D&C 132:26-27 Stumped


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The traditional version, of course, is that only the telestial suffer the buffetings of Satan in the spirit world, and D&C 76:81-85 would seem to support this view.

See D&C 138:58-59.

Even if you end up going to the Celestial Kingdom, if you have sins you didn't repent of in mortality, you will need to repent of them in the spirit world prior to your judgment and assignment to a kingdom of glory.

Everyone can suffer a penalty for sins in the spirit world: the only qualifier is whether you repented in mortality or not; it doesn't matter what kingdom you eventually inherit.

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Thanks, Crimson. That extract no doubt applies to people who never heard the gospel in the first place (and thus have it preached to them in the next by the faithful elders - v. 57); do you have anything more concrete applying it also to people who heard the gospel in this life?

What is the purpose for this suffering? Surely it isn't so that they can cleanse themselves (or, as we've discussed elsewhere, "paid the price")--else, why bother with an Atonement at all, if the sinner can cleanse himself? It seems to me that any suffering there would only be of the type that would humble the sufferer and lead him back to Christ.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Well think about it. What does murder have to do with a marriage covenant? Why is that the only one repeated and not the other ten commandments? Anyone can murder but what is the type of murder associated with marriage and procreation...it's abortion. That's why the only one of the ten commandments it mentioned, is murder. Think of the spiritual significance of a couple sealed together and then shed the innocent blood of an unborn child. Now I could understand abortion not being pardonable in the case of someone who does not have a greater understanding like teen pregnancy, or civil only marriage. I'm not saying it's ok, I'm just saying that because of their lack of a sacred covenant I can see God being more lenient.

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...do you have anything more concrete applying it also to people who heard the gospel in this life?

Sure. It's simply a matter of connecting the dots. D&C 19 says if you don't repent you will suffer for your sins yourself.

What is the purpose for this suffering?

Seriously? It's the natural consequence of breaking God's commandments. Obey = prosper; disobey = suffer.

Surely it isn't so that they can cleanse themselves

Of course not. Since when is suffering redemptive? That's the point of the punishment: if you reject Christ's cleansing grace, you will suffer the full punishment for your sins and remain unclean.

It seems to me that any suffering there would only be of the type that would humble the sufferer and lead him back to Christ.

Hopefully, sure, but no guarantees. Remember, we are granted a kingdom of glory based on our works, our covenants, et al. Everyone will ultimately be "forgiven" of their sins (except Perdition's boys), but not everyone will have wrought good works or done the good they knew to do. That's the difference.

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Well think about it. What does murder have to do with a marriage covenant?

Everyone in this thread who thinks "murder" referred to in D&C 132:26-27 is merely the taking of mortal life, is wrong.

There have been plenty of threads on this board over the years showing that the "murder" or "shedding of innocent blood" refers to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, denying Christ's living reality as Savior once a sufficient witness has been granted.

Killing other mortals has nothing to do with the point of this passage. The best David--as a murderer--can hope for is the Telestial Kingdom. It's in D&C 76. No mystery there.

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Can you flesh this out, please? The traditional version, of course, is that only the telestial suffer the buffetings of Satan in the spirit world, and D&C 76:81-85 would seem to support this view.

D&C 132 tells us that if a couple are sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, and then commit any sin besides murder, they also will be buffeted by Satan for a time, and then receive their exaltation.

So, buffetings of Satan are not just reserved for the Telestial. It is for any individual that needs some refinement prior to receiving any of the kingdoms of glory. That is what punishment, hell, and pain are for: to refine us. To compel us to be humble enough to fully repent of our sins, and perhaps to have us desire enough to change that we can merit a higher degree of glory. Alma's conversion story is very suggestive of this (Alma 36).

Edited by rameumptom
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Remember, being called an Apostle, they are still considered ‘prophets, seers, and revelators.’ If any Apostle acting in that office under the direction of the Spirit on issue, topic, or past historical writings, that is doctrinal scripture, written or not. However, using your own assessment, I could apply this same sample to any of Paul's epistles given in the New Testament and not consider any of them as canonized writings or calling Paul an Apostle.

