The People before Adam


Moksha
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Not just the apocrapha was considered 'missing' from the scriptures.

Well, no.

The apocrypha is not considered missing. It is in most of the Bibles in the world.

The original first 5 books of the OT, were also a summary or abridgement from a well known earlier source - that unfortunately has not survived to the present time.

Who knows how much other material falls into the same category.

Ah, em, well... that sounds awfully, uh... you know the moderators want me to be nice so I can't think of a nice word to describe that thought.

You know, I have spent a fair amount of time studying and researching the Bible and I've never heard such a thing. Since it is so well known, perhaps you can share it with us.

Please?

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Isaiah 40:21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not

been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the

foundations of the earth?

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the

earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that

stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out

as a tent to dwell in:

Nice quote. I just have no idea how it applies to the discussion.

How about this quote from Isaiah 51:

9 ΒΆ Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon? 10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?

11 Therefore the redeemed of the Lord shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.

The ancients believed that in order for God to create the world, he had to defeat an ancient sea serpent first, and that he will have to defeat one again in the last days (God defeated the female, and still must defeat the male). Are we now to believe that God literally had to defeat a dragon/Leviathan in order to bring order out of chaos in the Creation? Or can we figure this out in a non-literal, symbolic fashion (i.e.; Leviathan/Dragon = Lucifer)?

How do you fit this belief, which Isaiah clearly teaches, into the Creation story without totally throwing the story out the literal window?

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Not just the apocrapha was considered 'missing' from the scriptures. The original first 5 books of the OT, were also a summary or abridgement from a well known earlier source - that unfortunately has not survived to the present time.

Who knows how much other material falls into the same category.

As with Snow, I also have to disagree with this. The Apocrypha is in every copy of the Septuagint-based Bibles (or Catholic Bibles).

The "original first 5 books of the OT" as we now have them were written by a variety of authors, labeled J, E, D, P and R. Each one adding different stories or different versions of the same story. So we have 2 versions of the Flood combined together, we have Moses going twice to Meribah to get water from a rock, etc.

According to John Sorensen, it is possible that the source for "E" could have been the Brass Plates of Laban. Whether there was an "original" source from Moses for all 5 books is unknown.

The original manuscript of the Book of Mormon only mentions a/one "book" of Moses, not 5 books as it does now, as that was an assumed interpolation by Joseph Smith later - not knowing that the original Torah of Moses was not in 5 books as we now have. The Brass Plates may not have had all 5 books. In fact, most scholars agree that the Book of Deuteronomy was primarily written in the time of King Josiah.

The OT was not combined into a specific set of books until the Rabbi Hillel, about the time Jerusalem fell to Rome in 70AD. Prior to that time, there was fluidity in the number of inspired books in the holy writ. The Dead Sea Scrolls contain not only 65 of the 66 OT books, but also hundreds of other holy writings.

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Some refer to this earth as being made up from fragments of other failed worlds. Can anyone cite any recorded revelations to substantiate that premise?

Man was made in the image of God. We are all spirit children of God.

I know of no prototypes.

I know of no prototype worlds.

Is there any basis for claiming this world is in any manner different from all other worlds created?

Has not the same things done in this world been the same pattern and scope and tests that millions of other worlds have had to face and trials and tests to face?

Is there any reason to doubt that an adversary performed a similar function to the first man and woman in other worlds?

Is there any reason to doubt that those spirit children of God who likewise kept their first estate and were sent to other worlds must face the same trials and tests that we do?

I ask these things because sometimes I feel we overlook the fact that the creative process is a never ending work in progress. Fathers works are endless. His work and glory has been, is now and will forever be to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of all of His children, past, present and future.

Try this talk from the Ensign:

Joseph Smith also discovered that the Creation was the result of organization. During the Nauvoo period, he continued to speak about the Creation in terms of organization. William Clayton, the Prophet’s private secretary, reported Joseph Smith as saying in 1841, β€œThis earth was organized or formed out of other planets which were broke up and remodeled and made into the one on which we live.” In the famed King Follett discourse, delivered at general conference in April 1844, Joseph Smith presented an extensive treatise on creation as organization. He told the Saints that the word create comes from the Hebrew word baurau [bara], which means to organize, and that β€œGod had materials to organize the world out of chaos … [which] may be organized and reorganized but not destroyed.”

