are you kidding?


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I think it is fairly clear that 'school' is just a common term for 'education'. Whether it's public school, private school, or home school.. it's all education. Home vs Public/private is a completely different subject for a completely different thread.

Times have changed also. Cell phones, webcams, texting, etc. all make it much easier to stay in constant communication with your children wherever they are and to provide support from remote locations.

That doesn't make up for actual face-to-face time though. It's nice to be able to know where your kid is, but it's MORE important, IMO, to BE where your kid is as much as possible. That face-to-face quality time is precious.

Because I will expect her to work instead of doing small amounts of cleaning and watching tv when she has no other responsibilities to occupy her?

Have you ever been a stay-at-home parent? I have two children in school, only one at home, and the amount of laundry and house cleaning and errands and school-volunteering and church-calling-fulfilling and sick-kids-to-the-doctor leaves hardly any time for TV. I surf the internet while nursing my youngest, or else I wouldn't be here much either.

And my husband appreciates immensely the WORK that I do here, because it leaves our evenings free to be a family. Instead of trying to do all the laundry and housework and yardwork and errands in the evenings or weekends, they get done during the day, which means our evenings and Saturdays are free to take a family walk, or go to the pool in the summer, or pop some popcorn and watch a movie in the tent in our backyard, or go to the zoo or to the beach. I have time to plan and prepare more nutricious meals and set the table for a family dinner. I have time to expand my talents, as does my husband because he has more free time in the evenings than he would if he was having to do 50% of the housework. (that doesnt' mean he doesn't do any of it, but not as much as he would if we were both working). And of course we're also a lot less stressed, which is better for the kids.

I was raised in a two-income household. I was your typical latch-key kid. (literally. I let myself into my empty house from about grade 5 on). I did NOT want that for my future family, and made it clear to my husband before we were married that I would only work if absolutely NECESSARY once kids came on the scene.

Please don't underestimate the immense value of having a non-working parent. I may not be bringing in a paycheck or doing as much housework as you feel they ought to be doing, but there is SO MUCH MORE to family life than that. Quality time spent with children, BEING THERE when they need someone, having the time available to be involved in their lives and getting to know their friends and helping them with their school work... is all SO MUCH easier if there is a parent available 24/7 to respond to the children's reasonable needs and provide guidance. It doesn't matter an ounce if my husband spent more or less time folding towels than I did. What matters is how much time we spend with our children, teaching them and guiding them and helping them build a sure foundation that they can carry with them into adulthood. THAT is WORK.

Edited by Jenamarie
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That doesn't make up for actual face-to-face time though. It's nice to be able to know where your kid is, but it's MORE important, IMO, to BE where your kid is as much as possible. That face-to-face quality time is precious.

Which is cool and all.. but what face-to-face quality time are you missing out if they are enrolled in public school? If your children are home schooled it's a different story obviously.

Have you ever been a stay-at-home parent? I have two children in school, only one at home, and the amount of laundry and house cleaning and errands and school-volunteering and church-calling-fulfilling and sick-kids-to-the-doctor leaves hardly any time for TV. I surf the internet while nursing my youngest, or else I wouldn't be here much either.

And I think you would agree with me when I say if you didn't have the one child at home your work load would be far-far-far less than it is now. Once again, I'm not promoting working when you have non-school aged children. I'm promoting working when you don't.

And my husband appreciates immensely the WORK that I do here, because it leaves our evenings free to be a family. Instead of trying to do all the laundry and housework and yardwork and errands in the evenings or weekends, they get done during the day, which means our evenings and Saturdays are free to take a family walk, or go to the pool in the summer, or pop some popcorn and watch a movie in the tent in our backyard, or go to the zoo or to the beach. I have time to plan and prepare more nutricious meals and set the table for a family dinner. I have time to expand my talents, as does my husband because he has more free time in the evenings than he would if he was having to do 50% of the housework. (that doesnt' mean he doesn't do any of it, but not as much as he would if we were both working). And of course we're also a lot less stressed, which is better for the kids.

