Why does Socialism seem to lead to the decline of religion?

[james12]

Okay, back-up just a minute. Socialism is not a form of government and neither is Capitalism. It is an economic theory. So, looking at both of those in that context and then comparing it with Satan's Plan, I present that Socialism IS the state of God's Kingdom... commonly called Law of Consecration.

So, no, Socialism doesn't sound like Satan's Plan at all.

Now, of course, there's a reason why the law of consecration was not imposed on the members of the Church... we're not ready for it. But please don't say it's closer to Satan's plan than capitalism is, because that would not be correct.

Anatess, I am trying to understand your statement, "Socialism IS the state of God's Kingdom... commonly called the Law of Consecration." What do you mean to say by this?

Even at an economic level socialism is not the United Order. Socialism seeks social ownership of property, or production. The United Order is based on private ownership. Even though you deed (consecrate) your property to the church a portion (larger or smaller than what you gave) is deeded back to you. J. Ruben Clark says, it is deeded back "in fee simple". It is yours to do with as you will, sell it, rent it, etc.

The fundamental principle of this system was the private ownership of property. Each man owned his portion, or inheritance, or stewardship, with an absolute title, which he could alienate, or hypothecate, or otherwise treat as his own. The Church did not own all of the property, and the life under the United Order was not a communal life, as the Prophet Joseph, himself said, (History of the Church, Volume III, p. 28). The United Order is an individualistic system, not a communal system. (The United Order Vs. Communism. General Conference Report October 1942, 2nd Session.)

The two systems at their core and in their ultimate results are in disagreement. Edited May 23, 2012 by james12

[HoosierGuy]

You have defined socialism with very few words. That is what the government wants. Dont rely on yourselves. Dont rely on God. Rely on us (the government) for your needs and protection.

What is scary is that socialism is the stepping stone to what we all claim to hate in America... that is Communism. Capitaslism is not perfect, but it certainly doesnt sound like Satans plan.

No, capitalism, at least the way it's practiced right now, is very satanic. Just think about outsourcing U.S. jobs to near slave labor countries. Think about factories in China that make the electronics we buy. There was a news story about the selling of a former Presidents blood. People were acting like they were shocked. Those shocked are the same people who support denying people healthcare to the sick if they don't have the money to pay. Capitalism is very Satanic and it uses religion to keep people under control.

[FunkyTown]

No, capitalism, at least the way it's practiced right now, is very satanic. Just think about outsourcing U.S. jobs to near slave labor countries. Think about factories in China that make the electronics we buy. There was a news story about the selling of a former Presidents blood. People were acting like they were shocked. Those shocked are the same people who support denying people healthcare to the sick if they don't have the money to pay. Capitalism is very Satanic and it uses religion to keep people under control.

Hoosier: What you're saying is incorrect. I'm not a die-hard capitalist and have argued against that stance time and again, as many on here will tell you.

The problem with your argument, along with those who yell "Socialist!" as the answer to everyone who disagrees with them, is that there's an inherent falseness to it.

The problem isn't capitalism, or socialism; The problem is people.

"The natural man is an enemy to God."

Whenever there is a power imbalance, whether that is due to wealth and privilege, elected position or democratic "Tyranny of the majority", some people will take advantage of that and use it to control the lives of those around them. Capitalism is neither good nor bad, but the people make it so. That is its greatest strength and weakness: It has no morality. Government interventionism is neither good nor bad, but the people make it so. The strength of pure capitalism over government interventionism is that a whole lot more people need to be corrupt to break it.

Unfortunately, that number has been reached and then some.

You, me... Everyone has desired what is bad or wicked at one point or many in our lives. That isn't the fault of a system of wealth distribution. That's squarely on us. Blaming pure Capitalism, which doesn't exist on this world, or socialism, or anything is just plain putting the cart before the horse. It isn't the system that's corrupt. It's the people running it.

[Sicily510]

someone quoted in another thread about this....but I'm going to continue by quoting EarlJibbs:

Okay, I admit it, after reading your comment and re-

reading mine, it doesnt come out correctly. So in all honesty, thank you for pointing that out.

