torn between my family and keeping the sabbath

[victoria6]

HI, I'm new on here and thought I'd get some views on a problem I'm facing. At the end of the month my husband and I are going on holiday with all my family (who are all non-members).

Whilst we're away it is my little sisters birthday, she's only 10, and will be going out to celebrate- day out/meal etc. The problem is her birthday falls on a sunday and I don't know what I should do. On the one hand I can keep the sabbath day holy but let down my family, upset my kid sister or on the other hand I can keep the peace with my family and sister but break the commandments.

I'm so torn, my little sister means the world to me and she's too young to put in an awkward position of choosing between my values and her birthday, it just isn't fair to put that on her. But at the same time my husband is clear that whatever I decide he will not be taking part regardless.

Advice would be much appreciated.

[Hemidakota]

What is a greater importance to you?

[Guest mormonmusic]

I've been in that situation before. Some will argue that you should keep the Sabbath Day holy at any cost. However, I think one needs to also weigh heavily your ongoing relationship with your family.

First, I'd try to arrange events so they don't conflict with Sunday, if possible. If that doesn't work, then I wouldn't hesitate to err on the side of being with my family in full participation.

The reason I say this is that I took the extreme approach in keeping the commandments when I was a young adult and it only alienated my family. I couldn't get them to take my religion seriously if I paid them each a million dollars now, it created so much ill will. My parents even called me a hypocrite because I espoused the value of family, but then put them after the Church on the totem pole. I'm also the black sheep -- they never contact me, I find out events are planned and I didn't know about them, and when the Church let me way down years ago, I had no one to turn to for emotional support. I regretted alienating my family by grandstanding (from their perspective) my religious values,.

Now, if you do take my advice, and kids are involved, you need to teach them about the limits of relaxing the Sabbath Day commandment, that it's only due to the non-member nature of your family, and that as your own LDS family grows into generations, the Sabbath Day should be kept among them.

And be strict on it when your n/m family is not involved.

[FunkyTown]

Yeah. Why not have the birthday on the Saturday? Offer a compromise and say you want to take her out then. :)

[MarginOfError]

HI, I'm new on here and thought I'd get some views on a problem I'm facing. At the end of the month my husband and I are going on holiday with all my family (who are all non-members).

Whilst we're away it is my little sisters birthday, she's only 10, and will be going out to celebrate- day out/meal etc. The problem is her birthday falls on a sunday and I don't know what I should do. On the one hand I can keep the sabbath day holy but let down my family, upset my kid sister or on the other hand I can keep the peace with my family and sister but break the commandments.

I'm so torn, my little sister means the world to me and she's too young to put in an awkward position of choosing between my values and her birthday, it just isn't fair to put that on her. But at the same time my husband is clear that whatever I decide he will not be taking part regardless.

Advice would be much appreciated.

These kinds of situations force us to have to balance a number of values and principles that are all good but happen to conflict with each other. On the one hand, we should be supportive of family, but on the other we should keep the Sabbath holy. Yet again, we are supposed to share the Gospel, and part of that is presenting our beliefs in a positive light. Whichever decision you make here, you end up appearing as a hypocrite at best.

The good news is that you can't make a wrong decision here. The bad news is you can't make a right decision.

If it were me, I'd speak with my family, and tell them you'd prefer to do the dinner another day so that you don't have to go out on the Sabbath. But I would make the point that while it is important to me that I keep the Sabbath holy, it's also important to me to be with my family on special occasions. If they are unwilling to change the dinner to another day, then I would still go on Sunday. To me, the important thing is to let them know what my values are AND avoid alienating them through my religious beliefs.

As for your husband...I think he's being an overzealous dope.

[WindRiver]

Where do you eat when you travel on Holiday? Certainly not at home. Since you are away from your home, I see nothing wrong with going out to eat somewhere on your sisters birthday. What is the difference between making your mom cook on Sunday or someone at a restaurant? Yes, you can prepare a picnic the day before, but if you choose to eat out on Sunday when traveling, I say don't worry about it.

