Why does Socialism seem to lead to the decline of religion?

[Vort]

As far as the law of consecration in the temple:

Vort, do you not think for a minute that the definition of the law of consecration changed the moment the United Order failed?

Of course not, no more than I believe the definition of the law of chastity changed the moment the Manifesto banning polygamy was signed.

Basically what I am saying is that it was in the Temple when the United ORder was going on also. The whole explanation of the Law of Consecration is about the United Order.

You are wrong. Period. I hope you do not actually believe this. Because if you do, it means you don't take seriously your covenant to live the law of consecration, assuming that it's just for some unspecified time in the hazy future.

Nobody and I repeat nobody lives up to the Law of Consecration, that would take giving everything you have. You would have nothing but your needs met.

No, Tyler. You are mistaken. Every man and woman who receives his or her endowment accepts the law of consecration as a present, immediate concern. You have covenanted to consecrate EVERYTHING you have and will ever have, and EVERYTHING you are and will ever be, to the building up of God's kingdom. That is a solemn covenant, and you cannot lightly break it and think you will stand justified before God by saying, "Well, hey, we weren't living the united order, so it didn't really count."

[Tyler90AZ]

No, Tyler. You are mistaken. Every man and woman who receives his or her endowment accepts the law of consecration as a present, immediate concern. You have covenanted to consecrate EVERYTHING you have and will ever have, and EVERYTHING you are and will ever be, to the building up of God's kingdom. That is a solemn covenant, and you cannot lightly break it and think you will stand justified before God by saying, "Well, hey, we weren't living the united order, so it didn't really count."

Do you have a car that exceeds your needs? Do you go on vacation? Do you buy stuff you do not need? If so, you are not giving everything you have... That is what I mean nobody is living the Law of Consecration.

[Vort]

Do you have a car that exceeds your needs? Do you go on vacation? Do you buy stuff you do not need? If so, you are not giving everything you have... That is what I mean nobody is living the Law of Consecration.

No, Tyler. It does not say give everything you have. It says consecrate everything you have.

[Hala401]

Is the United Order something you should be talking about in front of people without temple priveleges? I think this talk if frightening me.

[Vort]

Is the United Order something you should be talking about in front of people without temple priveleges? I think this talk if frightening me.

The "united order" is never mentioned in the temple. It was an attempt by the early Saints of this dispensation to live in a united manner, with all things common, as was apparently done by the primitive Saints in the time of Peter and Paul. It is one expression of the law of consecration, and not really a very successful one. There is nothing profane in talking about it. For that matter, there is nothing profane or wrong in talking about the law of consecration, something discussed at length in the scriptures.

[volgadon]

Not to spill too much, at one point in the temple we are even directed to read a section of the Doctrine and Covenants relating to the law of consecration.

[FunkyTown]

Is the United Order something you should be talking about in front of people without temple priveleges? I think this talk if frightening me.

Don't be frightened. The whole 'Sacred, not secret' thing. Basically, the gist of consecrating everything you have - Talents and such - is that you are pushing forward with love for God in everything you do. You place God first.

It doesn't mean you have to surrender your paycheck every week to the church. It means you will try to keep God in everything you do.

[Tyler90AZ]

Don't be frightened. The whole 'Sacred, not secret' thing. Basically, the gist of consecrating everything you have - Talents and such - is that you are pushing forward with love for God in everything you do. You place God first.

It doesn't mean you have to surrender your paycheck every week to the church. It means you will try to keep God in everything you do.

That is the new version of the Law of Consecration... God seen that his people weren't ready and took the blessing of a literal Zion away.

[Hala401]

Don't be frightened. The whole 'Sacred, not secret' thing. Basically, the gist of consecrating everything you have - Talents and such - is that you are pushing forward with love for God in everything you do. You place God first.

It doesn't mean you have to surrender your paycheck every week to the church. It means you will try to keep God in everything you do.

Heavenly Father already has me and everything I own, having lost everything, now it will all fit in the back of my Corolla, and curiously it is enough for me. I'm sold out to Heavenly Father.

[annewandering]

Everything we have was given to us by God. He has seen our life and blessed us to have some comfort in our old age. Literally. The house we live in was in direct response to desperate prayer. The car we drive was given to us from our need. God has given us miracles in our life.

We think we do it all on our own a lot but we dont. We are blessed everyday by what God gives us in our lives, both spiritually and physically.

Now we can either acknowledge what He has done or claim it is all ours. Living the Law of Consecration is essentially knowing that we have nothing but what God has given us and are willing to share.

