The People before Adam


Moksha
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I don't think so. She referred to texts that, if included, would make the Bible 4 or 5 times larger than it is. The apocrypha makes a bible only a small fraction larger and the apocrypha is already included in more bibles than it is not.

If one were to include all of the writings found at Qumran (Dead Sea Scrolls) or the Nag Hammadi (Gnostic writings), the Bible WOULD be more than a foot thick.

And it still would not include all of the books that at one time were considered sacred, such as the Shepherd of Hermas.

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Concerning what Ram gave, it is found in “The Answer,” Times and Seasons 5:758

What Joseph Smith stated about this earth formation is found in 'Words of Joseph Smith', p 60 [January 5, 1841]

"This earth was organized or formed out of other planets which were broken up and remodleded and made the one on which we live."

Edited by Hemidakota
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Forgive me but i didnt read the whole thread. But Im new here and wanted to contribute.

First off the world didnt exist 194,000 years ago so there couldnt have been any humans on Earth.

Secondly, there were no one before Adam. Adam was the first sinner and that is when God put the curse over all creation causing death. If there were people before Adam they had to have died because they werent around when Adam came to be. So death before sin cant happen. If it did happen, the whole entire Bible is fake and Christ died in vain.

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Guest Godless

First off the world didnt exist 194,000 years ago so there couldnt have been any humans on Earth.

:huh:

Secondly, there were no one before Adam. Adam was the first sinner and that is when God put the curse over all creation causing death. If there were people before Adam they had to have died because they werent around when Adam came to be. So death before sin cant happen. If it did happen, the whole entire Bible is fake and Christ died in vain.

What if humans/hominids before Adam were incapable of sin due to a lower level of cognitive development? Did homo erectus possess the mental capacity for sin? If not, then I don't see how he interferes with your God's plan.

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Forgive me but i didnt read the whole thread. But Im new here and wanted to contribute.

First off the world didnt exist 194,000 years ago so there couldnt have been any humans on Earth.

Secondly, there were no one before Adam. Adam was the first sinner and that is when God put the curse over all creation causing death. If there were people before Adam they had to have died because they werent around when Adam came to be. So death before sin cant happen. If it did happen, the whole entire Bible is fake and Christ died in vain.

If we are going to have science based on evidence rather than interpretations of ancient texts then you will find such science completely at odds with such religion. This leaves us with only one of two possible conclusions. Ether the interpretations of ancient texts do not represent truth or G-d is a very cleaver deceiver that would deliberately create a world in deceptions and lies that in every way measurable indicates that it is much older than it really is.

This may seem harsh concerning your opinion but I am challenging you to think about your post and defend your ideas – hopefully with something I have missed and not considered.

The Traveler

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Good morning Snow! I do hope your day has started out well. :)

Must you hash this all out.

I do not need to hash it out any more than I need to take part in a discussion on a forum. But, I am taking part in a dicussion forum and if I am going to understand a perspective then I do need the other party to provide an explanation of their point when it isn't clear and precise. I'm asking you to clarify your position because I'm interested in knowing what you mean and what you believe.

Can't you just intuit it and be done with it?

I'm not sure. Maybe I can, but it is your position I'm trying to understand. I'd rather have you explain it to me in your own words so I can be sure I know what you mean. In this respect I'm a bit baffled by your questions. I mean, why the reluctance to explain vague and ambigious statements so that your position can be understood better?

In any event, your post did provide a bit more detail as to what you mean and I do thank you for taking the time to explain it to me despite your seeming reluctance to do so. That is kind of you. :)

I am referring to people who believe in a young earth or that Adam lived some 7000 years ago prior to whose existence there lived no pre-adamic humans. By science I mean that which is accepted as disproving all that except by those you place ideology ahead of science and either through ignorance, dishonesty or or dishonest ignorance maintain that there is no such science. It is not worth arguing with such types and they respond neither to logic nor knowledge, only ideology. They merely parrot back rote challenges gleamed from the web.

OK. So, to be sure I understand, is it your position then that:

1. People who believe that there were no pre-Adam humans are people who subcribe to "backwards religious ideology"?

2. Science proves that there were pre-Adam humans, therefore anyone who rejects science in this matter is either, a) ignorant, b) dishonest, or c) dishonestly ignorant?

Did I correctly restate your position?

Thank you again for your time.

Regards,

Finrock

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Good morning Snow! I do hope your day has started out well. :)

I do not need to hash it out any more than I need to take part in a discussion on a forum. But, I am taking part in a dicussion forum and if I am going to understand a perspective then I do need the other party to provide an explanation of their point when it isn't clear and precise. I'm asking you to clarify your position because I'm interested in knowing what you mean and what you believe.

I'm not sure. Maybe I can, but it is your position I'm trying to understand. I'd rather have you explain it to me in your own words so I can be sure I know what you mean. In this respect I'm a bit baffled by your questions. I mean, why the reluctance to explain vague and ambigious statements so that your position can be understood better?