So, I guess there were prototype worlds after all. Perhaps then on these prototype worlds there were prototype men?

You say lots of nice sounding things, but you haven't given any quotes to back it up. Yet you ask for evidence yourself. Can you prove that things are the same on God's other worlds? Doesn't the BoM state that this people is the only one wicked enough to slay Jesus? And in the Book of Moses 7:36 teaches:

35 Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also. 36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren.

So even on the other worlds, the people are not as wicked as they are here. I guess things aren't necessarily the same on all the worlds God creates.

How about a few quotes to support your views? Or should we just consider them as your opinions and leave it at that?

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Johnny, this is bull-hockey. No one here rejects the account of the Creation in Genesis. We just do not interpret it in the same way you do. Just because everyone once believed the world was flat does not mean it is so. It is too easy for religionists to ignore Galileo, or fight him outright, in order to maintain their own interpretation of the data.

God has revealed SEVERAL Creation stories in Genesis (3 are in there), Book of Abraham, Book of Moses and the temple. Each is at least slightly different from the others, and a couple are extremely different.

God has shown how he does things. There is a pattern. The same God who created the world also brought forth the Restoration. The same pattern is in both works. Before Joseph Smith there were prophets and periods of gospel and apostasy. There was a Reformation that prepared everything for the Restoration. In essence, there were "pre-Josephites."

All three of which seen the same creational stories. There is no difference but what the author was allowed to write and what not to write. If I had the same experience, I would seen the same account and as an author, it would be slightly different on word verbiage and self explaining each account what was shown. As those of the past Nephites, especially Nephi, who also seen the end of time (see Revelations), was not allowed to write it. But it is the same story.

In past posting, it is the same logic when our discussions about the β€˜infinity’ wordage usage concerning our universe boundaries. Joseph Smith may have seen it from the point of looking from GOD’s world outward to the edge. It would seem to be an infinite distance. Looking from another perspective on the outside looking in, the universe is not infinite. Who is right? Both are right in this case. Our perception and viewpoint is what we are shown and record. Same goes with the creational play.

Edited by Hemidakota
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Nice quote. I just have no idea how it applies to the discussion.

How about this quote from Isaiah 51:

The ancients believed that in order for God to create the world, he had to defeat an ancient sea serpent first, and that he will have to defeat one again in the last days (God defeated the female, and still must defeat the male). Are we now to believe that God literally had to defeat a dragon/Leviathan in order to bring order out of chaos in the Creation? Or can we figure this out in a non-literal, symbolic fashion (i.e.; Leviathan/Dragon = Lucifer)?

How do you fit this belief, which Isaiah clearly teaches, into the Creation story without totally throwing the story out the literal window?

I was only pointing out that "some" thought the world was flat.

And as far as the "dragon" is concerned, this is a song which

in most cases is allegory.

Genesis is presented as History.

An actual account.

The serpent most understand is a picture of Satan or Lucifer.

He was defeated at the creation and will be for the last time at the end of this world.

The great deeps in this connection is not the ocean but the space outside this earth.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the

earth.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and

darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God

moved upon the face of the waters.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was

light.

Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God

divided the light from the darkness.

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he

called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst

of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters

which were under the firmament from the waters which were above

the firmament: and it was so.

Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the

evening and the morning were the second day.

Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be

gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear:

and it was so.

Genesis 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the

gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that

it was good.

Job 38:30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of

the deep is frozen.

[Revelation 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass

like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round

about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and

behind.]

Job 38:31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or

loose the bands of Orion?

Job 38:32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or

canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

Job 38:33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set

the dominion thereof in the earth?

Job 41:1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his

tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?

Job 41:2 Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw

through with a thorn?

Job 41:3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he

speak soft words unto thee?

Job 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him

for a servant for ever?

Job 41:5 Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou

bind him for thy maidens?

Job 41:6 Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they

part him among the merchants?

Job 41:7 Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his

head with fish spears?

Job 41:8 Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no

more.

Job 41:9 Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be

cast down even at the sight of him?

Job 41:10 None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is

able to stand before me?

Job 41:11 Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him?

whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.

Job 41:12 I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his

comely proportion.

Job 41:13 Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can

come to him with his double bridle?

Job 41:14 Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are

terrible round about.

Job 41:15 His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a

close seal.

Job 41:16 One is so near to another, that no air can come

between them.

Job 41:17 They are joined one to another, they stick together,

that they cannot be sundered.