Not everything taught by an apostle is scripture or doctrine. And many things they write in a book can contain both doctrine/scripture and opinion. Elder McConkie wrote that the blacks would not receive the priesthood until the Millennium. Should I suddenly reject all his teachings and writings because, as he admitted, he was wrong?

Also, the Church's official news site explains that there are core doctrine, doctrine/teachings, and then opinions of GAs. All should be prayerfully considered, but not all are binding upon us. While I use the Miracle of Forgiveness as a useful text to study and consider, everything within it is not binding upon me, nor necessarily 100% correct. It isn't binding unless witnessed to me by the Spirit. Or must I also literally believe the Cain/Bigfoot story that Elder Kimball included in it? You see? Not everything an apostle writes is necessarily scripture.

Brigham Young taught us to gain our own witness of everything taught by Church leaders. We are not to be mindless Morgbots, blindly believing every little tidbit that comes out of their mouths, rather we are to study it out in our own minds and gain our own testimonies.

We technically do not "canonize" our scriptures. We present them to the membership to approve them as our standard works. And last I read the Articles of Faith, it mentioned that the Bible is correct, "insofar as it is translated correctly." Regardless of it being a standard work, it still is to be read with discretion and the Spirit. Otherwise, should I believe Paul when he states that women should not speak in Church, or that it would be best for us to remain single and celibate? There is a reason for having continuing revelation....

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Ram, your post reminds me too much of the many church's who don't believe in revelation.

Au contraire, mon freund. I DO believe in revelation. But I believe that a living prophet trumps a dead one. And I believe that personal revelation goes very far in helping us determine what is binding upon us as individuals.

I do not believe that everything written nor believed by earlier prophets was by revelation. Otherwise, there would not have been contradictions and even pitched battles amongst them. I believe that revelation which is binding upon the Church must be approved by the First Presidency, the Twelve, the other priesthood Quorums and the membership of the Church. Otherwise, it becomes binding only upon the individual who receives a witness of it by the Holy Spirit.

Today's GAs teach straight doctrine from the pulpit. It will be binding upon us, as it is found in the scriptures and writings of the prophets. All are in agreement.

But past GAs have occasionally gone off the reservation on some statements. One apostle recommended the John Birch Society in General Conference (reference removed from the Ensign and online talks, so you won't find it there). I distinctly remember hearing/seeing the talk in my teen years. Just because one apostle stated it in General Conference does not 1. make it doctrine, nor 2. make it binding on the membership.

It is for this exact reason that the leadership have focused over the last 20 years on doctrine, and leaving the speculation behind. Pres Packer is very focused on us only teaching doctrine in our classes, lessons, and Sacrament talks.

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Well think about it. What does murder have to do with a marriage covenant? Why is that the only one repeated and not the other ten commandments? Anyone can murder but what is the type of murder associated with marriage and procreation...it's abortion. That's why the only one of the ten commandments it mentioned, is murder. Think of the spiritual significance of a couple sealed together and then shed the innocent blood of an unborn child. Now I could understand abortion not being pardonable in the case of someone who does not have a greater understanding like teen pregnancy, or civil only marriage. I'm not saying it's ok, I'm just saying that because of their lack of a sacred covenant I can see God being more lenient.

Actually, the Church views abortion differently than murder. If a person has an abortion, they can be baptized. If a person murders another, they cannot be baptized in this life, but must await the decisions to be made in the next life.

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Hmm...I thought I stated, nor I believe some of Elder McConkie writing are correct. Any Apostle under the Spirit, is doctrine, whether written or not. If one is attuned with the Spirit would know whether it is of GOD or men. But, I guess I need to repeat myself one more time here. Now, I feel like President Young...:D

Neither did I state, to follow anyone blindly. I am one those would ask the Godhead in a topic, when I feel something is not right. You have seen that many times in this forum. You could be a Prophet, an Apostle, and a Bishop, if it feels not correct, I would ask GOD for the correct answer. GOD is not respector of any person in receiving the lesser word to the greater word.