That's great that he appreciates the work you do at home. It is work and I pointed that out with the statistics I posted. Your situation unfortunately does not count.. you have a child at home still, which means you really can't work without putting your child in daycare (which I agree is a bad idea the majority of the time).

I was raised in a two-income household. I was your typical latch-key kid. (literally. I let myself into my empty house from about grade 5 on). I did NOT want that for my future family, and made it clear to my husband before we were married that I would only work if absolutely NECESSARY once kids came on the scene.

It's really good that you planned that out in advance. I was a 'latch key' kid too.. and I see no problems with it. Parents were greatly involved, they split responsibilities, and they both worked. I also feel it gave me a better sense of independence.

Please don't underestimate the immense value of having a non-working parent. I may not be bringing in a paycheck or doing as much housework as you feel they ought to be doing, but there is SO MUCH MORE to family life than that. Quality time spent with children, BEING THERE when they need someone, having the time available to be involved in their lives and getting to know their friends and helping them with their school work... is all SO MUCH easier if there is a parent available 24/7 to respond to the children's reasonable needs and provide guidance. It doesn't matter an ounce if my husband spent more or less time folding towels than I did. What matters is how much time we spend with our children, teaching them and guiding them and helping them build a sure foundation that they can carry with them into adulthood. THAT is WORK.

I do not underestimate the value of having a non-working parent.. when there are children at home to be taken care of. From the hours of 8-3 (roughly) with school aged children.. well, a stay at home mother honestly isn't doing very much besides laundry.

Edited by Intrigued
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So the "debate" is whether women should return to work after their kids are beyond preschool age?

Haven't been following along too closely reading all the previous posts..

That's my position (and the position of many-many-many married men). This thread has ran its course imo.

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I do not underestimate the value of having a non-working parent.. when there are children at home to be taken care of. From the hours of 8-3 (roughly) with school aged children.. well, a stay at home mother honestly isn't doing very much besides laundry.

I don't know how many SAHM's of school-aged children you know, but that is so so SO not the case. My best friend is in that chategory, and she's hardly home during the day because she's shuttling the kids to and from school, volunteering in their classroom, fulfilling her calling as Primary President, and doing maintenance work on their house, in addition to the cooking and cleaning. And then when her children and husband get home they are all HOME and spending time as a family, working on homework and enjoying a family meal, doing family scripture study, and just playing. They're not running hither and yon running errands, catching up on laundry, and taking care of the house.

There is very much value in having an at-home parent when you have school aged children. I'll try to look for it later, but I know I've seen a study somewhere that says teens are far less likely to get involved in drugs or sex or other risky behaviors if they have a parent at home.

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Intrigued, If you want your wife to share your load of being a man and providing for the family, then you better share her load of housekeeping, grocery shopping, taking CARE of the kids, making dinner, doing laundry, doing your daughters hair, and be ready for a wife who doesn't want to be physical EVERYnight because she is a little bit worn out. When you have a wife, and THEN children... you will see. Don't we all say " When I have kids my kids aren't going to ... blah blah blah" then we have kids and think "Wow we were pretty stupid. ignorant. and selfish." Life is a lot more once you go through it. Good luck to you man, You need it.

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Intrigued, If you want your wife to share your load of being a man and providing for the family, then you better share her load of housekeeping, grocery shopping, taking CARE of the kids, making dinner, doing laundry, doing your daughters hair, and be ready for a wife who doesn't want to be physical EVERYnight because she is a little bit worn out. When you have a wife, and THEN children... you will see. Don't we all say " When I have kids my kids aren't going to ... blah blah blah" then we have kids and think "Wow we were pretty stupid. ignorant. and selfish." Life is a lot more once you go through it. Good luck to you man, You need it.