Socialism, or communism for that fact is not closer to Satan's plan any more than Capitalism. But you place those economic theories in todays society and what would you get? Something closer to Satan's plan because of the evil hearts of men. And that is scary.

I agree that there was a reason that the law of consecration was not imposed on the members. We as a society are definitely not ready.

Could it be that the law of consecration is a god given right for everyone to practice as they freely choose spiritually that our country is not as spiritual to adhere to such principles?

That's exactly what "The Declaration Of Independence" conveys, the whole aspect of it is inevitable.

Referencing:

There are those who claim that if the civil government acknowledges God, it is practicing “religion” which is prohibited by the First Amendment’s establishment clause, which allegedly requires the “separation of church and state.” This view ignores the legal documents that articulate the American philosophy of government. A governmental philosophy that presupposes the existence of the Creator is essential to fundamental legal concepts such as equal protection under the law, due process, and unalienable rights.

The Declaration of Independence, the legal covenant that brought the United States of America into existence, specifically declared the philosophy of government upon which our nation was to be built. “All men are created equal, … they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights.” The political philosophy that presupposes the existence of the Creator God is no more “religion” than a political philosophy that presupposes no Creator God (socialism and communism).

In the classic book, The American Ideal of 1776, the author documents and explains 12 fundamental principles that are central to the philosophy of government of the United States.

IBLP has obtained a limited quantity of these out-of-print books. Though written in 1963, the information remains just as applicable to us today.

By Hamilton Abert Long

Hardback; 398 pages

ISBN 0-911-668-02-0

Your Heritage Books, Inc.

I'm thinking you wish to compare Consecration and Communism. Socialism is an extreme totalitarian government designed to force people into living communistic ideals until they become innate and natural to the individuals. Then it is supposed to magically disappear into Communism.

The two key differences are these:

First, Consecration is made voluntarily by covenant; Communism is initially imposed on individuals as Socialism by government.

Second, Consecration is based upon absolute faith and love of Christ. Communism is based on a society with no religion (opiate of the masses), but is atheistic towards anything other than devotion to the state.

When people are filled with the love of Christ and have consecrated themselves, they desire the best for those around them for purposes greater than themselves. And they choose to do so voluntarily. This encourages the consecrated to work diligently to produce good works and share them with those around them.

Socialism has shown that the individual does not have a desire to benefit anyone or thing, but himself. Productivity greatly reduces and so no one ends up benefitting. Example: Ukraine used to export grain, then was socialized and was no longer able to produce enough for themselves, let alone anyone else. Now that they are a capitalist market again, they are producing enough to export again. Capitalism is better than Socialism/Communism only in that people will do for themselves what they will not do (even when "forced") for others.

The end result is communism and consecration are similar, but worship different entities (state vs Christ). Communism is a coercive program, whereas all must volunteer to enter into consecration of their own accord.

Education of the "American Ideal 1776" is key to allowing this country to prevail with principles that will help in every corner of the United States. We study invasions, we study political warfare, we study america colonizing, and we study races. We don't study principles that this country was built on, that actually applies to everyone now.

I've read an article:

Thomas Jefferson warned us of the danger of "elective despotism:"

"They should look forward to a time, and that not a distant one, when a corruption in this, as in the country from which we derive our origin, will have seized the heads of government, and be spread by them through the body of the people; when they will purchase the voices of the people, and make them pay the price. Human nature is the same on every side of the Atlantic, and will be alike influenced by the same causes. The time to guard against corruption and tyranny, is before they shall have gotten hold of us. It is better to keep the wolf out of the fold, than to trust to drawing his teeth and talons after he shall have entered."

Read more: Articles: Our Elective Despotism

Also, I would like to share a youtube "Deliberate dumbing down via the education system".

I am very grateful to read everyone's input on this....I am anxious to read more. :)

[Sicily510]

Hoosier: What you're saying is incorrect. I'm not a die-hard capitalist and have argued against that stance time and again, as many on here will tell you.

The problem with your argument, along with those who yell "Socialist!" as the answer to everyone who disagrees with them, is that there's an inherent falseness to it.

