Why does Socialism seem to lead to the decline of religion?


Guest mormonmusic
 Share

Recommended Posts

Guest mormonmusic

Regardless of the nation you're in, I've noticed a tendency for people with left-wing political leanings to want to reduce the influence of religion in our society.

Have you noticed this to be a general theme in socialism? And if so, why do you think socialism and the decline of religion in society are so related?

Edited by mormonmusic
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 249
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I can't speak about other nations, but,it seems that in the USA the Democratic Party attracts more people with atheist leanings and more secularized members of society. I am not throwing stones mind you, just making an observation. The Democratic Party openly supports abortion rights which for many religious people...even the marginally religious, is taboo.

I suspect that the nature of socialism....or big government statism like we are rapidly embracing in the USA, leads people to depend more and more on the government to provide for or supplement their needs as opposed to faith in God. Again, not passing judgment or saying that applies to all liberals/Democrats. But certainly that particular organization is welcoming to people with these ideologies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest shiz

socialism/communism has been responsible for more deaths in the 20th century than any other plague combined.

Did you know the Nazi party was a form of socialism? It was officially named "national socialists".

In practice all of the forms of socialism/communism are almost identical. The only difference is the severity of the socialistic society.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Socialism is a step between Capitalism and Communism - at least according to Marx and Lenin.

Socialism, in itself, is not anti-religion. As a matter of fact, socialism is more in line with the law of consecration which most religious orders support. There is not a "decline of religion" that I see in Socialism. What I see is a "freedom of religion" that allows for individual choice which may seem like religion is declining because it allows for more people with a different religious belief than yourself.

Communism, though, is directly in contrast with freedom of religion (at least the Marxism-Leninism version) because it deems religion as a false consciousness that instills "classes" within the population (at its simplest, the righteous versus the evil). There are other forms of Communism though which are non-Marxist - one of which is the Christian Communism movement that believes Jesus Christ supports communism as the ideal social system. But, it still holds that for communism to succeed, it cannot allow for the population to choose different religions whose doctrines could possibly contradict the advancement of the proletariat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think there is any correlation, much less a causal relationship between the rise of socialism and a decline in the interest of religion among the citizenry in a socialist nation. I am an ardent anti-socialist and a lover of captialism, but I don't see any reason for a decline in religious interests as one becomes more supportive of the nationalization of the means of production. In fact, a great many anti-capitalists stand on religous grounds.

The current trend wherein atheists tend to favor the Dems over the Repubs is only a recent one. It is only the result of the religous right's control of the Republican Party in the past couple of decades. Previous to that, atheists tended toward the capitalist Republicans, not the do-gooder progressives in the Democrat Party. But now, atheists find themselves struggling to lend support to a party so deeply saturated in religous rhetoric.

Socialism is nothing more than one of a whole array of various methods of economic interventionism. It has been proven mainly to cause more harm than good and as a result has been largely abandoned by most of the world including and especially the supporters of economic interventionism. The vast amount of evidence has become too undeniable that without real market signals management becomes impossible and massive misallocations result. This is the reason for the collapse of socialism throughout the world.

Cronyism, however, lives on and becomes evermore sophisticated. The attempts of interventionists at abating it through legislation has and will be proven to be nothing but ill-fated fascism supporting none-other than those whom the legislation promises to remove from the status of privilege.

Socialism, powerful as it has been in robbing men of their means of production, has been powerless to rob them of their means of thought and spiritual consideration. Because of this, it has not diminished the pursuit of godliness among men.

-a-train

Link to comment
Share on other sites

socialism/communism has been responsible for more deaths in the 20th century than any other plague combined.

Did you know the Nazi party was a form of socialism? It was officially named "national socialists".

In practice all of the forms of socialism/communism are almost identical. The only difference is the severity of the socialistic society.

Yet, interestingly, the Social Democratic Party was a sworn enemy of Hitler and the Nazis (Explaining Hitler)

But I do admire how you lumped together all socialist/communist societies. It's a good thing the Church doesn't and hasn't ever encouraged any kind of communal arrangement.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regardless of the nation you're in, I've noticed a tendency for people with left-wing political leanings to want to reduce the influence of religion in our society.

Have you noticed this to be a general theme in socialism? And if so, why do you think socialism and the decline of religion in society are so related?