If it makes you feel any better about the choice, I know for a fact that some members of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles eat out on Sunday from time to time when they are on the road. This is essentially what I was told by my good friend who dined out with several Apostles on a Sunday when they were visiting his stake to dedicate a temple.

Somebody has to "work" to prepare a meal on Sunday regardless of where you are. Either someone at a restaurant or someone at home. Even if the meal is prepared the day before, some work has to be done to serve it. One particular apostle that was eating at a restaurant on Sunday with my friend, explained in advance before they went to a restaurant that they have found that when they eat at a member's house on Sunday the wife usually spends many many hours preparing the meal on Sunday to make it just right and often additional hours are spent cleaning the house too, even to the point of missing meetings. The conclusion was that far less work was required in most cases by eating out. People have to eat when traveling so they explained that it isn't a sin to eat at a restaurant when away from home.

Maybe you two could pray about it together like partners and come to a decision that is acceptable in the eyes of your Father in Heaven taking into consideration all the factors, rather than making it a dividing issue between you. Resolve to both agree to stick together based on what inspiration your pondering and prayer brings you.

Edited May 4, 2010 by WindRiver

[Wingnut]

The Church never asks that we put the Church first. It always holds that family is the most important thing. Resentment against relatives and against the Church is often created in families (where not all family members are LDS) when members, in the name of keeping the Sabbath Day holy, tell the rest of the family that they "can't" participate in family events.

/begin tangent

I hate the t-shirts that say "I can't. I'm Mormon." Yes you can. You're perfectly capable of _____. You simply choose not to. It should instead be "I won't. I'm Mormon."

/end tangent

[Guest mirancs8]

I run into this a lot with my family because no one is Mormon except for me. Sometimes my mom will say let's go to Home Depot or out to lunch on Sunday's and I usually just say that I'm tired. I've become a pro at dodging her Sunday outing requests. What I've learned to do is on Saturday mornings just straight out ask her what she wants to do this weekend and I make sure we get it all in on Saturday. She is very judgmental so I try to avoid the "keeping the Sabbath holy" line as she is not a practicing Christian.

It's soon enough for you to talk to your family and just say that Saturday would seem like a much better day to do the birthday. Find some type of common ground on the benefits of Sat. vs Sun. for the birthday.

It's tough I know. I hope it works out for you.

[Faded]

I'd say that the most important thing is to let your family know of your dilemma well in advance. If they are just finding out about it when it's time to go out to eat, then it becomes a problem. If they know of it in advance, then it's not likely to cause much of a stir.

If it's me, I'd just cook for everyone. But in my humble opinion I can do better than most restaurants at cooking. Again, if it's me, then I could just play host/waiter/whatever.

It's a valuable thing to maintain the distinction with your family. They'll simply have to accept that you put God first and for that reason, you will not break the Sabbath.

[victoria6]

thanks guys, this really helps. I would definately go with the saturday idea if it weren't for the fact that's when we're travelling/arriving so would not be possible. Will make sabbath friendly suggestions and fingers crossed the weather will be good (but this is England!) that way we can maybe just have a picnic on the beach. Will go with what my sister wants I think, it's her birthday and to force my values would only create bad feeling and if anything push my family away from church.

I just hope I can articulate how I feel to my Husband so as not to cause contention within our family and hopefully have him come along with us as a united family. But then is it wrong for me to expect him to change his view of the situation?!

[victoria6]

Hemidakota: maybe I'm taking this the wrong way but you cannot seriously expect me to answer 'what's more important?' if it was as easy as that I wouldn't have a problem. But it's not that simple. Apologies if I've misinterpreted your question.

Edited May 6, 2010 by victoria6
word omitted

[Nomad]

If you love your family then how could being with them not be a worthy way to spend the day?

I know that sounds terribly glib, and doesn't go into a great deal of theological debate on the issue (actually it ignores debate altogether!) but I think it says something important. A loving and compassionate deity has the time for a child's birthday party I'm sure.