The problem isn't capitalism, or socialism; The problem is people.

"The natural man is an enemy to God."

Whenever there is a power imbalance, whether that is due to wealth and privilege, elected position or democratic "Tyranny of the majority", some people will take advantage of that and use it to control the lives of those around them. Capitalism is neither good nor bad, but the people make it so. That is its greatest strength and weakness: It has no morality. Government interventionism is neither good nor bad, but the people make it so. The strength of pure capitalism over government interventionism is that a whole lot more people need to be corrupt to break it.

Unfortunately, that number has been reached and then some.

You, me... Everyone has desired what is bad or wicked at one point or many in our lives. That isn't the fault of a system of wealth distribution. That's squarely on us. Blaming pure Capitalism, which doesn't exist on this world, or socialism, or anything is just plain putting the cart before the horse. It isn't the system that's corrupt. It's the people running it.

So what is the solution?

An article that I've read, which I find interesting, but yet do have some differences with:

Read more: Articles: Our Elective Despotism

It's obvious that this country is in "Elective Despotism". What can we do to ammend that? What do you think could minimize "Elective Despotism"?

[FunkyTown]

So what is the solution?

An article that I've read, which I find interesting, but yet do have some differences with:

Read more: Articles: Our Elective Despotism

It's obvious that this country is in "Elective Despotism". What can we do to ammend that? What do you think could minimize "Elective Despotism"?

There's nothing that can be done on a legal level to prevent despotism of some type from advancing. That's just human nature.

When full deregulation happens in an economy, those who get wealthy do whatever they can to hold on to their wealth and power. This creates a secondary tyranny. When the tyranny of the majority occurs, those of wealth and privilege find that those without strip it out of jealousy. Railroad barons, modern Diamond conglomerations and the Democracy of ancient Athens all spring to mind of various different examples where tyranny came in its various forms.

The next step in human gubernatorial agency cannot be one of revolution, but of evolution. Simply put: We need to be better people to embrace a more utopian ideal. Until we remove the beam in our own eyes - All of our eyes - We will not see clearly enough to fix the laws around us.

So what's the answer? God. I think that's the only answer.

[JohnnyRudick]

There's nothing that can be done on a legal level to prevent despotism of some type from advancing. That's just human nature.

When full deregulation happens in an economy, those who get wealthy do whatever they can to hold on to their wealth and power. This creates a secondary tyranny. When the tyranny of the majority occurs, those of wealth and privilege find that those without strip it out of jealousy. Railroad barons, modern Diamond conglomerations and the Democracy of ancient Athens all spring to mind of various different examples where tyranny came in its various forms.

The next step in human gubernatorial agency cannot be one of revolution, but of evolution. Simply put: We need to be better people to embrace a more utopian ideal. Until we remove the beam in our own eyes - All of our eyes - We will not see clearly enough to fix the laws around us.

So what's the answer? God. I think that's the only answer.

Well put.

Thanks:cool:

Hopefully you will not mind if I re post this comment on my Facebook page by "Funkytown".

[TheStig]

“As our modern societies follow the course which led to the fall of Rome and other civilizations which succumbed to the deceptive lure of the welfare state and socialism, I think it not inappropriate for me to emphasize again the Lord’s plan for the temporal salvation of His mortal children. To emphasize the contrast between the Lord’s plan and some of the absurd practices of our day….”

?In Mine Own Way? - general-conference (emphasis added)

“The united order, according to Elder Harold B. Lee, is “more capitalistic … than either Socialism or Communism, in that private ownership and individual responsibility will be maintained.” (In Conference Report, Oct. 1941, p. 113)”

To Prepare a People - Ensign Jan. 1979 - ensign

“Are you concerned about the increasing subversion in this blessed country, and other countries of the free world, and the spread of wickedness by a giant conspiracy? Would you be interested in reading the Book of Mormon, which records the downfall of two great ancient American civilizations as a result of internal secret conspiracies and contains a warning to us today that when we see these conditions in our midst, the Lord commands us to awake to our awful situation? With the increasing amount of aid and trade that we are providing the enemy of freedom, you might be interested to know what the Book of Mormon says will happen to a nation that upholds this conspiracy. Would you like to know of the warnings of the prophets about our increasing descent down the soul-destroying road of socialism and what they have told us to do about it?”