I have explicitly stated (post #48) that all household responsibilities should be shared between man and wife (unless she has non-school aged children). Good luck to you also :)

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I have explicitly stated (post #48) that all household responsibilities should be shared between man and wife (unless she has non-school aged children). Good luck to you also :)

see my husband shares the housework, as well as the childcare outside of his work hours. Children are my job, but he wants them to know who their Dad is as well. My Dad never shirked his childcare or housework responsibilities either.

If a woman wants or needs to work during that time fine, but I find your attitude undervalues your wife's role and what is best for any children, for some women working during this time is best because they need to do it to keep busy and feel better about themselves... But then if she is fine with someone who does not think being a Mother is a big deal and who does not think that actually just having a presence at home is valuable to their children during school time not to mention the difference it makes in his life then thats fine you'll work out, personally I think she would be a fool.

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Here's my conclusions after reading 6 pages of this thread:

Intrigued is naive.

Most everybody else is making too many mountains out of mole hills.

Intrigued has a point and so does all the moms debating him. Intrigued is not wrong just like all you other moms is not wrong.

It is all a matter of WHAT WORKS for you.

What bothers me are the people who look down at SAHMs as "low class citizens" who don't do anything much and spend hours on TV. Even more so the people who laugh at SAHDs! They seem to think that just because a man wants to stay home that he is not MANLY anymore!

What bothers me too are the people who look down on Career Women and think that their children are going to grow up deprived and unfortunate.

If a Career Woman is what Intrigued wants, then that's just fine. He has a point. When the kids are in school, the work load at home is lesser. That is fact. If he'd rather the woman work while the kids are in school and he gets to do the laundry when he comes home, then that's a family choice. Just make sure the woman knows this is what he expects before they get married! Although, he is very naive to think that when kids and husband are out of the house she has nothing better to do than watch TV (tsk tsk!).

If a mom would rather spend her time volunteering in school than working, that's fine too. Just don't pretend that those who do not volunteer in school are depriving their kids of something.

I, myself am a Career Woman. I work a full-time job and raise children. Plus, I go to school. My husband makes enough money for me to stay home. I choose not to. I hate cleaning the house, I hate gardening, I can't teach, and I can't do house repairs. So, I work so I can HIRE somebody to clean the house, and take care of the yard, do house repairs, and give my children the best education. The washing machine takes care of the regular laundry that don't need ironing, I send everything else to the laundromat. Good thing my husband and I both don't mind cooking.

I love my job! But, because I am a mother, I chose a job that is very flexible. I can work from home anytime if I want to - I can work from home everyday, I choose to don a suit and drive to work one day a week because I like to spend social time with my fellow workers. Heck, I can work from most places actually. All I need is my laptop, batteries or a power outlet, and my handy-dandy 3G connection. I can work at Chuck-E-Cheese, McDonalds, the park, the playground, the beach, the soccer field, my backyard... So, unless I'm playing with the kids, I can work while they do their activities.

I don't volunteer in school or bake cookies for bake sales. I would be a fish out of the water. My kids don't really care. But I'm there to help with kids' homework and go with them on field trips, attend mother's day tea parties or whatever else the PTA comes up with.

I make enough money to take everybody on vacations or have my husband take extra days off from his job so he can de-stress or attend the kids' activities - like scout camps and such. My house is clean and properly maintained, the clothes are clean, we eat healthy meals, the kids are learning, and we have a quality relationship.

What I'm trying to say is - every family has their own way of doing things. You choose how to do it your way. The important thing is - you raise your children the BEST WAY you can. Teach them the gospel and love them always.

Edited by anatess
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Guest mormonmusic

For a while there, my wife and I decided she would go to work so we could pay for a housekeeper. She hates housework, and so do I. She'd rather duke it out at a simple job somewhere than have to mop and clean etcetera.

That worked for us until we had a second child.

