The People before Adam


Moksha
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The point being observed here when using such a word, is noting Abraham's own writing concerning the creational periods and that the GODs had to wait until it obeyed. When they failed to obey, then what word would you give it Traveler? Whether we call it a failure or another masking word, it really has no bearing to what had happened.

Correct me if I am wrong but all accounts of creation that I remember the L-rd pronounced his all of creations as good. I missed the scripture that said woops – this is not working as far as the obedience thing. See D&C 93:31 for that which is not obedient was something not created but existed from the beginning.

The Traveler

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Good afternoon Hemidakota. I hope you are doing well. :)

The point being observed here when using such a word, is noting Abraham's own writing concerning the creational periods and that the GODs had to wait until it obeyed. When they failed to obey, then what word would you give it Traveler? Whether we call it a failure or another masking word, it really has no bearing to what had happened.

Please allow me to ask, where in scripture did you find the idea that the elements "failed to obey" God? I've read the Book of Abraham and the account of the creation. I've read the part where it reads that, "the Gods saw that they were obeyed." But, I haven't read the part where it says that the Gods were not obeyed.

Thank you for your time. :)

Regards,

Finrock

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Guest Godless

If we listened to Joseph Smith, it is over 2 billion years old and built from myriads of inert fragmented worlds. I would use his number for now until a clearer number is given. But, I am not interested in the mortal length of time but what had occurred during the last failed creation. After reading a captured journal entry that Elder B.H. Roberts found when he was tasked to write church history, it seems worlds can fail in their creational periods. Brings back Abraham observance of the creation [read the Book of Abraham physical creation].

For me, I cannot even fathom in dating this world or its material unless I have the original data pinpointing the beginnings of this universe and when those materials used to create the first modeled earth. As I gathered, worlds are nothing more than reuse inert matter when not celestialized. I wonder what age Joseph would give the universe? That would be interesting to see…

Thank you. And based on your scriptural and scientific knowledge, about how long ago would you say the Fall occured?

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10-15 thousand years ago an Ice Age wiped out many species, possibly including Neanderthal man...

As I understand it, Neanderthal Man disappeared around 30,000 years ago. This would mean the Neanderthal's genealogical work will just have to wait.

It is akin to the Nephites coming to the Promised Land, even though there were probably others already there. Yet they were the ones with the covenant with God, so we don't really hear much in the record regarding the other peoples.

This is an interesting idea. The earliest records left by these people are found in rock and cave paintings and perhaps in a building foundation in the Danube River area. The oldest place of religious worship we know of was Göbekli Tepe which was a bit before the agricultural revolution of 10,000 BC.

Maybe Pam remembers the exact dates better ;).

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You have to remember-- the bible was not originally written in english. It is also largely imcomplete... If they had included ALL the original documents in the bible, the bible would be like FOOT thick! And not many people have access to exactly what the missing documents say. Some of them are protected from anyone other than church leaders (primarily Catholic, but a few others too).

Basically what the translators did, was read through ALL the original texts, and decide which storied they believe were the most important, or which versions they liked best. They included those texts in the bible, and stored all the others away. Furthermore, the rest of the omitted texts also included OTHER VERSIONS of the same story. For example-- the Jewish version of Adam and Eve included reference to Adam's first wife, Lilith (she was banished from the garden, for demanding equality). The Arab version of Adam and Eve says that they were both tempted and ate the fruit at the same time. There were severlal other versions too (not just of Adam and Eve, but also almost every other story). But those versions were not selected to be included. Who knows why! I'm guessing the translaters included onlyt he stories that suited their preferences and ideals best. I think that was very wrong of them to do, because now we have fought religious wars and are having tons of arguments based on what those people just "decided" to include, or not include. I mean so it would have been longer with everyhting included! Big deal! Couldn't we have jsut made several volumes, like we do with encyclopedias?

Anyway, the point is, we can't really say EXACTLY how far back bible history goes.

Furthermore, we don't like to explore this much, but... The bible has been re-written, and re-translated into many different languages. Much of the wording was lost in translation, because some cultures have phrases and words for certain things that other cultures do not have. It was not coppied word for word. It was a combination of "settling" for the most similar translation, sometimes "guessing" what the original writer may have meant, and confusion because many of the original cultures words sounded similar, but meant something different.

For example, in Aramaic, they would often use the SAME word, to refer to the following subjects:

Culture

Masses of people

Society

World

Dirt

Property

Land

Country

Nation

Kingdom

Area

Region

Much in the same way as the English language uses the word "Earth" to refer to the planet, dirt, landscape, etc.