Listen to a Prophet?s Voice - Ensign Jan. 1973 - ensign

[FunkyTown]

“As our modern societies follow the course which led to the fall of Rome and other civilizations which succumbed to the deceptive lure of the welfare state and socialism, I think it not inappropriate for me to emphasize again the Lord’s plan for the temporal salvation of His mortal children. To emphasize the contrast between the Lord’s plan and some of the absurd practices of our day….”

?In Mine Own Way? - general-conference (emphasis added)

“The united order, according to Elder Harold B. Lee, is “more capitalistic … than either Socialism or Communism, in that private ownership and individual responsibility will be maintained.” (In Conference Report, Oct. 1941, p. 113)”

To Prepare a People - Ensign Jan. 1979 - ensign

“Are you concerned about the increasing subversion in this blessed country, and other countries of the free world, and the spread of wickedness by a giant conspiracy? Would you be interested in reading the Book of Mormon, which records the downfall of two great ancient American civilizations as a result of internal secret conspiracies and contains a warning to us today that when we see these conditions in our midst, the Lord commands us to awake to our awful situation? With the increasing amount of aid and trade that we are providing the enemy of freedom, you might be interested to know what the Book of Mormon says will happen to a nation that upholds this conspiracy. Would you like to know of the warnings of the prophets about our increasing descent down the soul-destroying road of socialism and what they have told us to do about it?”

Listen to a Prophet?s Voice - Ensign Jan. 1973 - ensign

Thank you, Thestig, for writing this. I'm glad you did. Especially the bit about how it's 'More capitalistic ... than either Socialism or Communism, in that private ownership and individual responsibility will be maintained.'

We all appreciate this. As the more Socialist states all allow private ownership and stewardship, clearly he's talking about something different than what most modern people do when they use 'Socialist' as a club. There's an evolution of words and these mean something different now than they did, then.

We all appreciate you showing us how language has changed.

[HoosierGuy]

The problem isn't capitalism, or socialism; The problem is people.

You can't have capitalism without exploiting people. Somewhere along the line people are going to be exploited all in the name of profits. Capitalism should be tightly controlled like nuclear energy. Let it loose and it becomes dangerous. Capitalism and a free marking mean bad things.

As for the original topic of this thread - Socialism does not lead to a decline in religion. It's freedom of religion and freedom from religion that leads to a decline and that decline is people simply saying - I don't want to join your church or worship your God, now leave me alone!

[JohnnyRudick]

You can't have capitalism without exploiting people. Somewhere along the line people are going to be exploited all in the name of profits. Capitalism should be tightly controlled like nuclear energy. Let it loose and it becomes dangerous. Capitalism and a free marking mean bad things.

As for the original topic of this thread - Socialism does not lead to a decline in religion. It's freedom of religion and freedom from religion that leads to a decline and that decline is people simply saying - I don't want to join your church or worship your God, now leave me alone!

Atheistic Preaching in our schools create a lack of respect for things of God.

This creates a climate of "I don't want to join your church or worship your God, now leave me alone." in the general public.

Followed by a suppression of religion with more Atheistic preaching developing animosity against religion in general.

Just my thinking on the subject from observation over the years. plus a little history reading.

[Guest]

Anatess, I am trying to understand your statement, "Socialism IS the state of God's Kingdom... commonly called the Law of Consecration." What do you mean to say by this?

Even at an economic level socialism is not the United Order. Socialism seeks social ownership of property, or production. The United Order is based on private ownership. Even though you deed (consecrate) your property to the church a portion (larger or smaller than what you gave) is deeded back to you. J. Ruben Clark says, it is deeded back "in fee simple". It is yours to do with as you will, sell it, rent it, etc. The two systems at their core and in their ultimate results are in disagreement.

James, I am not talking about the United Order. That is simply one application to implement the Law of Consecration in an imperfect world.