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If a woman wants or needs to work during that time fine, but I find your attitude undervalues your wife's role and what is best for any children, for some women working during this time is best because they need to do it to keep busy and feel better about themselves... But then if she is fine with someone who does not think being a Mother is a big deal and who does not think that actually just having a presence at home is valuable to their children during school time not to mention the difference it makes in his life then thats fine you'll work out, personally I think she would be a fool.

Being a mother is a huge deal. It's a truck load of responsibility for the mother and the father. Did I say otherwise? As to the rest of your post.. it makes very little sense.

If you, your husband, and your children all assist in the house work after school/work hours.. how long do you really think it would take? No more than 45 minutes, and that includes cooking dinner. You could make the major cleaning a family event on Sundays or something. I've seen it in action in multiple families.. and I can't tell you how often I've heard stay at home moms complain of boredom. The 'housework' part of a stay at home moms life are vastly overrated. The responsibilities to your children aren't. Here are two blogs from stay at home moms.. and I even included one with a small child.

Confessions of a Stay at Home Mom - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com

A Morning in the Life of a Stay-at-Home Mom - Lemondrop.com

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Being a mother is a huge deal. It's a truck load of responsibility for the mother and the father. Did I say otherwise? As to the rest of your post.. it makes very little sense.

If you, your husband, and your children all assist in the house work after school/work hours.. how long do you really think it would take? No more than 45 minutes, and that includes cooking dinner. You could make the major cleaning a family event on Sundays or something. I've seen it in action in multiple families.. and I can't tell you how often I've heard stay at home moms complain of boredom. The 'housework' part of a stay at home moms life are vastly overrated. The responsibilities to your children aren't. Here are two blogs from stay at home moms.. and I even included one with a small child.

Confessions of a Stay at Home Mom - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com

A Morning in the Life of a Stay-at-Home Mom - Lemondrop.com

I counter your anecdotal evidence with my own.

Carolyn Hax - TELL ME ABOUT IT ® - washingtonpost.com

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believe me intrigued Housework has never been my priority in life I have much more to me than keeping the house looking nice, I'm quite happy to leave the house messy:) Actually part of what me being a SAHM does is give everyone more time, my husband has more time to relax because I can give him that, dinner is already done when he comes home etc which contributes to a more ordered evening.

But its not the amount of work, its what is achieved by just being there, and given my children so far have 160 odd hours a week work from me over 5 years, quite frankly a year or two less fraught will be welcome

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I counter your anecdotal evidence with my own.

Carolyn Hax - TELL ME ABOUT IT ® - washingtonpost.com

It's a good read. But it's pretty clear she has non-school aged children at home :lol:

But its not the amount of work, its what is achieved by just being there, and given my children so far have 160 odd hours a week work from me over 5 years, quite frankly a year or two less fraught will welcome

I may have misread it but can you explain in more detail what you meant by 'given my children so far have 160 odd hours a week work from me over 5 years' part. Thanks.

Edited by Intrigued
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I agree with, Anatess. There is no right or wrong on this. Every family is going to function differently. But as long as you do your best to make ends meet and live righteously, the Lord will bless you and you'll be fine.

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I guess I have come across very fast with my words. I hear it all the time from friends and family that what I am doing is a waste. I have seen the effects of being a parent and having a child molested while mommy is at work. (molestation can HAPPEN aNY time) But If I can stop it from happening again, I pledge my life, MY happiness for the moment, and my sweat to make sure it doesn't. It scares me to death. To each their own, and until you walk in someone's shoes, WE really can't say otherwise. I don't need to read the SAHM blogs, I already am one. Ihave been on both sides of the street, a job to me was easier, better and I was able to talk to adults!!! I miss it, I won't lie that I don't. But life is so short and before I know it my kids will be gone. If you and your wife intrigued want to both work, go for it. Just as someone said earlier, make sure she knows that before marriage. Also, I agree with the other writer who said that he goes to work and does his part, and his wife does her part.... different roles but for the same purpose and they both see they love each other because of it. I think that's how my relationship is.

