Question about The Book Of Mormon

[truthseeker2083]

Hello everyone,

I have been an independent reader of the Book of Mormon for a few years now, and my curiosity has gotten the better of me. There are two passages that my mind cannot fully comprehend as being supportive of one another. I love reading the Book of Mormon, but this has always been a sort of stumbling block to me.

The first of these passages is Alma 31, where Alma goes to the Zoramites and finds the Rameumptom. The Zoramites offer the same prayer and Alma grieved at the sight. There was no spirit in those prayers when they were just a tradition.

Now, to the part I can't explain to myself. In Moroni 4 and 5 (and D&C 20), there are clear instructions on what to pray over Sacrament. How do these passages not conflict with each other is my question. I've thought and prayed about it, but I'm no closer to resolving this as I was when I began.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Jenamarie]

Hello everyone,

I have been an independent reader of the Book of Mormon for a few years now, and my curiosity has gotten the better of me. There are two passages that my mind cannot fully comprehend as being supportive of one another. I love reading the Book of Mormon, but this has always been a sort of stumbling block to me.

The first of these passages is Alma 31, where Alma goes to the Zoramites and finds the Rameumptom. The Zoramites offer the same prayer and Alma grieved at the sight. There was no spirit in those prayers when they were just a tradition.

Now, to the part I can't explain to myself. In Moroni 4 and 5 (and D&C 20), there are clear instructions on what to pray over Sacrament. How do these passages not conflict with each other is my question. I've thought and prayed about it, but I'm no closer to resolving this as I was when I began.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Well, one difference I see is that one is from God (the Sacrament prayer) and one is from man. Also, the prayers of the Zoramites was full of blasphemy (there will be no Christ) and pride (we're so glad we're not like those other people), whereas the Sacramental prayer is one of humble supplication to the Lord.

[Connie]

The sacramental prayers are prayers for an ordinance. Huge difference from personal prayer.

The sacramental prayers have been revealed by the Lord. These prayers contain covenants and a promise (see D&C 20:77, 79). We covenant to take upon us the name of Jesus Christ and keep His commandments. We eat the broken bread in remembrance of His body. We drink the water in remembrance of His blood that was shed for us. And we witness that we will always remember Him. The promise: we will always have His Spirit to be with us.

Sacramental prayers are to be offered understandably because he who prays is giving voice to covenants that others are making. Cleanliness and purity of heart are expected of those privileged to bless the sacrament.

-Russell M. Nelson, Ensign, Aug. 2004, 24-28

[Faded]

Alma 31:

14 Therefore, whosoever desired to worship must go forth and stand upon the top thereof, and stretch forth his hands towards heaven, and cry with a loud voice, saying:

15 Holy, holy God; we believe that thou art God, and we believe that thou art holy, and that {1}thou wast a spirit, and that thou art a spirit, and that thou wilt be a spirit forever.

16 Holy God, we believe that thou hast separated us from our brethren; and we do not believe in the tradition of our brethren, which was handed down to them by the childishness of their fathers; but {2}we believe that thou hast elected us to be thy holy children; and also {3}thou hast made it known unto us that there shall be no Christ.

17 But thou art the same yesterday, today, and forever; and {2}thou hast elected us that we shall be saved, whilst all around us are elected to be cast by thy wrath down to hell; for the which holiness, O God, we thank thee; and we also thank thee that thou hast elected us, that we may not be led away after the foolish traditions of our brethren, which doth {3}bind them down to a belief of Christ, which doth lead their hearts to wander far from thee, our God.

18 And again we thank thee, O God, that we are a chosen and a holy people. Amen.

19 Now it came to pass that after Alma and his brethren and his sons had heard these prayers, they were astonished beyond all measure.

20 For behold, every man did go forth and offer up these same prayers.

21 Now the place was called by them Rameumptom, which, being interpreted, is the holy stand.

22 {4}Now, from this stand they did offer up, every man, the selfsame prayer unto God, thanking their God that they were chosen of him, and that he did not lead them away after the tradition of their brethren, and that their hearts were not stolen away to believe in things to come, which they knew nothing about.

