Why are people so threatened?


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Guest mormonmusic

The evangelical-LDS divide remains mostly contentious, and much of the interaction is still rather hostile. I would like to believe that it's moving in the right direction, however slowly.

Thanks. When I was in leadership in the Church, I had this idea to reach out to an Evangelical congregation within our Ward boundaries. Meet with their leader and discuss the possibility of a service project we do jointly for someone/some organization in our community.

This was partly to heal my own heart, which has been skewered a few times by the influence of anti-Mormon sentiments, and who would like to see a good relationship with those groups who are antagonistic to us. But I also thought it might add to the sum of goodness in the world.

Naturally I would've stood clear of doctrinal conversations and focused simply on celebrating our common interest in doing good to our fellow man.

Unfortunately, the trust level was so low given the tactics, misinformation etcetera I'd experienced, so I figured I'd be outright rejected as an infiltrator or someone with impure motives -- so I never acted on the idea.

It's nice to know there are groups out there who are similarly minded -- recognizing that antagonism does little to build bridges and influence. It only entrenches each side into a greater divide.

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There is no way to prove the gospel by going with the scriptures. You can support your beliefs from the scriptures, but nothing more. The only proof available is the witness of the Holy Spirit. It will not be your responsibility to convert people. Yours will be to find and teach people, and then allow the Spirit to convert those who are ready to listen.

Do not spend your mission bashing scriptures with people. Use the scriptures to explain/support our beliefs, but no more. If they wish to debate, then you are not with people who are ready to listen or learn. Agency means they have the right to listen or not listen. There have always been those who have vocally fought against the gospel, and for them there isn't much we can do.

A friend of mine went to visit Sandra Tanner (key anti-Mormon) at her bookstore many years ago. He asked her if archaeologists were to find a 2000 year old sign in Mesomerica saying "15 miles to Zarahemla" would she then believe. She paused and said, "it would be a point for discussion." In other words, nothing was going to convince her.

People must humble themselves, or be humbled by God, before they will submit themselves and learn his word. Most just aren't going to do that. So you become the opportunity for them to hear, and the warning voice. Your testimony of the truth is far more important than trying to prove everything through the scriptures.

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Why are LDS so threatened when someone says you are not Christian? Maybe its because I agree with them I am not of the same religion as them, I walked away from mainstream Christianity to be a Latter Day Saint, and I am quite happy with the label I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. To be honest I would love the First Presidency to say actually were not Christian, we are just doing what Christ wants of us. Doubt they will lol

I don't like a lot of the doctrine of mainstream Christianity and struggle when I only use the Bible, something is missing. Ultimately if you know you are where God wants you does it matter if they think you are not Christian?

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Guest mormonmusic
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Why are LDS so threatened when someone says you are not Christian?

I personally don't feel threatened at all. I know what I am, and I know what I believe.

We give a lot of our time and money to follow Christ, and to be told by others we're not Christian is just plain offensive to me. And, if you ever get heavily involved in missionary work or church leadership, you find yourself striving for worthy goals, such as proclaiming the gospel, and find yourself thwarted in your efforts by misconceptions about the Church like this one. The unfounded opposition it creates is also a sticking point with me on this issue.

Also disturbing is that the definition of a Christian they use to intentionally exclude us. It's been invented with the mindset "We don't like the Mormons, so how can we make people suspicious of them? I got it -- let's label them as non-Christian, relegating them to the status of other minority religions on North America such as Buddhists, Dausists, and Bahai faith members".

Let's say that you have a circle of people you know, and you want to form a club. There is one person who you know wants to be part of the club, and you don't want them to be admitted. They are distinctive because they have red hair.

This club will be called "The People with Hair club". However, you define "having a head of hair" as having a head of BLONDE OR BRUNETTE HAIR, just to exclude the redhead.

That's what these religions do, citing our red-haired belief that God and Christ have bodies and are two separate Beings. Correcting this falsehood is one reason I always defend our position on this issue.