I dont really think socialism or capitalism describes that very well. They are both 'lesser plans' because of our unbelief. BOTH, not just socialism. Until we learn better we have to live the Law of Consecration in our lives and work toward the goal of understanding and accepting, for mankind.

[Hala401]

Every day, I am amazed that Heavenly Father keeps me alive. There are new joys unfamiliar to me. Interests that I never expected, and they come from where? I relish looking up words like taciturn, and concupiscence when I read them. They are much more interesting than any words that come from engineering books, or terms like modulus of elasticity. Heavenly Father even knows of my dark thoughts and does not punish me over them, knowing my struggles.

If he can do such miracles in my own life then how much more so will he do for the world when the time is right.

[Sicily510]

United Order

See also Consecrate, Law of Consecration.

An organization through which the Saints in the early days of the restored Church sought to live the law of consecration. Individuals shared property, goods, and profits, receiving these things according to their wants and needs (D&C 51:3; 78:1–15; 104).

In your temporal things you shall be equal, D&C 70:14

The Saints were to be organized to be equal in all things, D&C 78:3–11 (D&C 82:17–20).

The Lord gave unto the united order a revelation and a commandment, D&C 92:1

John Johnson should become a member of the united order, D&C 96:6–9

The Lord gave general instructions for operating the united order, D&C 104

My people are not united according to the union required by the celestial kingdom, D&C 105:1–13

Consecrate, Law of Consecration

See also Kingdom of God or Kingdom of Heaven; United Order.

To dedicate, to make holy, or to become righteous. The law of consecration is a divine principle whereby men and women voluntarily dedicate their time, talents, and material wealth to the establishment and building up of God’s kingdom.

Consecrate yourselves to day to the Lord, Ex. 32:29

All that believed had all things common, Acts 2:44–45

They had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, 4 Ne. 1:3

The Lord explained the principles of consecration, D&C 42:30–39 (D&C 51:2–19; D&C 58:35–36).

One man should not possess more than another, D&C 49:20

Every man was given an equal portion according to his family, D&C 51:3

An order was established so that the Saints could be equal in bonds of heavenly and earthly things, D&C 78:4–5

Every man was to have equal claim according to his wants and needs, D&C 82:17–19

Zion can only be built up by the principles of celestial law, D&C 105:5

The people of Enoch were of one heart and one mind and dwelt in righteousness, and there were no poor among them, Moses 7:18

This is why I asked is Socialism a divine principle or a theory derived from men to be used by men? It's important not to rationalize or use juxtapo'sition when trying to understand heavenly fathers plan. It's been already perfected and is "as is". That's why there is no need to reprove and petition for changing heavenly fathers law, but to voluntarily dedicate ourselves as servants and leaders for those who don't have such knowledge.

[volgadon]

Socialism is a category, simple as that. Just as the LDS church is a religion.

[norah63]

In an earlier post it was said about the 'primitive saints', were not very successful in their way of having all things common. How do we know is wasn't? Just wondering.

Have we evolved into a better plan for church life?

The divisions in those who are all wanting to serve and take part in the church today would be done away with in an 'all things common' plan.

[Vort]

In an earlier post it was said about the 'primitive saints', were not very successful in their way of having all things common. How do we know is wasn't? Just wondering.

I believe you misinterpreted what I wrote:

The "united order" is never mentioned in the temple. It was an attempt by the early Saints of this dispensation to live in a united manner, with all things common, as was apparently done by the primitive Saints in the time of Peter and Paul. It is one expression of the law of consecration, and not really a very successful one. There is nothing profane in talking about it. For that matter, there is nothing profane or wrong in talking about the law of consecration, something discussed at length in the scriptures.

That is, the "united order" as lived by the early Saints of this dispensation:

• tried to emulate the attempts at living in a united manner made by the primitive Saints at the time of Peter and Paul;
• was an expression of the law of consecration;
• was not really very successful.

How successful the primitive Saints were at implementing this idea, I don't know.

Have we evolved into a better plan for church life?

We have the ancient law of tithing, which appears to be sufficient for our needs at this time.

[Tyler90AZ]

Here are some Interesting quotes and scriptures regarding the United Order:

18 And all this for the benefit of the church of the living God, that every man may improve upon his talent, that every man may gain other talents, yea, even an hundred fold, to be cast into the Lord’s storehouse, to become the common property of the whole church—

D&C 82:18

“The fact that each steward had an equal right to draw upon the common treasury to supply the needs of his stewardship did not mean that each man could withdraw the same amount. Instead, his right to withdraw funds depended upon the size and kind of his stewardship, its legitimate needs, his demonstrated integrity and ability in managing his stewardship, and the principle of common consent.” (Hyrum L. Andrus, Doctrines of the Kingdom [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1973], 278-280.)