Likewise, there are certain words that refer to numbers, such as

"hundred", "thousand", "ten thousand" or "hundred thousand", etc., that have either been lost in time, or confusingly similar to each other. Which means that the lifespans and distance in time stated may be off...

Because of this, many people argue that the human race as we know it may be oder than 10,000 years. And that Noah's flood did NOT flood the entire planet, but rather, only a certain area or nation... When you read the phrases "The whole of the earth" and "all nations", and then you switch the words "Earth" and "Nations" with any of the other words in the above list-- those statements suddenly take on a completely new meaning!

Many believers get defensive about points like this, assuming that those questioning people are "doubters" who are suggesting the bible is "a lie". But that's kind of silly... As far as doubters go, if anything, I'm more worried about the people who are afraid to investigate... The only reason you would be afraid to investigate something, is if you were afraid you would find out it was a lie.

I believe, but I also welcome other possible ideas about the bible's translations. It may be able to reveal even more. If it is true, then digging deeper will only prove it even MORE true! Just like if you were to dig deeper in the the statement that "3 times 4 equals 12".

Edited by Melissa569
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Considering the earth is made up of failed fragmented worlds, you will find fossils of remnants of those past worlds but never a human fossil.

This must surely be one of the, if not the greatest discoveries of all time. What fossil did you find and what past world is it from?

How is it that you are the only one that has ever discovered it? Are you a professional or just a lucky amateur.

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You have to remember-- the bible was not originally written in english. It is also largely imcomplete... If they had included ALL the original documents in the bible, the bible would be like FOOT thick![ And not many people have access to exactly what the missing documents say. Some of them are protected from anyone other than church leaders (primarily Catholic, but a few others too).

Okay - I'll bite. What documents are missing?

What is being concealed by the Catholic Church and is your hat made out of tin foil or aluminum foil?

Basically what the translators did, was read through ALL the original texts, and decide which storied they believe were the most important, or which versions they liked best.

I'll bite again. What translators who had access to "ALL the original texts" are you referring to?

They included those texts in the bible, and stored all the others away. Furthermore, the rest of the omitted texts also included OTHER VERSIONS of the same story. For example-- the Jewish version of Adam and Eve included reference to Adam's first wife, Lilith (she was banished from the garden, for demanding equality).

You are aware that the Torah is Jewish aren't you?

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Okay - I'll bite. What documents are missing?

What is being concealed by the Catholic Church and is your hat made out of tin foil or aluminum foil?

I'll bite again. What translators who had access to "ALL the original texts" are you referring to?

You are aware that the Torah is Jewish aren't you?

I think it's pretty obvious that she's referring to the apocrypha, the volumes of texts that weren't canonized into scripture. Whether or not the Catholic Church is deliberately concealing these texts is another matter, and frankly quite doubtful considering that you can find a lot of it online.

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Good evening Snow. Thank you for responding to my post. :)

Backwards religious ideology vs science.

This narrows it down a bit.

Do you mind being a bit more specific? I mean, what constitutes "backwards religious ideology" could be anything and is largely subjective. What specifically did you have in mind as being "backwards religious ideology"?

Science constitutes a broad category of professions of all types. What specifically are the things you believe are factual that science dictates that is supposedly contradictory to the "backwards religious ideology"?

Thank you for your time.

Regards,

Finrock

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You have to remember-- the bible was not originally written in english. It is also largely imcomplete... If they had included ALL the original documents in the bible, the bible would be like FOOT thick! And not many people have access to exactly what the missing documents say. Some of them are protected from anyone other than church leaders (primarily Catholic, but a few others too).

You have some interesting ideas Melissa. My understanding is very different:

Firstly it's true some documents have been left out of the Bible, but I doubt there were enough of them to make the Bible a foot thick! (Or maybe that was hyperbole on your part.) In fact the earliest King James Bibles contained many of these Apocryphal books, which were placed between the Old and New Testaments:

* 1 Esdras

* 2 Esdras

* Tobit

* Judith

* "The Rest of Esther"

* Wisdom

* Ecclesiasticus

* Baruch and the Epistle of Jeremy

* Song of the Three Children (Daniel 3:24-90)

* Story of Susanna (Daniel 13)

* Bel and the Dragon (Daniel 14)

* Prayer of Manasses

* 1 Maccabees

* 2 Maccabees

There are other books too, such as the Books of Enoch and Jubilees (which has a much longer version of the Adam and Eve story). There are also many documents dating from the early Church, including the Apocalypse of Peter (an early rival to Revalations) and the Gospel of Mary. All these books are available, and none are protected "for use by church leaders only".