Edited by mormonmusic
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My husband and I just talked about this last night. He went with the missionaries yesterday and was reminded of how difficult it is to be a missionary because you are faced with people who feel so strongly that Mormons have a terrible message and will do anything to avoid the missionaries. It's really quite sad.

I understand that often times people fear what they do not understand, but it seems to me that people really fear the possibility that what the missionaries are saying is true, and they don't want to accept that.

We recently watched the PBS documentary on the Mormons, and in it a Jewish leader talked about how horrible it was that we were performing baptisms for those who died during the Holocaust. He stated he didn't want to get to heaven and be told he can't be with his family because some other religion had already claimed their souls. If he didn't believe that what we are preaching is true, why would he be so concerned with this? I think his fears are an admission of the truthfulness of this Church.

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We recently watched the PBS documentary on the Mormons, and in it a Jewish leader talked about how horrible it was that we were performing baptisms for those who died during the Holocaust. He stated he didn't want to get to heaven and be told he can't be with his family because some other religion had already claimed their souls. If he didn't believe that what we are preaching is true, why would he be so concerned with this? I think his fears are an admission of the truthfulness of this Church.

One MUST try to understand the other person before casting a judgment on them. If you want to walk a mile in their shoes, you need to first take yours off. Your statement shows that you're trying to view the world in their eyes, but keeping your own lenses on too.

Jews feel that they've been under attack. For generations. For centuries. Now, when they hear about a ritual for the dead by some other religious group... they may feel that there's no rest for them and that their salvation (as they know it) is at risk, let alone those who have DIED FOR THEIR FAITH and wore their faith on their sleeve (literally).

How would you feel if you knew the pioneers who traveled to Salt Lake with Brigham Young were being baptized into the "David Koresh" cult? (Yes, I'm using a cult as a reference as that's what SOME people think of us.) Do you think they could've respected their choices in this life and leave them alone? That's what some people think about us... until they can be taught about what we're doing is presenting the deceased with a GIFT and a CHOICE. When presented in that way, and that the Lord they know would NEVER impose a faith upon us, it is understood in a better and more correct light.

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Guest mormonmusic

That's what some people think about us... until they can be taught about what we're doing is presenting the deceased with a GIFT and a CHOICE.

That's why I always stand up when they start spouting off false doctrine. However, most of the time their minds are closed due to the falsehoods and they won't listen.

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One MUST try to understand the other person before casting a judgment on them. If you want to walk a mile in their shoes, you need to first take yours off. Your statement shows that you're trying to view the world in their eyes, but keeping your own lenses on too...

How would you feel if you knew the pioneers who traveled to Salt Lake with Brigham Young were being baptized into the "David Koresh" cult? (Yes, I'm using a cult as a reference as that's what SOME people think of us.) Do you think they could've respected their choices in this life and leave them alone? That's what some people think about us... until they can be taught about what we're doing is presenting the deceased with a GIFT and a CHOICE. When presented in that way, and that the Lord they know would NEVER impose a faith upon us, it is understood in a better and more correct light.

I'm sorry that I cannot comprehend your analogy because I've never heard of David Koresh. Being that I am new member, I probably don't have the full understanding of which you speak, but I do understand that even though a baptism, confirmation, etc. may be performed for someone who is dead, it doesn't automatically make them a member of the Church. They still have to make a choice to accept the Gospel. I'm sure, as you mentioned, that non-members probably do not understand this concept. But it's my opinion that if you do not agree with the beliefs of another religion, why spend so much time letting their beliefs upset you if you did not fear their belief may be correct...?

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They still have to make a choice to accept the Gospel. I'm sure, as you mentioned, that non-members probably do not understand this concept.

Exactly...everyone's temple work will be done prior to the end of the millennium, except sons/daughters of perdition, but it is still left up to them to accept it after a thorough repentance is completed and the Savior to grant them access into the Celestial Kingdom.

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Just to put the shoe on the other foot a little bit...I had some missionaries visit my house last week. I mentioned chatting with LDS here at LDS.net, and one of them misunderstood. He responded, "You've been talking with FLDS????"