After all, it's not like you're wondering whether to spend the Sunday getting drunk and yelling at the TV in a desperate attempt to influence the game. That would be an inappropriate way to spend the Sabbath.

[Dravin]

Hemidakota: maybe I'm taking this the wrong way but you cannot seriously expect me to answer 'what's more important?' if it was as easy as that I wouldn't have a problem. But it's not that simple. Apologies if I've misinterpreted your question.

It isn't as easy as that, but that is what it boils down to. Which is more important and if equal importance which will you compromise. I'm giving Hemi the benefit of the doubt and assume he was in his own way trying to spark some internal dialog on your part.

Personally I think you are in a tough situation, but all my family would understand why I wouldn't want to go out on Sunday and wouldn't plan anything to begin with and I have a hard time putting yourself in your shoes. Have you prayed about it? I know that's a difficult answer, we all want someone to authoritatively state what is the always right thing to do, but if you take it to the Lord and he guides you one direction or another or even to some sort of compromise such as going but not purchasing anything it will ease your mind if not your family's.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Dravin

[Hemidakota]

thanks guys, this really helps. I would definately go with the saturday idea if it weren't for the fact that's when we're travelling/arriving so would not be possible. Will make sabbath friendly suggestions and fingers crossed the weather will be good (but this is England!) that way we can maybe just have a picnic on the beach. Will go with what my sister wants I think, it's her birthday and to force my values would only create bad feeling and if anything push my family away from church.

I just hope I can articulate how I feel to my Husband so as not to cause contention within our family and hopefully have him come along with us as a united family. But then is it wrong for me to expect him to change his view of the situation?!

Convey your concerns with the Savior prior to talking to your husband.

[Guest mormonmusic]

HI, I'm new on here and thought I'd get some views on a problem I'm facing. At the end of the month my husband and I are going on holiday with all my family (who are all non-members).

Whilst we're away it is my little sisters birthday, she's only 10, and will be going out to celebrate- day out/meal etc. The problem is her birthday falls on a sunday and I don't know what I should do. On the one hand I can keep the sabbath day holy but let down my family, upset my kid sister or on the other hand I can keep the peace with my family and sister but break the commandments.

I'm so torn, my little sister means the world to me and she's too young to put in an awkward position of choosing between my values and her birthday, it just isn't fair to put that on her. But at the same time my husband is clear that whatever I decide he will not be taking part regardless.

Advice would be much appreciated.

Victoria -- if I can expand on what I said earlier. If your family are non-members, then eventually, you want your family to join the Church. At this point, however, they may or may not have a desire to look into it, and they probably don't have testimonies. Therefore, they may not understand the reason for the Sabbath Day commandment, or accept it as a valid reason for not holding the Sunday event.

As time goes forward, there will be other important events in your life, and in the lives of your children that they won't be able to participate in due to Church policy. For example, your family (which I'm assuming are non-members) won't be able to attend their endowment ceremonies or their wedding (or your temple wedding if you're not yet married in the temple). These things can be hard for some non-member families to take.

If I was you, I'd think really hard about letting this Sabbath Day issue stand in the way of a family venture. There's room for judgment on the command of keeping the Sabbath Day Holy. There's no room for exceptions at all on other aspects of our LDS culture, such as whether non-members can attend the temple.

I would avoid setting a precedent of constantly pushing your family aside for Church reasons that do have some leeway in them. Your family, if non-members, are hopefully going to be part of your eternal family someday; I wouldn't go placing stumblingblocks in the way before the really hard things for some non-mem familes to accept -- exclusion from the temple -- have to be dealt with.

If you're concerned they might be surprised you're don't appear to be living your values, let them know this "keeping the sabbath day holy, and also building family relationships are two values in conflict here. I've chosen to build my relationships with you, my family because you are very important to me."

Adam had a similar conundrum. He was commanded not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, but was also commanded to stay with Eve.

Eve had eaten from the tree, and would be cast out of the garden. Therefore, Adam was in a situation where he couldn't keep both commandments. If he refused to eat of the fruit, he would be separated from Eve, disobeying a commandment. If he ate from the tree, he would obey the commandment to stay with Eve (being cast out of the garden with her), but would be transgressing against hte command not to eat the fruit.