I think it depends on your definition of religious influence but i'm some what conservative and agree with some reduction because i see religious influence as religious influence and not in the vacuum of "my religion" that many do.

When the government says "Look Mr Christian, we understand you see homosexuality as a sin but our society doesn't so we will teach as normal."Many Christians get up in arms about it but what they fail to realize is that it is the same as Government saying "Look Mr devout Muslim, we know you think women should cover their body from head to toe, not drive, take certain careers etc. but our society doesn't so we teach it as normal."

If a Muslim parent doesn't want their daughter to take Drivers ed, i say let the parent take them out of class, don't ban women altogether

If a Hard core Baptist doesn't want the their kid to have sex ed, let them take them out, don't ban it altogether

If an Lds parent doesn't want their child to be taught SSM is normal then, let them take their kid out of the class/section.

Keeping religious influence on society to a minimum not only keeps the values we have from being "forced" on others but keeps religious values we don't have from being forced on us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Isn't England a socialist nation?

i'm not in England but right now we not anything:), and depends on your definition of socialist nature for us it would only be so if Labour party was in solo. Although given as Christianity is our offcial religion hmm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

socialism/communism has been responsible for more deaths in the 20th century than any other plague combined.

Did you know the Nazi party was a form of socialism? It was officially named "national socialists".

In practice all of the forms of socialism/communism are almost identical. The only difference is the severity of the socialistic society.

This is a most interesting post. Not only was the Nazi party a form of socialism it was also a very deep seeded Christian movement to reestablish the Holy Roman Empire for the 3rd time - thus the 3rd Richt.

This would disprove the thread thesis - that religion and socialism do not mix in history.

The Traveler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Socialism, as set up by Marx and Engels is without God. The State is the religion. It is based upon materialist and humanist thought, which often leads people away from a close and personal relationship with God.

Europe is heavily socialist, and also very areligious. Many do believe in God, but do not bother to show up to Church, etc. God is an afterthought in their lives. You worship God at Christmas and Easter, and perhaps during your birth saint's day. Their lives are built around the concept of working a few hours a week, and then relax and vacation the rest of the time.

Democrats in the USA are often focused on humanist and materialist answers to solutions. They seek to have government fund and provide for the key needs and wants of society. They wish to guide individuals and groups towards a group goal of goodwill and middle class euphoria. Such does not need people to be heavily involved in religion, but in supporting government. There is competition between individual free will and governmental control/guidance: home schooling versus union/government schools, FairTax versus the multiple enforced taxes we now have. One cannot easily be a religious freak and also allow for liberal governmental control or guidance on abortion, gay rights, health care, and other like issues.

Finally, socialism causes people to think en masse, alike. There is less and less individual thought when everyone is expected to think as the government requires. The more socialism in a society, the less people think for themselves. Individualism forces people to survive and thrive by thinking and figuring things out. Freedom causes many to seek the rhyme and reason to life, and find it and hope in religion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regardless of the nation you're in, I've noticed a tendency for people with left-wing political leanings to want to reduce the influence of religion in our society.

Have you noticed this to be a general theme in socialism? And if so, why do you think socialism and the decline of religion in society are so related?

Why do we have to keep eating the manna that religion provides, when we can enjoy the rich leeks and onions the government offers? Oh please, please, Moses...let's return to Egypt! :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yet, interestingly, the Social Democratic Party was a sworn enemy of Hitler and the Nazis (Explaining Hitler)

But I do admire how you lumped together all socialist/communist societies. It's a good thing the Church doesn't and hasn't ever encouraged any kind of communal arrangement.

Just coz the church hasnt 'lumped' the two together doesnt mean it aint true either.

And just coz Hitler was an enemy to the SDP doesnt mean Hitler did not belive in socialist ideals. Trying to dispell Hitlers ties to socialism when the Nazi Party was the National Socialist Party is kinda dumb.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest mysticmorini

the sociologists answer would be that by providing for the immediate need of the people, people have the needs met that are usually met by religion. Scandinavian countries are the only true example of this as the use of coercion in communist russia seems to skew the result.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are lots of answers to this very question by GAs. I would rather quote them than my own thoughts.