I would never suggest that the elder felt threatened by the FLDS movement. But neither did he want to be associated with it. In his mind they were not true Mormons.

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Also disturbing is that the definition of a Christian they use to intentionally exclude us. It's been invented with the mindset "We don't like the Mormons, so how can we make people suspicious of them? I got it -- let's label them as non-Christian, relegating them to the status of other minority religions on North America such as Buddhists, Dausists, and Bahai faith members".

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whats wrong with that? just curious as LDS we have as much in common with Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Jainism, Wiccan, Neo Paganism etc as we do mainstream Christianity? Maybe its just because I'm not American I don't get the suspicion of other religions

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One MUST try to understand the other person before casting a judgment on them. If you want to walk a mile in their shoes, you need to first take yours off. Your statement shows that you're trying to view the world in their eyes, but keeping your own lenses on too.

Jews feel that they've been under attack. For generations. For centuries. Now, when they hear about a ritual for the dead by some other religious group... they may feel that there's no rest for them and that their salvation (as they know it) is at risk, let alone those who have DIED FOR THEIR FAITH and wore their faith on their sleeve (literally).

How would you feel if you knew the pioneers who traveled to Salt Lake with Brigham Young were being baptized into the "David Koresh" cult? (Yes, I'm using a cult as a reference as that's what SOME people think of us.) Do you think they could've respected their choices in this life and leave them alone? That's what some people think about us... until they can be taught about what we're doing is presenting the deceased with a GIFT and a CHOICE. When presented in that way, and that the Lord they know would NEVER impose a faith upon us, it is understood in a better and more correct light.

Well said! Jewish people have been persecuted for centuries longer than the LDS church was, and to many of them, proxy work for Holocaust victims is the worst thing for them, since their religion is why they were murdered in the first place.

I'm not LDS, but I understand why people do temple work for those who have died, as it's part of the religion, just as a Catholic would have masses done on behalf of someone who has died. I don't believe in the LDS church, so if I found out that my ancestors had their temple work done, I wouldn't be upset at all.

For those who don't know about David Koresh, here you go:

David Koresh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Edited by ADoyle90815
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Guest mormonmusic

whats wrong with that? just curious as LDS we have as much in common with Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Jainism, Wiccan, Neo Paganism etc as we do mainstream Christianity? Maybe its just because I'm not American I don't get the suspicion of other religions

I think your queston was "what's wrong with being relegated to a non-Christian, minority religion?" and then the other comments in the quote above.

The answer? When you're trying to generate converts and spread your message, it's a lot easier when you build on existing beliefs and values, as well as presenting a message that's consistent with accepted values of the country.

In America, most religious people accept the Bible, Christianity etcetera, which are both part of our religion. The fact that Christ lived is already accepted among many who would consider our faith, making the jump to our version of Christianity easier.

If you start making us out to be non-Christian, it represents a break from tradition that people find hard to accept. And forcing them to make that jump is unecessary, because we ARE Christian.

It has nothing to do with being suspicious of other religions, it's about being as famliar as we are.

Other Churches know this, and try to drive a wedge between us our potential converts who already accept Christianity, trying to make us appear like grossly unfamiliar

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Guest mormonmusic

Just to put the shoe on the other foot a little bit...I had some missionaries visit my house last week. I mentioned chatting with LDS here at LDS.net, and one of them misunderstood. He responded, "You've been talking with FLDS????"

I would never suggest that the elder felt threatened by the FLDS movement. But neither did he want to be associated with it. In his mind they were not true Mormons.

I can see how the analogy might seem to hold -- common beliefs, confusion by association, essentially the same acronym for the name of the religion. A certain amount of non-acceptance of the other religion's beliefs.

But there is a significant difference -- we simply say we're not the same Church as the FLDS. We don't invent definitions of a what a Mormon is, simply to exclude the FLDS from our religion.

Also, I think the non-LDS Christians put a fence between us because they don't want to be associated with us., or because we reflect badly on them. I believe non-LDS Christians label us non-Christian to prevent others from believing our message.