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It's a good read. But it's pretty clear she has non-school aged children at home :lol:

I may have misread it but can you explain in more detail what you meant by 'given my children so far have 160 odd hours a week work from me over 5 years' part. Thanks.

I am a Mum 24/7 even tonight when I was out for a few hours, I was concerned about something and had to check. I took off 8 hours from the week to allow for when Mum or my husband takes 1 or other of my tribe.

I don't get sick days, I don't get holiday, I don't even get a lunch hour. When I go to bed its on the proviso I may not get to stay their all night I am still on duty. Even when my husband takes over he doesn't do my job the way I would do it, etc

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are there REALLY LDS women that think that all they have to do is bare children and keep a clean house to make it to the ultimate blessing?

Women of the Church....where are you?

Hello, Dazed and Confused~

I've been reading a little through the different posts to your first question. I have to admit, it seems you've had a bad experience with a woman concerning her role in the church that has left you reaching out, if maybe a little bit harshly....

Would you care to tell us a little of what happened? I think you don't believe all women feel as you questioned in your first post....so what happened to bring you to start this post?

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...and it should only take a few minutes to clean house.

If you only live in a studio apartment.

What else would a woman be doing while her kid is at school and husband at work?

From the hours of 8-3 (roughly) with school aged children.. well, a stay at home mother honestly isn't doing very much besides laundry.

So are you of the opinion that married women with school age children shouldn't get any down time or hobby time for themselves? Once the kids come home, it's spending time with them, shuttling them to various activities, helping with homework, making dinner, putting to bed, then spending time with her husband. When does she get to read a book? Make a quilt? Shop? Talk with friends? Visit teach? Fulfill other calling-related responsibilities? Knit? Write? Bake? Relax? Go to the doctor without kids in tow?

Edited by Wingnut
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I'm sorry, I didn't have the patience to wade through all of the posts here, so I'm going to make a few assumptions and go from there.

1. Mormon women don't work outside the home.

Sorry, that's not the case anymore. With the exceedingly poor economy, more LDS women are joining the workforce than ever. This is just the occasion that the Prophets have spoken about and encouraged member-sisters to educate themselves in preparation for.

2. A clean house in supremely important.

Well, to me it is, but I'm also willing to get down and scrub a few floors myself..

3. Rearing children is women's work.

Only if you live in Victorian London or Boer Africa.

And that's all I have to say about that.

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Thank you, Dove, but I'm affraid that you have misunderstood where i was coming from. This post started because of a post a read. In that post, a nunber of women were discussing their roles in the church and in life, and it bothered me that these women seemed to feel they were "less than".

I had started another thread some time back, with a plea stating..."don't you know that you are daughters of HF?".

Dove, you may have detected some feelings in my post that I was not conscious of at the time. I have had a bad time reconning myself with women at times due to sever abuse issues i experienced at the hands of women when i was a child.

I want you and everyone else to know, however, that I hold women in the highest regard. I do know the value of a loving and supportive mother in the household, and a father in the same capacity. I beleive strongly in the equal division of responsability within the household and have always practiced that in my own life, even pre-LDS.

I can also be defensive when I feel women are too involved in "male-bashing", whether it may stem from a divorce, or simply some silly femine "attitude" (sugar and spice and everything nice...etc.).

I know this about myself and try to temper it whenever I can.

This post was not about MY seeing women, wives, mothers, in general, in a bad light. It was about WOMEN seeing themselves in that light and I felt that I wanted to say something about that.

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Helllo, Dazed and Confused~

Thank you for your response..... So sorry you suffered abuse at the hands of anyone when a child. I can understand that you would have a struggle reconnecting with women in general at this point.

Just so you know, I too suffered abuse from the other gender in my childhood (I'm female).... Relating to men appropriately myself is quite a trial, LOL.... Please, don't get me wrong, I was not in the spirit of "man-bashing" when writing that. It's a whole different story for me.