Job 41:18 By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are

like the eyelids of the morning.

Job 41:19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire

leap out.

Job 41:20 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething

pot or caldron.

Job 41:21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of

his mouth.

Job 41:22 In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned

into joy before him.

Job 41:23 The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are

firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.

Job 41:24 His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a

piece of the nether millstone.

Job 41:25 When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by

reason of breakings they purify themselves.

Job 41:26 The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the

spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.

Job 41:27 He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood.

Job 41:28 The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are

turned with him into stubble.

Job 41:29 Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the

shaking of a spear.

Job 41:30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp

pointed things upon the mire.

Job 41:31 He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the

sea like a pot of ointment.

Job 41:32 He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think

the deep to be hoary.

Job 41:33 Upon earth there is not his like, who is made without

fear.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the

earth.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and

darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God

moved upon the face of the waters.

Note: there is no dry land and no atmosphere around the Earth at this time.

See how it all plays out.

Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was

light.

Genesis 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God

divided the light from the darkness.

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he

called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Genesis 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst

of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters

which were under the firmament from the waters which were above

the firmament: and it was so.

Note: The earth is covered with water.

God separates the waters from the waters and we have the

Earth with the heavens around it.

The waters under the heavens upon this earth

now need to be gathered together.

Genesis 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the

evening and the morning were the second day.

Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be

gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear:

and it was so.

Genesis 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the

gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that

it was good.

Just a thought:mellow:

Edited by JohnnyRudick
After Thought to clearification - maybe:-)
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After posting over dozen instances on the forum, it becomes laboring with repeating the same message.

Care to post a link at least? It would require a lot less labor than telling me how laborious it is to tell me you have already posted with regards to the matter. I did a search and it turned up nothing.

The only place I have heard that "fragments" thing is in Jehovah's Witnesses doctrine.

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Considering the earth is made up of failed fragmented worlds, you will find fossils of remnants of those past worlds but never a human fossil. .

Oh vey!

There's only five, maybe 6 million problems with that idea, but here are a few:

The earth is about 4 and a half billion years old. The fossil record is much younger than the age of the earth.

The earth was formed by the coalescing of space dust particle from giant space clouds. Any structures - like dinosaur skeletons - would be destroyed in the process.

Let's say that God intervened to make the world the way you think - why would God deliberately try and deceive us by falsifying the evidence?

F/U question: Is there a single credible geologist on the face of the earth who believes what you propose?

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Care to post a link at least? It would require a lot less labor than telling me how laborious it is to tell me you have already posted with regards to the matter. I did a search and it turned up nothing.

The only place I have heard that "fragments" thing is in Jehovah's Witnesses doctrine.

No problem...but I never heard it from a Jehovah Witness. Interesting nevertheless.

The Prophet Joseph Smith is credited with having said that our planet was made up of the fragments of a planet which previously existed; some mighty convulsions disrupted that creation and made it desolate. Both its animal and vegetable life forms were destroyed. And when those convulsions ceased, and the rent earth was again consolidated, and it became desirable to replenish it, the work was begun by making a mist to rise, that it might descend in gentle rain upon the barren earth, that it might again be fruitful. Then came one of the sons of God 22 to the earthβ€”Adam. A garden was planted in Eden and the man placed in it, and there the Lord brought to him every beast of the field and every fowl of the air, and Adam gave names to them all. Afterwards was brought to Adam his wife, whom, since she was derived from man, he named woman; and she became his help-mate, his companion and the mother of his children. In this nothing is hinted at about man being made from the dust, and woman manufactured from a rib, a story which has been a cause of much perplexity to religious people, and a source of much impious merriment to reckless unbelievers. We are informed that the Lord God made every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb before it grew 23 on our planet. As vegetation was created or made to grow upon some older earth, and the seeds thereof or the plants themselves were brought to our earth and made to grow, so likewise man and his help-mate were brought from some other world to our own, to people it with their children. And though it is said that the "Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground"β€”it by no means follows that he was "formed" as one might form a brick, or form the dust of this earth. We are all "formed" of the dust of the ground, though instead of being moulded as a brick we are brought forth by the natural laws of procreation; so also was Adam and his wife in some older world. And as for the story of the rib, under it I believe the mystery of procreation is hidden.