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I can see how the analogy might seem to hold -- common beliefs, confusion by association, essentially the same acronym for the name of the religion. A certain amount of non-acceptance of the other religion's beliefs.

But there is a significant difference -- we simply say we're not the same Church as the FLDS. We don't invent definitions of a what a Mormon is, simply to exclude the FLDS from our religion.

But do FLDS members have authority to practice the sacraments? Do they have a better probability of glorification, and eternity in the Celestial Kingdom, since they are Mormons with the restored gospel...they just happen to be a different church? Do not most LDS view the FLDS as heretics? I ask this, not to imply any meanness, but simply to discern just how signficant the divide is.

Also, I think the non-LDS Christians put a fence between us because they don't want to be associated with us., or because we reflect badly on them. I believe non-LDS Christians label us non-Christian to prevent others from believing our message.

Only the final reason. In fact, most non-LDS Christians readily admit that most LDS are a pleasure to have as neighbors, and that they/we would have little difficulty associating with you, on a personal level. Likewise, LDS do not reflect badly upon other Christians, other than by whatever confusion non-Christians might have about our doctrinal differences. Non-LDS Christians often do wish to dissuade investigators from joining your faith, simply because it's perceived as doctrinally in error. Oh...and of course, there are those horns that make us nervous.

Edited by prisonchaplain
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But do FLDS members have authority to practice the sacraments? Do they have a better probability of glorification, and eternity in the Celestial Kingdom, since they are Mormons with the restored gospel...they just happen to be a different church? Do not most LDS view the FLDS as heretics? I ask this, not to imply any meanness, but simply to discern just how signficant the divide is.

Salvation in the Celestial kingdom means you have fully accepted Jesus Christ into your life accepted and applied his atoning blood. No one but Christ, the righteous judge can determine that.

Assuming the LDS stance is correct I do not believe that merely knowing a larger majority of truth then the general Christian world would drastically increase the probability of exaltation. Agreed that the more you lean about the true doctrine of Christ the more you will act upon it, but more important that your knowledge and professed beliefs on this earth is the life you live according to what you know.

I do not believe that the LDS members have a monopoly of land in heaven. The LDS church is a small minority on the earth today, and personally ,out of the billions of Gods children who have sought to know him better, I believe the those that found and accepted the "fullness" of Gospel on earth(meaning all the LDS ordinances) will be but a small Minority in the Celestial Kingdom.

Gods plan is all inclusive to those seeking for truth.

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Lynden Jensen

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Guest mormonmusic

But do FLDS members have authority to practice the sacraments? Do they have a better probability of glorification, and eternity in the Celestial Kingdom, since they are Mormons with the restored gospel...they just happen to be a different church? Do not most LDS view the FLDS as heretics? I ask this, not to imply any meanness, but simply to discern just how signficant the divide is.

We don't have a lot of dealings with the FLDS, and there is never any discussion about them in Church either. So there is no real relationship divide that I've experienced. WE just consider them a different Church with similar roots and some overlap of philosophies, but they are a different Church. And it ends there..

Only the final reason. In fact, most non-LDS Christians readily admit that most LDS are a pleasure to have as neighbors, and that they/we would have little difficulty associating with you, on a personal level. Likewise, LDS do not reflect badly upon other Christians, other than by whatever confusion non-Christians might have about our doctrinal differences. Non-LDS Christians often do wish to dissuade investigators from joining your faith, simply because it's perceived as doctrinally in error. Oh...and of course, there are those horns that make us nervous.

I know there are well-meaning individuals who simply want to dissuade people from our religion because they believe it's not correct. But to promulgate the myth we're not Christian also seems like intent to marginalize so we look so strange no one would even consider us. People hold their Christianity very dear to their heart, so nullifying the common thread -- belief in Christ as a Savior -- is one way they can persuade others to ignore us.

Personally, I don't know why non-LDS have to resort to labelling us non-Christian to make us seem strange and unfamilier. We're strange and unfamiliar enough as it is!