23 {4} Now, after the people had all offered up thanks after this manner, they returned to their homes, never speaking of their God again until they had assembled themselves together again to the holy stand, to offer up thanks after their manner.

Taking the bolded parts one by one:

1.) God is a spirit -- only a part of the truth. To say that God is ONLY a spirit would be false. So alarming item one is this false doctrine.

2.) They thanked God that they alone were saved while the every other person on earth would burn in hell for eternity. A very mean-spirited and egotistical viewpoint, and utterly false doctrine as well.

3.) They thanked God for telling them that there would never be a Messiah. So the very center-piece of the Gospel -- Jesus Christ and his Atonement -- is cast aside as a "foolish tradition." Very, very alarming indeed.

4.) The ENTIRE worship service consisted of each of them going up to the Rameumptom, offering up the same rehearsed prayer one by one, and then everyone went home. Worse yet, they never talked about God or religion for the entire rest of the week.

In the Church of Jesus Christ, there are some things that always mean the same thing, and therefore the wording is always the same. The Sacrament carries exactly the same meaning and purpose each and every time. But how much of the three hour Sabbath Day meeting schedule is given to set prayers? About 60 seconds. The rest of the time is spent with no set script.

There are other ordinances that are the same. Baptism for instance is always, "[Person's Name] I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen." Once again, the ordinance is always the same because it means the same thing each and every time it happens.

The Zoramites Sabbath services were 100% scripted. Same thing over and over until everyone has said it, then everyone goes home. That HUGELY different from 60 seconds out of a 3 hour block of time.

Hope that helps.

Edited April 24, 2010 by Faded

[tubaloth]

Like Connie said ordinance prayers are a set procedure, God has a way of doing things, and those prayers are exact and need to be that way. They are part of preforming God's work. Its not a matter of repetition, its matter of saying things that are required for the ordinance.

The prayer of the Zoramites was not any ordinance, (it wasn't something from God). Really there prayers where a twist on normal prayers.

Really, as we learn, personal Prayers are something we keep to ourself, are humble, and give gratitude. We can see that the Zoramites are pretty doing everything wrong in there praying.

Not sure if that helps.

[deseretgov]

All prayers must be founded in the Spirit. If we truly pray with the Spirit guiding us. We are actually praying what God wants us to pray. So as long as the Sacrament prayer is done in the Spirit then it is acceptable. But it's also possible for a person to bless the sacrament and not have the Spirit. It's not the words that are important, it is the Spirit.

[ztodd]

...

Alma 31, where Alma goes to the Zoramites and finds the Rameumptom. The Zoramites offer the same prayer and Alma grieved at the sight. There was no spirit in those prayers when they were just a tradition.

This part that you said is a very important thing. You are right- they did not have the Spirit of the Lord to sanctify their prayers. Why did they not? Some have already said some reasons- because their prayers were prideful; self-serving. Also another big reason is given earlier in that chapter- it lets us know the exact state of these zoramites -

8 Now the Zoramites were dissenters from the Nephites; therefore they had had the word of God preached unto them.

9 But they had fallen into great errors, for they would not observe to keep the commandments of God, and his statutes, according to the law of Moses.

10 Neither would they observe the performances of the church, to continue in prayer and supplication to God daily, that they might not enter into temptation.

11 Yea, in fine, they did pervert the ways of the Lord in very many instances; therefore, for this cause, Alma and his brethren went into the land to preach the word unto them.

We know that priesthood authority from God is required to conduct meetings after the manner that the Lord would have us to do. Did the zoramites have this priesthood authority? Remember this from Doc & Cov 121 -

34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

Sadly, this is what had happened to the zoramites- and so their authority to do any kind of ordinance in God's name was invalid.

Alma was not only grieved because of their prayers, but also because of their vain ambitions and hypocrisy. They rebelled against God, and tried to justify their actions as being done in His name.

Also read some of Alma's prayer starting in verse 26- it gives some more insight into the state of the zoramites.

.