Elder John A. Widtsoe Evidences and Reconciliations

Modern communism, facism, nazism, socialism, and other related systems, are all the same in essential theory. They oppose religion, except as they themselves claim to be revelations, and they reject Christian morality. They prohibit free speech and action; eliminate private ownership and initiative; hold without exception the state above the individual; regiment the people; allow the strong to dominate the weak; they take government out of the hands of the governed, and place it in the hands of a self-appointed, selfish, self-styled, super-group, and they culminate in dictatorships. The free agent has no place in their systems. Their claim that they believe in human equality, as shown by their tyrannical behavior, is false. Force and terrorism are their weapons. All that makes for human security and happiness is destroyed.

CR April 1963 Ezra Taft Benson

"We may first observe that communism and socialism-which we shall hereafter group together and dub Statism-cannot live with Christianity nor with any religion that postulates a Creator such as the Declaration of Independence recognizes. The slaves of Statism must know no power, no authority, no source of blessing, no God, but the State....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regardless of the nation you're in, I've noticed a tendency for people with left-wing political leanings to want to reduce the influence of religion in our society.

Have you noticed this to be a general theme in socialism? And if so, why do you think socialism and the decline of religion in society are so related?

I think any form of government is contrary to religion because the religious person says "God is in charge of my life" where any form of government says it is in charge. It is just a matter of how much are they in charge of our lives. Government forms that interfere more in individual freedoms also attempt to take away a persons focus from service to God. You can't take that away from any form of government so it is best to choose the form that interferes the least.

The other thing about left-wing politics is that it requires a component of judging one's circumstance. To "even the playing field" one has to make a judgment call about what is fair and what is not fair and who has more and who has less. Robin Hood was a thief even though his intentions were good. But Robin Hood had to be the judge and jury to carry that out. Do I want government or God to be my Judge? Christ like love is charity. Charity is the free giving of one's resources or self out of love not forced by taxes or law. Left wing politics approaches what Satan proposed, nobody should suffer, why should some be made great and some be made less?

We didn't choose that pathway in the pre-existence why should we choose it now? I thought we already chose Christ's way over Satan's way, but maybe some just went with the crowd and didn't think about why.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

SeminarySnoozer:

I have to disagree a little. Yes, Most governments feel they are in charge. But there have been a few times in history where the people were in charge, and the government was the servant of the people. At one time, such was the case in our own country of America. Hopefully it can be so again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This was the most intelligent and erudite post on why socialism is evil I have ever heard.

Well said, Rameumptom.

I still have misgivings about radical capitalism, since this type of capitalism has only existed in states of anarchy where government cannot oversee corporate endeavor. And areas of anarchy have proven that the inherent goodness of humankind is not quite at the point it should be.

But I would agree: The stated purpose of socialist policies should be to raise everyone to an idyllic middle class. Since government is naturally inefficient, it very rarely works.

Socialism, as set up by Marx and Engels is without God. The State is the religion. It is based upon materialist and humanist thought, which often leads people away from a close and personal relationship with God.

Europe is heavily socialist, and also very areligious. Many do believe in God, but do not bother to show up to Church, etc. God is an afterthought in their lives. You worship God at Christmas and Easter, and perhaps during your birth saint's day. Their lives are built around the concept of working a few hours a week, and then relax and vacation the rest of the time.

Democrats in the USA are often focused on humanist and materialist answers to solutions. They seek to have government fund and provide for the key needs and wants of society. They wish to guide individuals and groups towards a group goal of goodwill and middle class euphoria. Such does not need people to be heavily involved in religion, but in supporting government. There is competition between individual free will and governmental control/guidance: home schooling versus union/government schools, FairTax versus the multiple enforced taxes we now have. One cannot easily be a religious freak and also allow for liberal governmental control or guidance on abortion, gay rights, health care, and other like issues.

Finally, socialism causes people to think en masse, alike. There is less and less individual thought when everyone is expected to think as the government requires. The more socialism in a society, the less people think for themselves. Individualism forces people to survive and thrive by thinking and figuring things out. Freedom causes many to seek the rhyme and reason to life, and find it and hope in religion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just coz the church hasnt 'lumped' the two together doesnt mean it aint true either.

And just coz Hitler was an enemy to the SDP doesnt mean Hitler did not belive in socialist ideals. Trying to dispell Hitlers ties to socialism when the Nazi Party was the National Socialist Party is kinda dumb.

You've done a grand job of missing the point. Not all socialist societies share the same values and ideals. Having a preference toward socialism doesn't require sharing the values of the Nazi party. Nor does being a Christian require a person to reject socialism/communism.