No, I am talking about the Celestial Law of Consecration. And THAT is simply socialism in its purest form where everyone VOLUNTARILY dedicates everything that they are, have, own to God's Kingdom. Everyone's achievements/talents are gained without any thought of self but purely as a contribution to God's Kindgom. Every man would then have equal claim according to his wants and needs and everything dedicated to the glory of God.

[JohnnyRudick]

James, I am not talking about the United Order. That is simply one application to implement the Law of Consecration in an imperfect world.

No, I am talking about the Celestial Law of Consecration. And THAT is simply socialism in its purest form where everyone VOLUNTARILY dedicates everything that they are, have, own to God's Kingdom. Everyone's achievements/talents are gained without any thought of self but purely as a contribution to God's Kindgom. Every man would then have equal claim according to his wants and needs and everything dedicated to the glory of God.

Cool idea.

[annewandering]

Cool idea.

It is. Now for the day when greed, desire for power, self conceit, etc. wont stand in the way of that.

[JohnnyRudick]

It is. Now for the day when greed, desire for power, self conceit, etc. wont stand in the way of that.

[james12]

James, I am not talking about the United Order. That is simply one application to implement the Law of Consecration in an imperfect world.

No, I am talking about the Celestial Law of Consecration. And THAT is simply socialism in its purest form where everyone VOLUNTARILY dedicates everything that they are, have, own to God's Kingdom. Everyone's achievements/talents are gained without any thought of self but purely as a contribution to God's Kindgom. Every man would then have equal claim according to his wants and needs and everything dedicated to the glory of God.

Thanks for the clarification. I now understand the thought. However, earlier you defined socialism as an "economic theory" so in that sense socialism does not adequately equate to the law of consecration. As you have stated, the law of consecration is much broader than simply an economic theory. Thus I equated your use of the term socialism with the united order as found in the law of consecration.

At any rate, your now extremely broad definition of socialism may aim to achieve the law of consecration but the only path to living the law must ultimately include the united order. For each person must have the "free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life" (see D&C 134:2). A system that does not offer at minimum all these protections will never allow a person to learn how to be free, nor will it teach one to voluntarily give all that they have and are to the Kingdom of God.

[annewandering]

Stewardship. Not control. Everything we have, or ever will have is God's. Giving it to God is just acknowledging that ownership.

[Guest]

Thanks for the clarification. I now understand the thought. However, earlier you defined socialism as an "economic theory" so in that sense socialism does not adequately equate to the law of consecration. As you have stated, the law of consecration is much broader than simply an economic theory. Thus I equated your use of the term socialism with the united order as found in the law of consecration.

At any rate, your now extremely broad definition of socialism may aim to achieve the law of consecration but the only path to living the law must ultimately include the united order. For each person must have the "free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life" (see D&C 134:2). A system that does not offer at minimum all these protections will never allow a person to learn how to be free, nor will it teach one to voluntarily give all that they have and are to the Kingdom of God.

No. I didn't say socialism equates to Law of Consecration. I said socialism is closer to the Law of Consecration than Capitalism is - hence, it is not closer to Satan's Plan like you stated. Make sense?

And no, I don't see how the only path to living the law must include the United Order. The United Order was the application of the law at that time. Tithing, fast offerings, bishop's storehouse, provident living is the application of the law in today's time. As we progress closer to the millineum, the application of the law may change according to the hearts of men in that future time.

The principle of the law of consecration is that we don't have to worry about right or control of property as well as protection of life because when we are ready to live it fully everyone would have achieved the qualities to live celestial law and such protections would not be necessary - possibly achieved when Jesus comes to rule the earth once more. By the way, I don't believe that economy will cease to exist in the celestial kingdom. I do believe that talents and resources (not necessarily material in nature but could possibly include material stuff such as worlds or what-have-you) and the accumulation thereof would continue in our eternal progression.

In today's fallen state of man, capitalism is more suited than socialism (sorry FunkyTown, I have to disagree with your socialistic preference over capitalistic) because it does not require that man be "good". In its purest form it has a natural mechanism to reward achievement and punish greed. Whereas, the success of a socialistic society relies fully on man's capacity to be selfless - not a natural quality of the fallen man.