I also struggle a great deal with my own gender. I have witnessed so much cruelty sheathed in softness amongst them that I have begun to feel ashamed to be one of them!! But, that's my own opinion.....

How I try to look at it is that it's not about gender as much as it is about the individual person. I like to think of myself as simply a person, before I am identified by my gender~That I am a child of God who happens to be female. I don't know, that works for me more so.

I appreciate you trying to support the female sex, though. Again, I have seen wonderful people of both genders, as well those not so honorable, throughout my life.....Thanks

Dove

Edited by Dove
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My dear Dove, we do indeed have much in common. I want you to know that I did not start this post as a means to bash women and, frankly, I'm not sure how it got there (if it did get there....in some peoples eyes i think it did.).

I, too, came to the same conclusion. It isn't a matter of gender but of an individuals' expression of where they are along their spiritual path. I don't want that to be too intellectual, lol.

It doesn't matter if someone is male or female, each can be equally guilty of the exact same wrong doing.

I beleive that in the entire history of human-kind, there has been NOTHING that a man has done, that a woman has not also done, and vice-versa. It's a question of humanity, not gender.

If, by this post, anyone was made to feel "less than" by me, I do sincerely apologize. All other responses are the responsability of the poster.

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if that's what it takes to get to the celestial kingdom then i'm out. once you've had enough kids you can forget keeping the house clean.

i think most lds women actually feel quite a lot of pressure on all the things we are "supposed" to do.

- vt and not just a visit but some gift or service or "special woman's touch" to everything.

- lessons which also have to have that "women's touch".

- taking care of your neighbor.

- being involved in the schools and other community things.

- being the example of what "happy" lds women are.

- never in a foul mood.

- always pleasant to the kids.

- perfectly groomed and pleasant for our husband when he gets home with a smile and a kiss because he has "had a hard day" and needs our "support". we never have a bad day?

- canning, gardening, perfectly rotated food storage.

- emergency kits that include more than the essentials but "fun" things for the kids so they don't feel the anxiety of being in an "emergency" situation.

- making sure you boys get their eagle and the girls get the young womanhood recognition.

- taking food to the the sick, new mom's, elderly.

- making sure the less actives and the potential converts have little "special" tokens to show we care.

- helping the missionaries by letting them bring investigators into our homes (which comes with massive cleaning events).

- feeding the missionaries.

ummmm i know i'm missing something, but that's all i can think of off the top of my head.

OP--- I think god does see keeping your home clean as a sign of how clean your mind is... But not everyone can have kids, or even afford to take care of them. So that really should have nothing to do with weather or not you get into heaven.

Gwen-- Hehe... I'll feed the missionaries and keep my house clean, but that's about it. Can't do the children thing right now, because my husband wants nothing to do with kids, and we couldn't afford to take care of them anyway, because we are barely keeping our own heads above water.

We haven't gone to the temple, or taken any of those "populate the earth" vows... But even if we did-- having kids at this point would be blantanly irresposnible of us. Both to our living situation, and to the economy. We need to get to a point where WE OURSELVES can finance food, clothes, a home with more than one bedroom, and medical bills, before we go having babies... Otherwise, we will all be shacked up in a one-bedroom apartment together, depending on the state welfare system for everything, and making the economy worse.

I'm gonna be working 40+ hours per week pretty soon here, INCLUDING Sundays, so I'm not gonna have much time to be too "involved". They told us in class at church that maybe we shouldn't take a job, if it asks us to work on Sundays... But... HELLOOOO? Have you seen the economy lately? I live in a county with one of the highest unemployment rates in California! lol. Unless you've got all kinds of in-demand skills, you better take whatever job you can get. Beggars can't be choosers, ya know.

And you better believe I'm gonna be in a bad mood once in a while-- because I'm not a robot, I'm an actual human being, with real emotions from time to time, lol. :D

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