Canonized, whether we sustained it at a council of churchs or done by membership within, it is still consider canonized. yes! We can play the word symantecs here. ;)

Perhaps, we need to ask Paul about that remark and why the women in that area had a greater voice then the church leaders. Besides, who is running the church there? the bishop or the women? ^_^

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As for David and the insistence that he can only go to the Telestial Kingdom, D&C 76 does not teach that. It teaches that those who murder and do not repent will receive the Telestial kingdom. Otherwise one must conclude that adulterers, liars, and others would also only be able to receive the Telestial Kingdom; as that is what the scriptures teach us.

Repentance and Faith levels are the key to a person's future glory. How much have they believed and repented? A person gains the Terrestrial kingdom for being "honorable" according to D&C 76. That person gains the Celestial for being "valiant." What if a person murders, then fully repents and becomes valiant? Would that person still only receive the Telestial? How about the apostle Paul, who was involved in the murder of Stephen? He knew the 10 commandments as a Jew. Should he only gain the Telestial, because he, too, was a murderer of innocent blood?

I think we need to go beyond the surface of these scriptures, and really look at the implications and true meaning underneath them. Does God and Christ not have the power to redeem anyone beyond the Telestial Kingdom? That is what many seem to be saying here. Personally, I will follow the vast majority of scripture and prophetic teachings, which say that God is all powerful and can save us in his kingdom.

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To be quite clear for abortion: any convert who had an abortion, Mission President will need permission from the First Presidency prior to baptism. That includes encouraged, arranged, or paid for!

Any member who submit to an abortion, pay for, arrange for, or even encourage, may be subject to Court Displine. Special permission from the First Presidency under specific circumstances that approval is granted.

First Presidency, has stated, as far as has been revealed, a person may repent and be forgiven for the sin of abortion.

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Otherwise one must conclude that adulterers, liars, and others would also only be able to receive the Telestial Kingdom; as that is what the scriptures teach us.

If that is what the scripture teaches...

Repentance and Faith levels are the key to a person's future glory.

Only half true. Works figure heavily into the equation.

What if a person murders, then fully repents and becomes valiant?

Seems pretty self-contradictory, but whatever.

How about the apostle Paul, who was involved in the murder of Stephen? He knew the 10 commandments as a Jew. Should he only gain the Telestial, because he, too, was a murderer of innocent blood?

Pretty weak hypothetical. Paul not only knew the 10 commandments, he knew the Jewish law of his day and believed it, and their law (even Moses said so) dictated that blasphemers be given the death penalty. Paul believed Stephen was blaspheming. It wasn't until his trip to Damascus that Paul realized his previous beliefs had been wrong. Again, pretty weak example.

Does God and Christ not have the power to redeem anyone beyond the Telestial Kingdom?

I think that's irrelevant. I think the point is that if someone ends someone else's probationary period before God wanted it to end, then that person needs to have a consequence. Of course God will sort out manslaughter versus premeditated murder in the end, but for the honest-to-gosh-murderers, there is a punishment affixed.

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Works alone will not save a person if the intent as Ram stated in another post is not to glorify the Savior, this individual will be held back. I have met individuals who have demonstrated great faith and live the word of GOD and not fully applied greater work. Being in their presence, one can fill that light of Christ. This is not a clear cut case on how and why the Lord chooses different people.

I have again witnessed those who do the work but only to glorify themselves or in other words, build kingdoms for themselves and not for the Master.

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D&C 132 tells us that if a couple are sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, and then commit any sin besides murder, they also will be buffeted by Satan for a time, and then receive their exaltation.

Are you saying that being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise and having one's calling and election made sure, are one and the same thing?

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Works alone will not save a person...

Don't remember anyone saying that.

The scriptures are clear: we are forgiven when we have faith in Christ, confess our sins and forsake them.

We are assigned a kingdom of glory based on our works, or the works we would have done had we been given the opportunity (desires of the heart, all that good stuff).

Just because someone repents does not mean they go to the Celestial Kingdom.

Everyone will be forgiven eventually (except Perdition).

Not everyone will go to the Celestial Kingdom eventually.

"But learn that he who doeth the works of righteousness shall receive his reward, even peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come." (D&C 59:23)

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Yep.