[annewandering]

lol Well it seems to me that we see how well capitalism works with evil people. Not so good. Dont think ANY plan works well when people can be so greedy and evil. They can always find a way to pervert the intention of the plan.

[Guest]

lol Well it seems to me that we see how well capitalism works with evil people. Not so good. Dont think ANY plan works well when people can be so greedy and evil. They can always find a way to pervert the intention of the plan.

You are right... but in a capitalistic environment, it takes a whole lot of powerful evil people to break the system because it is mostly self-correcting. Now, the ideal application of capitalism is to have the flow regulated by a government to prevent the rise of a lot of powerful evil people. But, that also adds another layer where the evil people can penetrate - and that is the regulatory layer. But even in this scenario, when you're in a democratic climate, it is still harder to maintain that level of evil because people have the natural desire to fight tyrants and all you have to do is have enough economically-aware people (those who understand the complex cause-and-effect of the system) to shift the balance of power. Of course, if you have a citizenry who is educated by the government (through government regulated education and ad councils and such) or the slew of powerful evil people (media outlets like advertisements and economists and such), then it is easier to keep the number of economically-aware people very low as to prevent them from impacting the system.

A socialistic society can only succeed when it is regulated by government. Basically, the government is the arbiter of socialism. It is super easy to abuse that system because all you have to do is penetrate that arbiter and you're done for. Now, if the government is democratic, then it is harder to do it because people's natural desire to fight tyrany will lend to correction. But... the bad side of it is, people's natural desire for self-aggrandizement can give them a reason to support the tyrant fighting off the corrective measure. In a society of 5 wolves and a sheep, democracy is great unless you're the sheep...

[annewandering]

I am afraid too many of us are sheep and there are way too many wolves and the wolves are very very BIG. But you are right. Revolution will take care of that.

[Guest]

I am afraid too many of us are sheep and there are way too many wolves and the wolves are very very BIG. But you are right. Revolution will take care of that.

We're hoping the Revolution is led by sheep... and not wolves in sheep's clothing...

I so prefer the sheep to the wolf. They're just way cuter. Take that, Jacob! LOL.

[FunkyTown]

We're hoping the Revolution is led by sheep... and not wolves in sheep's clothing...

I so prefer the sheep to the wolf. They're just way cuter. Take that, Jacob! LOL.

That's why I think it'll be evolution and not revolution: Swords in to plowshares and all that.

Until a lot of the wolves start thinking, "Y'know? Maybe there really is something to this whole sheep thing.", I suspect there won't be a solution that will last for any length of time.

[rameumptom]

Hoosier Guy noted that "denying health care is Satanic."

In what way is that Satanic? When did providing health care become a natural or spiritual right? Did King Benjamin in the Book of Mormon or King Hezekiah in the Bible provide health care to their people? If not, would you consider them "Satanic"?

Was Jesus "Satanic" when he didn't heal those people that did not have faith to be healed? Why didn't he just heal them, as that is their God given right?

If we were to grant that health care is a right, then just how much health care does that mean? Are we Satanic if we deny a heart transplant to 90 year old patients? Are we Satanic if we do not provide "free" contraceptives and abortifacients to college age women? Where do you propose we draw the line between the godly right to health care and the Satanic act of denying it?

You also condemned the use of Chinese workers to provide things for Americans. Yes, the conditions are worse than any of us would like. But consider this: without American money coming into their system, the average Chinese person only made about $400 per year. Now, most of those working in those "terrible" conditions at factories are taking in ten times that amount of money (or more). Instead of living in abject poverty, they are part of a new middle class in China. How tragic can that be, when it is much better than what they had before?

[Windseeker]

No, capitalism, at least the way it's practiced right now, is very satanic. Just think about outsourcing U.S. jobs to near slave labor countries. Think about factories in China that make the electronics we buy. There was a news story about the selling of a former Presidents blood. People were acting like they were shocked. Those shocked are the same people who support denying people healthcare to the sick if they don't have the money to pay. Capitalism is very Satanic and it uses religion to keep people under control.

So Capitalism uses religion to keep people under control?...

...do tell.