Of the things I have spoken, this is the sum: There was a planet created on the plan of the spiritual creation described in the first chapter of Genesis; beginning with the condensation of nebulous matter to a "fire-ball," then the cooling of the surface and thickening of the earth's crust, and the envelopment of it in water; then came light, and by internal eruptions portions of land were thrown above the surface of the waterβ€”"the dry land appeared;" then came the simpler forms of vegetation; then the sunlight visited the earth, and doubtless higher forms of vegetation, fruit trees and flowers and grains were brought forth; then came the creatures that abound in the ocean, that fly in the air, and the beasts of the earth. Not by the process of evolution, but by the various species suitable to the condition of the earth's development being brought from some other and older sphere, with power to propagate their kind, until the changed conditions of the earth became unfavorable to them, when they became extinct and were replaced by other species of a higher type. Then came the mighty convulsions which, for some cause or other, and doubtless for some wise purpose, disrupted that planet; and when from its fragments a new worldβ€”our present planetβ€”was brought into existence, it was made the abode of man, as described in the second account of the creation in Genesis, which begins by placing man upon the earth, and then the inferior animals.

Accepting this statement of Joseph Smith relative to our planet in its present state being created or formed from the fragments of a planet which previously existed, one may readily understand how the supposed differences between scientists and believers in revelation have arisen. Scientists have been talking of the earth's strata, that were formed in a previously existing planet; they have considered the fossilized flora and fauna imbedded in those strata, and have speculated as to the probable lapse of time since those animal and vegetable forms of life existed; and have generally concluded that the age is so far remote that there is no possible chance of harmonizing it with the account of the creation as given in the Bible. Believers in the Bible, on the other hand, have generally taken it for granted that the account of the creation in the sacred record would give to the earth no greater antiquity than six thousand years; and have held that within that period the universe was created out of nothing by the volition of Deityβ€”an idea so palpably absurd that intelligence, despite all church authority to the contrary, everywhere rejects it. ('Gospel and Man's Relationship to Deity' by B. H. Roberts)

Reference Notes:

23. Genesis ii:4, 5.

24. Since beginning this writing I have found some remarks on the subject of evolution by the late President John Taylor, which cannot fail to be of interest to the student of the subject: "The animal and vegetable creations are governed by certain laws, and are composed of certain elements peculiar to themselves. This applies to man, to beasts, fowls, fish and creeping things, to the insects and to all animated nature; each one possessing its own distinctive features; each requiring a specific sustenance, each having an organism and faculties governed by prescribed laws to perpetuate its own kind. * * * These principles do not change, as represented by evolutionists of the Darwinian school, but the primitive organisms of all living beings exist in the same form as when they first received their impress from their Maker. There are, indeed, some very slight exceptions, for instance, the ass may mix with the mare and produce the mule; but there it ends; the violation of the laws of procreation receives a check, and its operations can go no further. Similar compounds may possibly be made by experimentalists in the vegetable and mineral kingdoms, but the original elements remain the same. Yet this is not the normal but an abnormal condition with them, as with animals, birds, etc., and if we take man he is said to have been made in the image of God, for the simple reason that he is the son of God; and being his son, he is, of course, his offspring, an emanation from God, in whose likeness we are told he is made. He did not originate from a chaotic mass of matter, moving or inert, but came forth possessing, in an embryotic state, all the faculties and powers of God. And when he shall be perfected, and have progressed to maturity he will be like his Fatherβ€”a God, being indeed his offspring As the horse, the ox, the sheep and every living creature, including man, propagates its own species and perpetuates its own kind, so does God perpetuate his.β€”Mediation and Atonement. pp. 164, 165.

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Adding more here from p. 281 - 282;

Accepting this statement of Joseph Smith relative to our planet in its present state being created or formed from the fragments of a planet which previously existed, one may readily understand how the supposed differences between scientists and believers in revelation have arisen. Scientists have been talking of the earth's strata, that were formed in a previously existing planet; they have considered the fossilized flora and fauna imbedded in those strata, and have speculated as to the probable lapse of time since those animal and vegetable forms of life existed; and have generally concluded that the age is so far remote that there is no possible chance of harmonizing it with the account of the creation as given in the Bible. Believers in the Bible, on the other hand, have generally taken it for granted that the account of the creation in the sacred record would give to the earth no greater antiquity than six thousand years; and have held that within that period the universe was created out of nothing by the volition of Deityβ€”an idea so palpably absurd that intelligence, despite all church authority to the contrary, everywhere rejects it.