Also, I don't think you can apply the "multiple-translation-Chinese-whispers" argument to the Bible quite as strongly as you do. The modern texts of the Bible are not "translations of translations of translations, passing through many languages". They are translated directly from the Greek and Hebrew into English. (Prior to Vatican II, Catholic Bibles were translated from Latin (St. Jerome's Vulgate) so there were then 2 layers of translation.)

However, it's true (as you rightly point out) that many Hebrew and Greek words don't have exact English equivalents, and there is also the possibility of errors of "transmission". (That's principally what the "King James Only" movement has against the "older" texts such as the Vaticanus and Siniaticus.)

I mean no disrespect, Melissa. I'm no Biblical scholar, so I may have got a few points wrong. But I'm pretty sure the Bible is more reliable than you think.

Edited by Jamie123
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Good evening Snow. Thank you for responding to my post. :)

This narrows it down a bit.

Do you mind being a bit more specific? I mean, what constitutes "backwards religious ideology" could be anything and is largely subjective. What specifically did you have in mind as being "backwards religious ideology"?

Science constitutes a broad category of professions of all types. What specifically are the things you believe are factual that science dictates that is supposedly contradictory to the "backwards religious ideology"?

Thank you for your time.

Regards,

Finrock

Must you hash this all out. Can't you just intuit it and be done with it?

I am referring to people who believe in a young earth or that Adam lived some 7000 years ago prior to whose existence there lived no pre-adamic humans. By science I mean that which is accepted as disproving all that except by those you place ideology ahead of science and either through ignorance, dishonesty or or dishonest ignorance maintain that there is no such science. It is not worth arguing with such types and they respond neither to logic nor knowledge, only ideology. They merely parrot back rote challenges gleamed from the web.

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I think it's pretty obvious that she's referring to the apocrypha, the volumes of texts that weren't canonized into scripture. Whether or not the Catholic Church is deliberately concealing these texts is another matter, and frankly quite doubtful considering that you can find a lot of it online.

I don't think so. She referred to texts that, if included, would make the Bible 4 or 5 times larger than it is. The apocrypha makes a bible only a small fraction larger and the apocrypha is already included in more bibles than it is not.

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Hey, I watched Demons and Angels, I saw all the stuff they limit access to. That movie was real wasn't it?

Straight from the vatican library:

BAV - Vatican Library

They do have secret archives, archives they have specifically limited access to. In this case, they limit access to professionals who know how to handle ancient, irreplaceable manuscripts. You also are not allowed to make photocopies.

I would like to read their ancient manuscripts, but I recognize they don't want my chocolate stained mitts all over their priceless books. There is no doubt that the vast archives contain gems long lost, simply because nobody has read them in centuries. Sad. I have no doubt we could learn a lot from them.

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This must surely be one of the, if not the greatest discoveries of all time. What fossil did you find and what past world is it from?

How is it that you are the only one that has ever discovered it? Are you a professional or just a lucky amateur.

Did Joseph Smith go out and dig up any fossil of the past in describing ‘what was?’ Did Abraham? Did Moses? None of them but how did they know what had happened? I am sure Snow; you know how it is done.

Since it was covered over from the last round, I would opt, what the world gives the animal kingdom the term dinos. Nevertheless, you will not find any human skeleton that came or was left from the creation. If you don’t believe it, it is a matter of understanding the principle of resurrection.

In understanding the past, who do you think is the greatest instructor? We still need to be immersed with science, but spend more time in listening to the Spirit in seeking the truths of the past.

You know, it is becoming quite common among the world and members in the church to pay more attention to fables started by man than seeking truths. One good example, specific group of individuals in wasting energy in the search of plates of Nephites. What they failed to realize, all of those plates, were carried out of the land (Mesoamerica) and relocated in North America. But hey! But according to one of the group leaders, they think they know better. So be it then. Good luck but you are looking in the wrong location. What is a failure point here, is not listening to the Spirit. Neither will they find it in North America unless the Lord commands it. This is given to that Seer that will be raised in the church at the last days to complete the last translation and others will assist him, with other plates [civic, Jaredites, Lamanites, and others who were brought into the land by the hand of GOD].

Now, what is a professional? Did the Lord have an academic degree? ^_^

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Source please? I've never heard that idea attributed to JS.

Joseph Smith stated the earth was 2.555 billion years old. He did not receive this from revelation, but learned it from his Hebrew instructor Seixas. Some early Jewish Kabbalah beliefs have the earth at that age.

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