal woman appreciate that kind of devotion? See, I'm a codependent, and I know it, and I try to control it, but I've also accepted that there's a certain level of "clingy-ness" about me that I just can't change. I might be able to limit it, but never completely get rid of it, I believe. I just have to know, does that make me pathetic? I have no doubt my wife despises me, but I want to believe that's her problem, not mine.

To me, there is only one way to see that dream I mentioned. Honor. To be willing to die for something is to honor it. To be willing to die for someone is to love them. To be willing to die for someone who hates you is unconditional love. I'm glad I loved her that much. I'd forever doubt myself had I not.

Wait a minute, I'm trying to be supportive of you, Mirancs8. Enough about me.

Let me salute you for your dedication to your role as mother and wife. I can see that you certainly tried to make your marriage work. I applaud you for doing what you had to do to move on in your life, when you burnt those old letters. It must have been difficult though. Didn't you feel like you were destroying the only trace of the man you fell in love with? I mean, he became this other person you couldn't relate to, who made your life miserable, and all you had to remember the man who had won your heart was the letters and things from that time, am I right? Must have felt like burning the letters was getting rid of the good man, and of course the bad man is still around. That's kind of how I look at my old letters to and from my wife. I gathered them all up into one box and plan to hide it somewhere. It's like I'm keeping that beautiful, sweet, loving girl I fell in love with so long ago alive, in a way. But of course, she's gone and won't be coming back. It's more like a memorial, I guess. You probably saw your old things in a different way though, right? How did you feel when you burned them? How did you reach the decision to do so?

I didn't mean to disparage all people with emotional problems or behavioral disorders. It's just that I've had my heart broken by two different women and they both suffered from clinical depression (among other issues). I just can't go down that road again. I've been burned too many times, too severely. But you make a good point about a person's willingness to deal with their own issues. I remember going to marriage counseling with my wife. She'd be rude to me on the way there and back, but while we were there she put on a nice face. I believe she approached her individual counseling the same way. I believe she has Borderline Personality Disorder, but she has yet to be diagnosed. I believe this is because she does not open up to her psychiatrist. She also has a knack for finding physicians who don't take her seriously, who dismiss her complaints and fail to diagnose real problems, or misdiagnose them. Maybe it's because she doesn't communicate well. But essentially, she seems to be stuck in a pattern of seeking treatment for one ailment or another (or at least appearing to), and never getting better. Specifically, with her emotional and behavioral issues, she doesn't want to accept that she isn't "normal", and beyond that, she's a quitter. Maybe someone else could pull it together and not make their family suffer for their imbalances and such, but not her.

Again, I salute you for the effort you put into making your marriage work. Obviously, you did not just throw in the towel because it stopped being as fun as it was when you were courting.