In any event, your post did provide a bit more detail as to what you mean and I do thank you for taking the time to explain it to me despite your seeming reluctance to do so. That is kind of you. :)

OK. So, to be sure I understand, is it your position then that:

1. People who believe that there were no pre-Adam humans are people who subcribe to "backwards religious ideology"?

2. Science proves that there were pre-Adam humans, therefore anyone who rejects science in this matter is either, a) ignorant, b) dishonest, or c) dishonestly ignorant?

Did I correctly restate your position?

Thank you again for your time.

Regards,

Finrock

Perhaps I can intrude on your discussion with Snow – because I kind of agree with him. Coming out the religious concepts of the Dark Ages religion and science soon found themselves at extreme odds. In general history has overwhelming favored science discoveries over notions of religion. This leaves anyone studying the evolution of thought with a strong impression that when religion and science are at odds that it is because of “backward” or thinking influenced by philosophies of the religionist of the Dark Ages.

The Traveler

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:huh:

What if humans/hominids before Adam were incapable of sin due to a lower level of cognitive development? Did homo erectus possess the mental capacity for sin? If not, then I don't see how he interferes with your God's plan.

Interesting theory! I'll have the ponder it a bit more :D

For what it's worth, I think God is perfectly capable of creating the Earth in 6 days and filling it with all sorts of things. He is also capable of creating the Earth in millions of years and populating it with wonderful creatures long before humans came onto the scene. Most of the science is based on our mortal observations and how we interpret them (or rather how people smarter than I am interpret them). Until we are told specifically by the ones who actually made Earth, Space, Time, and Chocolate I hold that all theories are valid and have their own merits (except the lizard people, that one is kind've odd).

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Interesting theory! I'll have the ponder it a bit more :D

For what it's worth, I think God is perfectly capable of creating the Earth in 6 days and filling it with all sorts of things. He is also capable of creating the Earth in millions of years and populating it with wonderful creatures long before humans came onto the scene. Most of the science is based on our mortal observations and how we interpret them (or rather how people smarter than I am interpret them). Until we are told specifically by the ones who actually made Earth, Space, Time, and Chocolate I hold that all theories are valid and have their own merits (except the lizard people, that one is kind've odd).

Is God capable to do anything? Of course, He is God and He can do what he wants because he is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, etc. Like I said before humans could not have existed before Adam because they werent living when he was created. That means if there were humans before Adam they would have all died. And death before sin totally conflicts with the Bible. So if there were humans and creation before Adam, then the Bible is totally false and the God I know does not exist.

So back to Godless's question that humans before Adam were so dumb they couldnt comprehend sin. Yes this interferes with God's plan because death didnt exist until sin occurred. So since there was no death, if people before Adam never sinned then they should have still been living.

Back to the original statement about how God is capable. Of course God is capable to create Earth in millions of years but he didnt according to Genesis. Anytime a number is used next to day it means a 24 hour day. "It was evening and morning the first day, etc" This means that Earth was created in 6 literal days and that the earth is roughly 6,500 years old.

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Is God capable of creating something out of nothing?

No. He is not. Not because He isn't all powerful, but that's not how things work.

Can God snap His fingers and the earth will appear, with us on it?

No. That isn't how things work. God is still all-powerful, but He doesn't work contrary to the laws of the universe, which are not entirely known to us, only fully known to Him.

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Is God capable of creating something out of nothing?

No. He is not. Not because He isn't all powerful, but that's not how things work.

Can God snap His fingers and the earth will appear, with us on it?

No. That isn't how things work. God is still all-powerful, but He doesn't work contrary to the laws of the universe, which are not entirely known to us, only fully known to Him.

This is why I want to learn more about Mormons because I just dont get it. The Bible CLEARLY states God created everything. He created angels, matter, atoms, everything. So that would mean God clearly created the universe out of nothing. Could God snap his fingers and do whatever he wants? Absolutely because God is God. If he couldnt do that, then God isnt God and is not all powerful.

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The eternal laws of Heaven...the celestial laws, as you put it. While I think they aren't the same as physical ones, I have always believed, personally, that Father in Heaven is a God of science and order. We just have a partial peek at things, with our mortal, flawed understanding of what science truly is, in the grand scheme of the universe.

It is simply my belief that, when people might say God can snap His fingers and make the whole creation happen instantly, that such an act of creation is contrary to how creation happens, how long it takes, the process, etc.

We know that things on earth are patterned after things in Heaven. As far as our mortal laws of physics go, there are higher ones in Heaven, but I think God works with many laws, both in Heaven and Earth, to accomplish His Plans.

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Is God capable to do anything? Of course, He is God and He can do what he wants because he is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, etc. Like I said before humans could not have existed before Adam because they werent living when he was created. That means if there were humans before Adam they would have all died. And death before sin totally conflicts with the Bible. So if there were humans and creation before Adam, then the Bible is totally false and the God I know does not exist.

So back to Godless's question that humans before Adam were so dumb they couldnt comprehend sin. Yes this interferes with God's plan because death didnt exist until sin occurred. So since there was no death, if people before Adam never sinned then they should have still been living.

