Tithing and spousal support?

[bl8tant]

Had an interesting discussion with my soon-to-be-ex-wife this evening.

We were discussing spousal support, and whether she needs to pay tithing on it.

I pay tithing on my gross income, so my argument was that she didn't need to tithe on it.

Her argument was that the support is part of her "increase" and so she should tithe on it.

We'll get around to asking our bishop, but I was wondering what kind of opinion all y'all have about it. Let fly...

[pam]

It's an increase to her...therefore should be tithed.

[MisterT]

I think she should pray about this issue after discussing it with the Bishop.

Our stake heirarchy has asked us to increase the offerings received by July; there are a lot of very needy families in my stake who have to rely on the Bishop's Storehouse for food and clothing, and fast offerings are used to cover the bare essentials of life (maintaing a residence, utilities).

Were I the one to receive support from my ex-spouse I would definately pay tithes and fast offerings out of it because I want the blessings that come with being a full tithepayer.

I'm glad you're still friendly enough with your soon-to-be ex-wife to have a rational conversation such as the one you've described above; perhaps you can be close friends instead of spouses.

[pam]

I don't know if you could also get an answer from the following:

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/21758-lds-net-references-tithing.html

[Melissa569]

I think its kind of like how the government taxes the company you work for, and then they tax your individual paycheck too...

You paid your tithe... But since you and her are no longer a combined unit, and you passed the money on to her, whatever money she gets is her own individual increase.

Just my opinion.

PS-- Its nice of you to even pay spousal support, though. Most of they guys I know would their ex to get lost, lol. Not saying you should, I'm just saying its kind.

Edited May 14, 2010 by Melissa569

[Wingnut]

PS-- Its nice of you to even pay spousal support, though. Most of they guys I know would their ex to get lost, lol. Not saying you should, I'm just saying its kind.

It's probably mandated by the court. Alimony.

[Daniel2020]

As a former Bishop with a MBA let me address both the letter and the spirit of the law:

The letter of the law is that tithing is something that needs to be paid once, not twice. A child receiving an allowance, a college student support by parents, etc. is not required to pay tithing on money received if the parents have already paid tithing.

I see two easy solutions:

1. The spouse paying the alimony can "deduct" it when computing gross income as strictly speaking it's not part of his increase.

2. The spouse receiving the alimony does not need to pay tithing if the money has already been tithed.

Now for the spirit of the law: Be as generous in calculating your tithing as you want the Lord to be in calculating your blessings.

[Daniel2020]

An unsolicited comment: It would seem that a couple that can have a rational discussion about tithing should be able to reconcile their marital differences.

[Hemidakota]

Had an interesting discussion with my soon-to-be-ex-wife this evening.

We were discussing spousal support, and whether she needs to pay tithing on it.

I pay tithing on my gross income, so my argument was that she didn't need to tithe on it.

Her argument was that the support is part of her "increase" and so she should tithe on it.

We'll get around to asking our bishop, but I was wondering what kind of opinion all y'all have about it. Let fly...

If the promptings of the Spirit told her to pay tithing, follow the council given.

[Gwen]

i think it's a decision between her and the lord and maybe the bishop. not up to any of the rest of us or the ex.

not that taxes is the right guide to use on figuring out "increase" but it's another perspective on the money. is she required to claim it as income for taxes?

i don't know how alimony works on taxes but child support is not considered "income". my husband pays child support, he is taxed before the child support is taken out and she does not have to report on her taxes as having received child support (ie she isn't taxed on it). the only time it is required to claim child support as income is if you are applying for a loan and you intend to use the support to make all or part of the payment. you are required to give the bank some info on who is providing the support, the amt etc.

side note, personally i think this is wrong. even if not taxed on it it should be required to report it. i also think it should be reported any time income for the child is being discussed (free/reduced school lunch forms, etc).

[bl8tant]

An unsolicited comment: It would seem that a couple that can have a rational discussion about tithing should be able to reconcile their marital differences.

Yeah, you would think so, wouldn't you? I think the same thing. Too bad she doesn't.

[bl8tant]

As a former Bishop with a MBA let me address both the letter and the spirit of the law:

The letter of the law is that tithing is something that needs to be paid once, not twice. A child receiving an allowance, a college student support by parents, etc. is not required to pay tithing on money received if the parents have already paid tithing.

I hadn't thought of it that way. We expect our kids to pay tithing on their allowance, and I guess that's the right model to use here as well. Thanks for pointing that out.

[bl8tant]

It's probably mandated by the court. Alimony.

My STBX and I have negotiated our own settlement. Depending on the court system to solve the disputes that come up as part of a marriage dissolution is a recipe for bitterness, penury, and general unhappiness.

As to Melissa's point: what I feel my STBX deserves and what I will provide are two very different things. I am obligated (and willing) to support my children. I am obligated to support my STBX for a period of time, and so I will. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

[Just_A_Guy]

I see two easy solutions:

1. The spouse paying the alimony can "deduct" it when computing gross income as strictly speaking it's not part of his increase.

That's what the IRS does . . . Alimony is taxable to the recipient and tax-deductible to the payor.

Seems to me that you're taking the same amount of money formerly used to support one household, and stretching it to support two households. IMHO, that is not "increase".