I see this as a similar situation, with building the relationship with your family as the better part.

Now, as others have said, if you can arrange the event on a day other than Sunday to everyone's satisfaction, I'd try that first.

Edited May 6, 2010 by mormonmusic

[Hemidakota]

Ugh…eating the fruit and the keeping the Sabbath Day is not the same; or, trying to compare an APPLE to a LEMON. This is simply not so. Keeping a simple commandment will only support her for the harder times to come. Simply ignoring a simple commandment, gives the adversary a foot hold at the door when a person is not in tune with the Spirit. When we learn to strive to live the life of the Savior, it is then we can make that decision. It will only be easier for her then, to heed the Spirit on whether to concur or not concur with succeeding a given commandment. In Adams case, he had that Spirit attunement. Do not think there was no interaction by the Spirit.

Building a relationship begins with GOD and then family. When we learn to heed to the promptings of the Spirit, surrendering our will to HIM, it will be a driven force of action in this life.

Listen to the Spirit is the ultimate guidance when questioning the commandments of GOD.

Edited May 6, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Guest mormonmusic]

Ugh…eating the fruit and the keeping the Sabbath Day is not the same; or, trying to compare an APPLE to a LEMON....

I think the two situations I've presented here are very similar. They have enough in common to be both oranges.

My situation presents two values in conflict. So does the situation in the opening post. Both required relaxing one commandment to obey another. The gospel is about relationships, and in this case, there's a conflict between family relationships and the command to keep the sabbath day holy. Our opening poster will have to decide between the two. Very similar and relevent. Oranges to Oranges.

I'm reminded of something a wise member of the Church shared with me. He commented that you start out black and white on many commandments, but often, the complexity of life and the tangled ball of interests and goodness out there turns the debate gray.

I think this is one of these gray areas that requires judgment. I would support her in either, and let the outcomes of what she decides help her determine whether what she decides is correct.

I also think think our opening poster has a lot of varied opinions to consider, and will have to decide the course of action which is right for her soon.

Victoria -- one thing I hope happens -- that we find out what you decide, and how it's resolved. Some closure would be nice.

Edited May 6, 2010 by mormonmusic

[Guest]

Been there done that. Being the only Mormon in my family, I always lose out on majority vote - Catholics love to party on Sundays. But, I do express my Saturday vote every single time. If it's important events - family reunion, bdays, weddings, baptisms, etc. - we always go. If it's not as important - regular family dinners, etc - we skip. My family knows why. No big deal.

There was a time when the Jews went so far in keeping the Sabbath holy that they won't even heal the sick on the Sabbath day. Jesus clearly corrected this in his ministry.

[ryanh]

I find it very curious that when there are two factors against going out on Sunday, and only one for going out on Sunday, there are so many willing to advise bending a basic commandment.

Seems to me that Victoria is in a no win position between alienating her sister/family or alienating her husband. I don't understand how severe each case of alienation may be. Perhaps the husband would understand, perhaps he would be offended. Perhaps the sister would be estatic to have some alternate to Victoria's attendance at the Sunday dinner such as a 1 on 1 lunch date on Monday, and not mind at all that Victoria keeps the Sabbath holy.

For those who suggest not fully observing the Sabbath, or in other ways try to rationalize that it is "ok" to make others work, why is the concerns of alienating her husband not even a consideration? In my mind, spouses should take serious heed to the admonition of leaving father and mother and cleaving unto one another. No, that doesn't mean that family becomes unimportant, but it does tell us where the priority should be. If this choice of Sabbath activities would alienate her husband in any way, I think there is no contest. The priority should be on maintaining and building her current family, the one that should be first.

Not only is there the competing interests of current and blood family, but then you add Sabbath day observance on top of that.

I identified with Hemi's initial question. What is more important to you? Your relationship with your family, or your relationship to your God? Whom do you wish to please more? Where are your 'eyes' focused - on the past, or to the eternities?