Back to the original statement about how God is capable. Of course God is capable to create Earth in millions of years but he didnt according to Genesis. Anytime a number is used next to day it means a 24 hour day. "It was evening and morning the first day, etc" This means that Earth was created in 6 literal days and that the earth is roughly 6,500 years old.

I think you are making an error in understanding - literal interpertations like this produced the concept that the earth was flat and that the sun revolves around the earth.

The ancient Egyptians thought the earth to be much older than the 6,500 years you suggest - but there is no Biblical indication that Israel (including Hebrews educated in Egypt) had a different idea.

The Traveler

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This is why I want to learn more about Mormons because I just dont get it. The Bible CLEARLY states God created everything. He created angels, matter, atoms, everything. So that would mean God clearly created the universe out of nothing. Could God snap his fingers and do whatever he wants? Absolutely because God is God. If he couldnt do that, then God isnt God and is not all powerful.

I read once that the original meaning of the word 'create' in the Bible is more towards the word 'organized'.

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I think you are making an error in understanding - literal interpertations like this produced the concept that the earth was flat and that the sun revolves around the earth.

The ancient Egyptians thought the earth to be much older than the 6,500 years you suggest - but there is no Biblical indication that Israel (including Hebrews educated in Egypt) had a different idea.

The Traveler

I agree. While there are scriptural indications of the earth's time in mortality, imo, not so much for the actual time the earth has been in existence in it's entirety.

I have a coworker that refuses to accept that some Christians understand that the word 'day' is not only a measurement of time length, but a designation of time organization, which we as Latter-day Saints accept the latter, instead of the former, in the case of creation. Because he was personally raised with the idea that it was created in 24 hour periods, all Christians must believe the same thing.

Edited by Gillebre
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I agree. While there are scriptural indications of the earth's time in mortality, imo, not so much for the actual time the earth has been in existence in it's entirety.

I have a coworker that refuses to accept that some Christians understand that the word 'day' is not only a measurement of time length, but a designation of time organization, which we as Latter-day Saints accept the latter, instead of the former, in the case of creation. Because he was personally raised with the idea that it was created in 24 hour periods, all Christians must believe the same thing.

Of course day could mean different things. It could mean 24 hours, it could mean roughly the 12 hour part of the day when the sun is shining. It could also mean a period of time (back in my grandfathers day). Im no expert in Greek and Hebrew and any other languages that the Bible was written in, but I was told if a number accompanies the word day, it always means 24 hours.

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If there's anything we've learned from modern science, it's that even though it is not perfect by ANY means, we could safely say that the Earth and the universe are VERY, VERY old.

That is just by using our eyes and looking at the things around us.

We have many faculties at our disposal, as the children of God, among them is an intelligence. We have the ability to reason and decide, to comprehend and understand, even if it's limited in our mortality. The idea that the word 'day' in the Bible, at least as far as creation was concerned, means a general organized unit of time, makes perfect sense to me.

God didn't tell us that this earth was made in periods of twenty four hours. He did, however, tell us that it took a number of periods of time to prepare the earth for our habitation of it. Science does it's best to confirm this, and when science slowly (very slowly) comes into line in some ways with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I can accept it more readily. :)

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I agree. While there are scriptural indications of the earth's time in mortality, imo, not so much for the actual time the earth has been in existence in it's entirety.

I have a coworker that refuses to accept that some Christians understand that the word 'day' is not only a measurement of time length, but a designation of time organization, which we as Latter-day Saints accept the latter, instead of the former, in the case of creation. Because he was personally raised with the idea that it was created in 24 hour periods, all Christians must believe the same thing.

What did Joseph Smith state concerning a day in GOD's time?

i understand that a day is like a 1000 years to God, but I take this as saying God is all knowing, and can be everywhere. God always was, still is, and always will be. This has nothing to do with 6 days versus millions of years or thousands of years.

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Let me point out something here that may not be talked about or may not be thought of…what we see in the night skies is the physical (telestial) observation when trying to date our beginnings. This light spectrum and speed thereof, belongs to the lesser telestial law. There is a vast difference between what a physical (telestial) spectrum and what a Celestial spectrum. They both work with different laws. Speed for our natural light versus what are Celestial, pales in comparison. Think about travel for any angel, ministering spirit, prayers, and so forth even in our galaxy to the core center. The time and distance it would take for any eternal being to move back and forth. Nor is GOD bound by telestial laws. The telestial worlds are bound to the laws HE prescribed to them. We have already seen this by Joseph Smith own writings, sermons, and to which glorified world that stands next to GOD in governing those beneath it [galaxy trailing arm].

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i understand that a day is like a 1000 years to God, but I take this as saying God is all knowing, and can be everywhere. God always was, still is, and always will be. This has nothing to do with 6 days versus millions of years or thousands of years.

Before someone jumps me for not being clear, the reference of thousand years [Abraham gave] is denoting mortal life...

Edited by Hemidakota
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