I can't square that notion with the following from Joseph Smith:

There are two Comforters spoken of. One is the Holy Ghost, the same as given on the day of Pentecost, and that all Saints receive after faith, repentance, and baptism. This first Comforter or Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge, of a man who is of the literal seed of Abraham, than one that is a Gentile, though it may not have half as much visible effect upon the body; for as the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the literal seed of Abraham, it is calm and serene; and his whole soul and body are only exercised by the pure spirit of intelligence; while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile, is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have a new creation by the Holy Ghost. In such a case, there may be more of a powerful effect upon the body, and visible to the eye, than upon an Israelite, while the Israelite at first might be far before the Gentile in pure intelligence.

When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter, which the Lord hath promised the Saints, as is recorded in the testimony of St. John, in the 14th chapter, from the 12th to the 27th verses. . . .

Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face, and he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of God; and this is the state and place the ancient Saints arrived at when they had such glorious visions—Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle of Patmos, St. Paul in the three heavens, and all the Saints who held communion with the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn.

--Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 150 [emphasis added]

The Holy Spirit of Promise seems to be something different than having one's calling and election made sure.

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Are you saying that being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise and having one's calling and election made sure, are one and the same thing?

They are in deed. The Guide to the Scriptures summarizes it quite nicely.

The Holy Spirit of Promise witnesses to the Father that the saving ordinances have been performed properly and that the covenants associated with them have been kept. (Guide to the Scriptures: Holy Spirit of Promise)

Righteous followers of Christ can become numbered among the elect who gain the assurance of exaltation. This calling and election begins with repentance and baptism. It becomes complete when they “press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end” (Guide to the Scriptures: Calling and Election)

When we have proven to the Lord that we will be true and faithful in all things, and at all times, and places, He will seal us unto eternal life by the Holy Spirit of Promise.

3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John.

4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom;

5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son— (D&C 88:3-5)

After this, if we sin and do not repent, we will still pay for those sins like anyone else, but after the suffering, we will receive exaltation according to D&C 132. Except if we commit the unpardonable sin, which is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost - which means that we are willing to shed innocent blood, and crucify the Lord "unto [ourselves]" (D&C 76:35), after having been made partakers of eternal life.

Regards,

Vanhin

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I can't square that notion with the following from Joseph Smith:

The Holy Spirit of Promise seems to be something different than having one's calling and election made sure.

Well yes, the Holy Spirit of Promise is the Holy Ghost, but the phenomenon of being "sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise" is synonymous with having our "calling and election made sure".

Regards,

Vanhin

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Are we to understand, then, that the saints at Corinth and Ephesus all had their callings and elections made sure?

If they received all the ordinances of salvation contained in the New and Everlasting Covenant, were true and faithful to those covenants and were sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, then yes.

If you take a few minutes to read the scripture references in the two "Guide to the Scriptures" links I posted for "Holy Spirit of Promise" and "Calling and Election", especially the references to D&C 88 and 84, I think you will see the correlation that I am seeing.

That is the only way the passages in question in D&C 132 make sense.

Regards,

Vanhin

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I have to admit... I have always thought of the sealing of husband and wife and having your calling and election made sure to be different. (While I accept that I can be wrong) my belief was centered around the comments of calling and election made sure, AKA, second annointing/seeing Jesus during our mortal lifetime in the flesh. There are scriptures declaring those to have their calling and elections made sure being done , and it was NOT during their marraiges. That is why I have always had the distinction in my mind.

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I have to admit... I have always thought of the sealing of husband and wife and having your calling and election made sure to be different. (While I accept that I can be wrong) my belief was centered around the comments of calling and election made sure, AKA, second annointing/seeing Jesus during our mortal lifetime in the flesh. There are scriptures declaring those to have their calling and elections made sure being done , and it was NOT during their marraiges. That is why I have always had the distinction in my mind.

They are different. Being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise is not the same as being sealed to your spouse.

After you have entered into the new and everlasting covenant (all of the ordinances including being sealed to your spouse), and then you "overcome by faith", God will "[seal] you up unto eternal life" (D&C 131:5), thus your election is made sure. That is also called being "sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise".

And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true. They are they who are the church of the Firstborn. They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things— (D&C 76:53-55)

Regards,

Vanhin

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