I know some automatically assume that family would be alienated by choosing to do what is right. I have seen in my life, and in the lives of others, great changes brought about doing what is right in the face of a difficult decision. Often, people are impressed, even if not happy about it.

Do the right thing. It will gratify some people and astonish the rest. Mark Twain

Lastly Victoria, go to lds.org and search general conference talks and ensign articles on keeping the Sabbath day holy. You will find lots of guidance from the Lord’s appointed leaders, not the opinions of us here. The topic of Sabbath day observance and patronage of businesses on that day has been very pointedly spoken to on a number of times in GC over the last decade.

[Guest]

I identified with Hemi's initial question. What is more important to you? Your relationship with your family, or your relationship to your God? Whom do you wish to please more? Where are your 'eyes' focused - on the past, or to the eternities?

I know some automatically assume that family would be alienated by choosing to do what is right. I have seen in my life, and in the lives of others, great changes brought about doing what is right in the face of a difficult decision. Often, people are impressed, even if not happy about it.

Hi ryanh. I understand your point but you are like a horse wearing blinders, my friend. RARELY is it that simple.

What does breaking the Sabbath mean to you? It is not NOT LITERALLY not going to a restaurant. Well, maybe it is for you. But, it is not for me. It is the REASON for not going to a restaurant that is important. This is not a choice between God and family. This is a choice on how to follow God with the challenges being faced.

Yes, you can pontificate about setting an example to your family. And so I am setting an example to my family. That it is okay to respect other people's observances so that when the time came that I invited them to my son's baptism, they were willing to attend a non-Catholic event because I have made sure our relationship is intact and I have set an example.

You don't know my family nor Victoria's family - I can be Mormon alone or I can be Mormon with a Catholic family. That is the choice before me. I know where my prayers have led me.

As far as the husband is concerned - yeah, it is not his side of the family. I wonder if he was in his wife's shoes what he would do. But you are right - this needs to be a choice made by the both of them with love and compassion.

Edited May 6, 2010 by anatess

[Guest mormonmusic]

I find it very curious that when there are two factors against going out on Sunday, and only one for going out on Sunday, there are so many willing to advise bending a basic commandment.

Quick question -- Ryanh - do you have non-member parents or brothers and sisters? And does your spouse (if any)?

[ryanh]

Quick question -- Ryanh - do you have non-member parents or brothers and sisters? And does your spouse (if any)?

For someone that rants about others not reading every post in a topic you started, you sure missed reading and retaining it all yourself! In that thread I already tossed out my pearls about chosing the right when it appeared it would offend my non-member family.

[ryanh]

Hi ryanh. I understand your point but you are like a horse wearing blinders, my friend. RARELY is it that simple.

. . .

Yes, you can pontificate about setting an example to your family.

Horse with blinders? Pontificate? Hummm.

I speak from the experience of having to made those real life decisions like Victoria is facing. You know nothing of what I have faced, but are willing to dismiss it out of hand, apparently because it is contrary to the choices you have made. I am not responsible for your cognitive dissonance. Deal with that on your own, and don't involve me, thank you.

[Guest]

Horse with blinders? Pontificate? Hummm.

I speak from the experience of having to made those real life decisions like Victoria is facing. You know nothing of what I have faced, but are willing to dismiss it out of hand, apparently because it is contrary to the choices you have made. I am not responsible for your cognitive dissonance. Deal with that on your own, and don't involve me, thank you.

You misunderstood me. I said you CAN pontificate. As in, it's okay. You can. Because, it has truth to it. (About your point of setting an example). What I tried to point out is that I can follow your advice of setting an example doing it the other way.

I never dismissed what you said out of hand. I just showed you that there is no right or wrong answer here like you tried to say. Just because we chose to go to the restaurant with family doesn't mean we abandoned God.

Breathe... I didn't mean to cause you to be upset.

Edited May 6, 2010 by anatess

[Guest mormonmusic]

For someone that rants about others not reading every post in a topic you started, ....

OUCH! Ryanh, OUCH!