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Well, if it's any consolation, my time here has convinced not to label LDS as non-Christians. When I am asked--especially by my fellow Protestants, my response is that we have very serious doctrinal differences, and one of our groups is quite wrong about God's nature and program. How wrong one can be and still please God by acting in accordance with what is known...well, that's within the parameters of God's responsibility, not mine. Pursue God and truth...that's my encouragement.

We recently had two LDS missionaries visit us. Many here might be surprised that I really don't have much live interaction with LDS--except casual conversations with the volunteers who come to our jail. So, as they shared their basic message about Jesus and the intent to share the gospel, I sought discernment. Ultimately, we talked some about our perspectives on modern revelation, and then I prayed for them--that God would honor their service and guide them and reveal his truths to them. And that's it.

As we love to say in government work, when asked about anything outside our direct responsiblity, "I can neither confirm nor deny..." :-)

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Chaplin here is a question for you (or anyone else). If you worshiped Satan but in all honestly believed that you were serving God, and did everything you could do to serve who you perceived was God with your heart was in the right place. would God condemn you for an incorrect knowledge of the nature of God? Or what is their state with God. (Or even assume Decartes evil Demon scenario) Obviously this is pure speculation as none of us are in a place to judge, but what would your feelings/philosophy/theology tell you?

Related Joseph Smith quote:

"the first principle of revealed religion is to know for a certainty the character of God"

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Lynden Jensen

Check out my blog

Know♣Justice

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Guest mormonmusic
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How wrong one can be and still please God by acting in accordance with what is known...well, that's within the parameters of God's responsibility, not mine.

This is the same argument I gave to my non-member parents.

If I can slip into academic thought for a second, there's a philosophy of decision-making called the Max Regret Approach that I think broaches on your comment.

Given two choices you ask "What's the worst thing that can happen if I'm wrong with Choice A"? [give answer, called a regret]

Then you ask "What's the worst that can happen if I choose Choice B?" [give answer, also called a regret]

Then you pick the choice with the minimum negative consequence (the minimum regret)

The consequences of choosing a mainstream religion when I shouldn't, means no eternal progression or life with my family. If I'm wrong about the LDS Church, and should've chosen a traditional Christian religion, I see no consequence. I still believe in Christ, His Atonement, and try to serve Him. The consequence of accepting Jesus into my life when I'm in the wrong Church (assuming LDS is wrong) means I still get salvation because I have faith in Him, accept his atonement and try to serve him for the rest of my days.

If it turns out I'm wrong about this Mormon thing (and I haven't ruled out the fact that God may say I'm wrong, notwithstanding my testimony and spiritual experiences) then I will tell God I tried to live a religion that seemed to have higher standards of behavior than other choices I considered. And that I acted on what I felt was direction from Him to go down this path of Mormonism. I will tell him that I found reasons for various religions to be equally compelling, and that without physical evidence to support the arguments, I just didn't know. However, I'll also tell him I did feel spiritual promptings and intense spiritual feelings I believed came from God -- and acted on them out of obedience to him. I will give that same obedience to him going forward now that He's shown me the truth.

I hope I'm covered. If not, then I'm going to have some pointed questions about why He set up a world that was so confusing even intelligent people relying on the Spirit can't seem to get it right.

Edited by mormonmusic
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Chaplin here is a question for you (or anyone else). If you worshiped Satan but in all honestly believed that you were serving God, and did everything you could do to serve who you perceived was God with your heart was in the right place. would God condemn you for an incorrect knowledge of the nature of God? Or what is their state with God. (Or even assume Decartes evil Demon scenario) Obviously this is pure speculation as none of us are in a place to judge, but what would your feelings/philosophy/theology tell you?

In most major religions God promises to reveal himself to true and sincere seekers. So, my speculation is that if I worshipped the Devil, but wanted to worship the true and living God, my error would be revealed to me, and my spirit would awaken when that happened. Romans 1 seems to suggest that ultimately no one will have an excuse for rejecting God. How that gets played out with those who have never heard of Jesus, etc. is indeed speculation...but I know that God is good and just, so I have no doubt that the Day of Judgment will be yet another revelation of God's goodness, justice and mercy.

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