[MarginOfError]

As a former Bishop with a MBA let me address both the letter and the spirit of the law:

The letter of the law is that tithing is something that needs to be paid once, not twice. A child receiving an allowance, a college student support by parents, etc. is not required to pay tithing on money received if the parents have already paid tithing.

I see two easy solutions:

1. The spouse paying the alimony can "deduct" it when computing gross income as strictly speaking it's not part of his increase.

2. The spouse receiving the alimony does not need to pay tithing if the money has already been tithed.

Now for the spirit of the law: Be as generous in calculating your tithing as you want the Lord to be in calculating your blessings.

Being a former bishop, I'd have thought you would know that the Church Handbook of Instructions state nothing about tithing only being paid once or twice.

The CHI description of tithing (and I'll have to go on memory for a second since I left my copy at the chapel) is that tithing has been defined as 10% of a person's increase, which has been interpreted to mean their income. That's all it says about what tithing is. But members are encouraged to pray about what an honest tithe is and seek counsel from priesthood leaders as appropriate.

I, for one, am comfortable saying that a former bishop on lds.net does not qualify as a priesthood leader. My advice would be to express your concern to your ex, and then advise her to talk to her bishop if she has any questions. After that, it's really out of your hands.

[bl8tant]

My advice would be to express your concern to your ex, and then advise her to talk to her bishop if she has any questions. After that, it's really out of your hands.

Right on. I was posting here out of curiousity, not in an attempt to get The Right Answer to beat her with. She's a big girl and can make her own choices, receiving the natural consequences thereof.

(ever since our bishop asked her "So, are you waiting to date someone else?" in a lame attempt at humor, I'm thinking she may not talk to him that much!)

[MarginOfError]

Right on. I was posting here out of curiousity, not in an attempt to get The Right Answer to beat her with. She's a big girl and can make her own choices, receiving the natural consequences thereof.

(ever since our bishop asked her "So, are you waiting to date someone else?" in a lame attempt at humor, I'm thinking she may not talk to him that much!)

ooo...what an awful joke to make. I mean, I think it's hilarious, but that's just a joke left untold.

[bl8tant]

Our bishop gets away with a lot because he's in his mid-70s. That remark is very much in line with his sense of humor. Sometimes it's hilarious, other times not so much.

[baver3]

Alimony is considered TAXED INCOME. You MUST pay tax on it.

I would therefore consider it income. It makes sense to pay tithing on it.

On the other hand, child support is not taxed. I dont think it would be right to pay tithing on that. Thats just my little humble opinion.

[Honor]

Alimony is considered TAXED INCOME. You MUST pay tax on it.

I would therefore consider it income. It makes sense to pay tithing on it.

On the other hand, child support is not taxed. I dont think it would be right to pay tithing on that. Thats just my little humble opinion.

That's what I was thinking. I've viewed Child Support in a similar way to how I view a tax return. It's a reimbursement and I've already paid tithing on the income.

[Hemidakota]

You can pay tithing on your net. You can pay tithing on your gross. With net payments, you will need to pay tithing on your tax return.

Now, if the government paid tithing, I wonder how much it would be?

[riverogue]

"Now for the spirit of the law: Be as generous in calculating your tithing as you want the Lord to be in calculating your blessings."

Spirit of the Law: You can buy extra blessings by paying extra tithing.

Darn, I wish I had more money so that I could afford more super-spiritual merchandise.

[pam]

A child receiving an allowance

You mentioned that tithing shouldn't be paid on this as the parents would have already paid tithing. I totally disagree with this. Yes the parents paid money on THEIR increase. The child has earned the money by doing certain chores around the house. Therefore it is an increase to the child. What better time to start teaching a child about the principle of tithing than now?

Wouldn't that be the same thing as hiring a babysitter but since I had already paid tithing on my money I paid her that she wouldn't have to pay tithing?

May I also say that bringing up the point that you have an MBA, really has no bearing on my opinion of what your comments are.

Edited May 25, 2010 by pam

[Hemidakota]

We have our children still pay tithing to the Lord, regardless where it came from or already paid for. All our materials, monies, belongs to the Lord.

[justaname]

As a former Bishop with a MBA let me address both the letter and the spirit of the law:

The letter of the law is that tithing is something that needs to be paid once, not twice. A child receiving an allowance, a college student support by parents, etc. is not required to pay tithing on money received if the parents have already paid tithing.

I see two easy solutions:

1. The spouse paying the alimony can "deduct" it when computing gross income as strictly speaking it's not part of his increase.

2. The spouse receiving the alimony does not need to pay tithing if the money has already been tithed.

Now for the spirit of the law: Be as generous in calculating your tithing as you want the Lord to be in calculating your blessings.

Sorry bro, but you got this wrong.

It does not take a bishop, or a person with an MBA to understand the letter of the law. The letter of the law is quite simple. You pay a 10th of your increase. There is absolutely nothing that attempts to define what an increase is. Increase is easily defined as "more than you had before". That's it. If you went with your philosophy of whether or not money has been tithed before, then one could reason that eventually every dollar in the world would eventually be tithed and there would no longer be a reason to pay it, since someone else already had.

Its quite clear in the articles of faith that we are not responsible for Adam's transgressions. I think this AoF can also teach us that our fathers also do not absolve us from responsibility either. And that would include tithing.