19 Every man seeking the interest of his neighbor, and doing all things with an eye single to the glory of God.

D&C 18

‘It was my endeavor,’ wrote the Prophet, ‘to so organize the Church, that the brethren might eventually be independent of every incumbrance beneath the celestial kingdom, by bonds and covenants of mutual friendship, and spiritual love.’ (History of the Church, 1:269)” (William O. Nelson, “To Prepare a People,” Ensign, Jan. 1979, 20–21)

Gospel Doctrine

[UticaPowerhouse]

"A few social surveys done recently have looked at cross-national studies and compared data between countries on religious belief, on religious practice, on frequency of prayer, and other things like that. One recent study looked at income inequality and frequency of prayer, and they found that the more unequal a society, the greater sense of personal insecurity, and the more often people are inclined to pray. Another study found an inverse relationship between state welfare spending and religiosity and the less a society spends on welfare, the more people turn to religion for comfort and support. For example, in the US religious belief remains quite high, and this has long been confusing to social scientists because date has shown that as countries become wealthier and industrialized, people tend to become less religious. The US has always been an outlier in that. Despite being the richest nation in the world, and one of the most industrialized, rates of religious identification and practice in the US remain comparable to many developing countries and considerably higher than any other industrialized country on most measures. But when the level of welfare spending per head is taken into account, the US no longer stands out. Put simply, religiosity in the US can be seen as a response to the fact that it is a much harder and insecure country to live in than other industrialized nations.

Now correlation is not causation, so there are other ways to read this data and I'm sure social scientists will continue to dispute it, but in interviews done by social science researchers where they ask Christians about how they see God operating in their lives, the things they talk about are things like finding a job, stress at work, stress raising children, worries about money and health. In other words, their everyday conditions under capitalism. In a world that heaps enormous responsibilities on every single person to try to figure out how to deal with everything in their lives and to make it through, it's no wonder people look for God to be active in their lives. So unemployed people being passed over for yet another job, it's better to understand this as God telling them this wasn't the right job for them. For single parents raising three kids, believing that God will provide when they don't know where the money for their rent check is going to come from is an important coping mechanism just to get by in life. Capitalism is so uncertain, and God and prayer provide some kind of support and some kind of certainty."

-Quoted from Dr. Rachel Morgain

[UticaPowerhouse]

Another way to look at this question is to examine how religion has often alienated particular societies where socialism has taken root (Europe forinstance). For example, many religions have been fighting a tooth and nail fight with science over numerous topics for years (luckily our Church takes no official position on topics like the Big Bang or evolution, and even teaches them at BYU). Brigham Young once pointed to this fact as being one reason why people are reject religion entirely when he said,

"I am not astonished that infidelity prevails to a great extent among the inhabitants of the earth, for the religious teachers of the people advance many ideas and notions for truth which are in opposition to and contradict facts demonstrated by science, and which are generally understood."

There is also the fact that Europe, where socialism is much more accepted and is consider more mainstream, has had terrible experiences with religion for centuries. It's very likely that their aversion to religion is a reflection of this history more than it is the reflection of socialism.

Europe was dominated by a corrupt theocracy for centuries during the middle ages, and in some places up to the last few decades. Scientists were silenced and denounced by religious authorities, like with Galileo, others were burned at the stake, like Giordano Bruno. During this time European societies were devastated by religiously sanctioned witch hunts, inquisitions, crusades and tyrannies. When the Reformation came there wasn't much change... Protestants persecuted and killed Catholics, Catholics persecuted and killed protestants, each fought bloody wars to control various parts of Europe, then persecuted those they disagreed with within their own territories once they had won them.

Europe went through the 30 years war, which was religiously based. During the First World War, religious priests and ministers of various faiths encouraged entry into the war as well as encouraging continued fighting despite it's devastating effects. Italy's fascist state under Mussolini was closely aligned with the religious elites of Italy. Spain's first attempt at a democratic republic was brutally smashed by a religious fascist rebellion that violently maintained power for 40 years (similar thing in Portugal under Salazar). Religious support was given to Hitler and the Nazi's by various Catholic and Protestant groups (including, shamefully, many LDS leaders in Germany at the time... not the Church itself, but by individual leaders within that country at the time). Religious involvement in the holocaust is well documented in the book "Betrayal" by Robert C. Ericksen. Molestation at the hands of Catholic priests and the subsequent cover ups that Catholic leadership was involved in. The current corruption issues the Vatican is involved in. The list could go on.