The Gospel can flourish under any government where the people are free to devote themselves to their God before they devote themselves to the state.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest mormonmusic

However, I might add that that freedom of religion is only granted by Socialists when that religion supports the brand of the Socialists' political philosophy. The interests of the socialist philosophy trump freedom of religion.

Given the tendency of socialist governments to proactively regulate, control, tax and shape society to their liking, I think there's far greater risk that your religious freedoms will be stunted if a socialist party gets into power than if the people elect a right wing, hands-off party.

It's been cited that the Nazis had elements of a Christian movement in their philosophy. I would argue that they only supported Christianity because they thought it could be used to support their beliefs in control, anti-Semitism and racism --not because the freedom to express Christianity was an inherent right for all people to enjoy.

For example, Jehovah's Witnesses were labelled as misfits because they didn't believe in recognizing man's government. This was a threat to the Nazis. Therefore, the Nazi's took away their freedom of religion and threw them into the prison camps. Mormons survived without such persecution, however, because they believed in obeying the laws of the land.

Freedom wasn't granted for the sake of freedom, it was granted only to those religions which served the philosophy of the Socialist government in power.

In socialist nations, religions are free only to the extent they support the philosophies of the socialst party in power. So, if you want a socialist government in power, you better hope they share your religious ideals. And you better hope that subsequent leaders who rise to power within that party have religious ideals in the same ballpark as yours.

Someone once said "We don't have democracy, we only elect our dictators every four years". I'd rather have a dictator who believes in hands-off (conservatism) than one that has this appetite to control so many aspects of my existence (the socialists). My freedom of religion is safer that way.

Edited by mormonmusic
Link to comment
Share on other sites

SeminarySnoozer:

I have to disagree a little. Yes, Most governments feel they are in charge. But there have been a few times in history where the people were in charge, and the government was the servant of the people. At one time, such was the case in our own country of America. Hopefully it can be so again.

Any government that has an underlying motive to save people from themselves will end up being self promoting, self righteous and judgmental. Even if that form of government starts out with good intentions and maybe even good people in charge, eventually there will be people who use the little bit of authority to self promote and claim the credit for "saving the people" for themselves. That path is satanic in nature.

If there was such a government that said, I am here to do whatever you want me to do, it wouldn't survive because the majority of people in this world are evil and choose evil over good. Having the people in charge is not the answer either because their motives as a whole are based in selfish needs.

The only perfect government is the one that governs perfect people and overseen by perfect people. I am glad you have hope, but it will never be "good" until Jesus reigns.

I agree with what you have said about the choices between the lesser of the two evils. But in my mind, any form of government, in this world, is one that has to self promote and suggest that it can save the people from themselves just like Satan proposed before this world began. So, I think it is best to always choose the form that gives us the most freedom to act for ourselves and to govern ourselves, until we are in a situation where everyone around us is good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a most interesting post. Not only was the Nazi party a form of socialism it was also a very deep seeded Christian movement to reestablish the Holy Roman Empire for the 3rd time - thus the 3rd Richt.

This would disprove the thread thesis - that religion and socialism do not mix in history.

The Traveler

It's my understanding that the Nazis were not Christian, but that their rituals were rooted in German paganism. PBS also had a documentary intimating that Hitler was involved in the Occult. What Christians of that era are often criticized for is being silenced by the German government--not so much for providing it any kind of cover or fodder.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is simple.

Socialism wants the government in charge of certain things. Typically people are better off if they are in charge of those things. People give up responsibility for themselves whenever a government program is instituted to "help" them. They may be good programs, but those things should be done voluntarily by the people.

The programs typically instituted by a socialist governement are designed to make the people reliant or dependant on that program. That is damaging to the people who become dependant on the program.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This was the most intelligent and erudite post on why socialism is evil I have ever heard.

Well said, Rameumptom.

I still have misgivings about radical capitalism, since this type of capitalism has only existed in states of anarchy where government cannot oversee corporate endeavor. And areas of anarchy have proven that the inherent goodness of humankind is not quite at the point it should be.

But I would agree: The stated purpose of socialist policies should be to raise everyone to an idyllic middle class. Since government is naturally inefficient, it very rarely works.

Radical capitalism?? what on earth....

Capitalism is only ever corrupted when govt, esp socialist govts deride it for votes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share