The theory set forth in this writing that before Adam was placed upon this earth to people it with his offspring, the matter of which it is composed existed in another planet, which by some mighty convulsion was broken up, and from its ruins was formed our present earth, at once affords a means of harmonizing those facts established by the researches of men and the facts of revelation. If scientists shall claim that myriads of years or of centuries must have been necessary to form the earth's crust, it may be allowed by the believers in revelation, for there is nothing that would contradict that idea in the revelations of God on the subject. If scientists shall claim that the fossilized remains in the different strata of the earth's crust reveal the fact that in the earlier periods of the earth's existence only the simpler forms of vegetation and animal life are to be found, both forms of life becoming more complex and of higher type as the earth becomes older, until it is crowned with the presence of manβ€”all that may be allowed. But that this gradation of animal and vegetable life owes its existence to the process of evolution is denied. As before stated, the claims of evolution, as explained by philosophers of the Darwin school, are contrary to all experience so far as man's knowledge extends. The great law of nature is that every plant, herb, fish, beast and man produces its kind; and though there may be slight variation from that law, those variations soon run out either by reverting to the original stock, or else by becoming incapable of producing offspring, and thus become extinct. 24

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Account from Orson F. Whitney (July 1, 1855-May 16, 1931) collected discourses...

Earth was created from fragments of other earths.

The Prophet Joseph also declares that this earth is composed of the broken up fragments of other earths; and here again the wisdom of God answers the folly of man. While man stands aghast with all his learning and is tempted to reject the Mosaic account of the creation because the testimony of the rocks as to the age of this planet disagrees or seems to disagree with the inspired record, a single spark of fire dropping from the throne of God kindles up the darkness, dispels the mystery, and sweeps away the sophistries of man. No wonder the material of the earth seems to be older than the Mosaic account would indicate when, according to Joseph, it is older than the earth itself. The broken fragments of other earths thrown back into the mill, ground over and refined and again brought forth. Such, it seems, is our mother earth today.

Here is another quote from the Prophet Joseph Smith, "That this earth was organized or formed out of other planets which were broken up and remodeled and made into the one on which we live"

Edited by Hemidakota
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Account from Orson F. Whitney (July 1, 1855-May 16, 1931) collected discourses...

Earth was created from fragments of other earths.

Here is another quote from the Prophet Joseph Smith, "That this earth was organized or formed out of other planets which were broken up and remodeled and made into the one on which we live"

Modern physics confirms this.

After the big bang the only elements were Hydrogen and Helium. Gas clouds condensed until stars were generated and these stars through fusion created heaver elements. But the only way that elements higher on the periodic chart than Iron can be formed is from the event of a supernova.

Thus our solar system was formed from the remnants of previously recycled stars.

But to take the stance that the fossil record on the Earth came from other planets doesn't make any sense to me.

Then again fossils of neanderthal in no way prove that pre-adamites had any function with the creation of Adam and Eve.

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Oh vey!

Let's say that God intervened to make the world the way you think - why would God deliberately try and deceive us by falsifying the evidence?

Sounds like you would ask to inspect the ion hybridizer of a used 2157 Budgemaster Panda and then kick the floation pads to see if they were good.

;)

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Looking for that "Laugh" button again:haha:

I know what you mean. One item I have always thought humorous for its absurdity is the idea that the fossilized remains of the past have been planted so as to weaken the case of the religious primitivists. If only they could embrace the evidence to help expand their understanding of God's handiwork, then they would never have to spend time offering any convoluted explanations.

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There were humanoids before Adam and Eve, just not humanoids suitable for spirit children of our Heavenly Father.

Animals had spirits before their Earthly existence as did all other forms of creation, but only the human family could house the eternal spirit children of God.

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I know what you mean. One item I have always thought humorous for its absurdity is the idea that the fossilized remains of the past have been planted so as to weaken the case of the religious primitivists. If only they could embrace the evidence to help expand their understanding of God's handiwork, then they would never have to spend time offering any convoluted explanations.

Laughable at best when I hear it also...

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There were humanoids before Adam and Eve, just not humanoids suitable for spirit children of our Heavenly Father.

Animals had spirits before their Earthly existence as did all other forms of creation, but only the human family could house the eternal spirit children of God.

So Adam had a spirit but his mother and father did not?

How's that work?

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