Everything I said about Europe could carry over to other parts of the world where socialism can be found as well... Central and South America, Africa, Asia. My view is that those segments of society that reject religion in these parts of the world do so more because of the religiously sanctioned and brutal colonialism, as well as the brutal suppression of efforts at independence or reform movements.

[UticaPowerhouse]

If this was the history that surrounded you, don't you think you would look at religion somewhat suspiciously as well?

The only European we've ever had as President of the Church, John Taylor, even stated that were it not for the fact that he found Mormonism, he would have rejected all religion.

[UticaPowerhouse]

As to discussion about the Church's efforts at establishing various egalitarian social orders as alternatives to capitalism, I would recommend reading two books by Church historian Leonard Arrington. The first is "Great Basin Kingdom" the second is "Building the City of God". By the way, the Church made several attempts at creating an egalitarian social order, all of which were different from each other. The three greatest attempts were the The Law of Consecration attempted under Joseph Smith's Presidency, the United Order attempted under Brigham Young, and the Church's cooperative movement attempted under Brigham Young and partly up into the 20th century.

For anyone interested in the Church's earlier links to the Socialist movement and Socialist Party, as well as understanding when and why that association was broken, I would recommend reading "Mormonism in Transition" by Church historian Thomas Alexander, "David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism" by Church historian Gregory Prince, "Socialist Party of Utah" by John Sillito, "Socialist Saints" by John Sillito and John S. McCormack, "Plotino Constantino Rhodakanaty: An Introduction to a Mormon Anarchist" by Jason Brown and Christopher Nielsen.

If you are not a big reader, or have a hard time locating these writings, here is a short article that discusses the topic:

Socialist Party had success in Utah, among Mormons 100 years ago

Last but not least, here are some interesting quotesand tidbits a time when Socialism wasn't a bad word in LDS circles:

“In no part of the city, or elsewhere in Utah, are their signs of abject poverty... While not communists, the elements of socialism enter strongly into all their relations, public and private, social, commercial, and industrial, as well as religious and political. This tends to render them exclusive, independent of the gentiles and their government, and even in some respects antagonistic to them. They have assisted each other until nine out of ten own their farms, while commerce and manufacturing are to large extent cooperative. The rights of property are respected; but while a Mormon may sell his farm to a gentile, it would not be deemed good fellowship for him to do so.”

-quoted from "History of Utah, 1540-1886" by Hubert Howe Bancroft page 306

"thanks to a certain dose of socialist solidarity, the Mormons have in a few years attained a state of unbelievable prosperity"

-quoted from "Victor Considerant and the Rise and Fall of French Romantic Socialism" by Jonathan Beacher, p. 301

"I have no quarrel with Socialists. I am not blind to the abuses which exist in the world and the great necessity for social reform. I believe Socialists to be sincere in their efforts to improve the conditions of the masses"

-Apostle Anthony Ivins, 1912

"I see no harm in the wise and intelligent study of socialistic principles, such of them at least as are true and as the teachings of the Gospel and the spirit of the Lord will approve, nor in belonging to a club or society having that as its only purpose"

-President Joseph F. Smith, 1902

In a letter to his son Willard, just a year before his death, Brigham deplored the growing tendency in Utah to "teach the false political economy which contends against cooperation and the United Order"

- Cited in Dean C. Jessee, ed., Letters of Brigham Young to His Sons (Salt Lake

City: Deseret Book Co., 1974), 199.]. It may surprise modern Mormons that that "false political economy" was not socialism or communism but free enterprise capitalism, the lack of which in Utah was being used by gentiles as evidence that Mormons were un-American barbarians [Eugene England, 1995 Making Peace: Personal Essays, Ch.4,

p.76]

Lastly, one of the best selling socialist novels of all time is a book called "Looking Backward" by Edward Bellamy. Bellamy wrote the book after travelling to Utah and spending three days being escorted by Lorenzo Snow and spending the evenings discussing LDS cooperative enterprises and communities. The Church points this out in it's book "Church History in the Fullness of Times" while not going into detail about what the book was, who the author was, and gives only passing information about his visit with Lorenzo Snow (you can find it 20 paragraphs in on Chapter 31 if anyone still has one lying around from institute or seminary or something). As an interesting side note, Edward Bellamy's brother, Francis Bellamy (also a socialist), wrote the Pledge of Allegiance.

Edited June 18, 2012 by UticaPowerhouse

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