Conflicted about this particular issue

[Guest mormonmusic]

A couple years ago, we were trying to figure out how to improve Sacrament meeting attendance in our Ward. One leader suggested that you have to make your programs good. Strive for quality in Sunday experiences, Youth programs that are well-organized and meaningful, quorums that have socials and regular service projects, etcetera. All clothed in kindness and love for people who attend, with a healthy dose of the Spirit.

Do you think there is a correlation between the quality of Ward programs in terms of planning and execution, and the Sacrament meeting attendance? Or are there other drivers that are more important?

[jadams_4040]

A couple years ago, we were trying to figure out how to improve Sacrament meeting attendance in our Ward. One leader suggested that you have to make your programs good. Strive for quality in Sunday experiences, Youth programs that are well-organized and meaningful, quorums that have socials and regular service projects, etcetera. All clothed in kindness and love for people who attend, with a healthy dose of the Spirit.

Do you think there is a correlation between the quality of Ward programs in terms of planning and execution, and the Sacrament meeting attendance? Or are there other drivers that are more important?

Nobody can be touched by the spirit if they dont come with desire to seek in there heart.:):)

[Suzie]

I attend a ward where the Bishop speaks every single Sunday (no, I am not exaggerating) in sacrament meeting (and goes over time, possibly 15-20 minutes over) and I see a dramatic decrease in attendance.

I think members love him and he loves us but even too much love can kill.

[HiJolly]

A couple years ago, we were trying to figure out how to improve Sacrament meeting attendance in our Ward. One leader suggested that you have to make your programs good. Strive for quality in Sunday experiences, Youth programs that are well-organized and meaningful, quorums that have socials and regular service projects, etcetera. All clothed in kindness and love for people who attend, with a healthy dose of the Spirit.

Do you think there is a correlation between the quality of Ward programs in terms of planning and execution, and the Sacrament meeting attendance? Or are there other drivers that are more important?

I agree, there is a correlation. I can't imagine anything more important day-to-day, than the Gospel in action. Doctrine may give us the reason for it, but does not in and of itself benefit man as much as its application "where the rubber meets the road".

HiJolly

[NeuroTypical]

A couple years ago, we were trying to figure out how to improve Sacrament meeting attendance in our Ward.

So, my response is IMO only, and please forgive the bluntness:

Once we fall away from focusing on sharing the gospel and start worrying about how to get butts into seats for sacrament meeting, we lose something important.

Some free-wheeling non-demoninational churches figure they can get butts into seats with a band and energetic music. Some churches broadcast their stuff via small local AM broadcasts so folks can listen in the parking lot. Some churches have gone online, making podcasts available. With most of these efforts, they may genuinely be concerned with sharing the gospel, but I'm thinking that there's a financial incentive also - more butts in seats = more donations. That translates into our church also, I've noticed it especially on the Stake level - # of butts in seats during sacrament meeting = budget allocations, boudary changes, adding or closing wards, building needs, etc.

Open letter to any and all stake-level folks: I understand all that is important. I do not believe anyone not having those issues within their stewardship should have to give it a second thought. You're here to serve us. Stop trying to get us help you with your goals. You're supposed to be helping us more effectively share the gospel and incorporate it in our lives. Stop trying to get us to help you run the church like a profitable monster truck promotion.

(Again, LM's dumb opinion only. It's free, so by definition, you're getting the value you paid for.)

LM

[InquisitiveSoul]

Quality in Sunday Meetings helps a lot. It seems rather difficult to improve the speakers though. I don't like hearing one person speak every week, but some Sundays it's hard to sit through the talks. Since most people don't speak in front of others very often, their ability to speak or communicate is rather poor.

Sacrament doesn't need to be entertaining, but I do appreciate it when the speakers are informative. Personal experience is fine, but please back it up with doctrine as well. Giving scripture references is espcially helpful.

The key seems to be preparation. Are the speakers prepared? Are the instructors prepared? I sat through Elders Quorom a couple of weeks ago and the instructor had made copies of the lesson and marked the passages he was asking people to read. He asked good questions and was able to generate a lot of participation. The week after, a different instructor sat in a chair and read from his book. He asked a few questions but was unable to generate any real participation. He was trying but his preparation seemed rather weak.

[Blackmarch]

A couple years ago, we were trying to figure out how to improve Sacrament meeting attendance in our Ward. One leader suggested that you have to make your programs good. Strive for quality in Sunday experiences, Youth programs that are well-organized and meaningful, quorums that have socials and regular service projects, etcetera. All clothed in kindness and love for people who attend, with a healthy dose of the Spirit.

Do you think there is a correlation between the quality of Ward programs in terms of planning and execution, and the Sacrament meeting attendance? Or are there other drivers that are more important?

if quality = the desire of and for those who attand and share to be meaningful, appropriate, loving, and faithful then yes I think so.

[martybess]

So, my response is IMO only, and please forgive the bluntness:

Once we fall away from focusing on sharing the gospel and start worrying about how to get butts into seats for sacrament meeting, we lose something important.

Open letter to any and all stake-level folks: I understand all that is important. I do not believe anyone not having those issues within their stewardship should have to give it a second thought. You're here to serve us. Stop trying to get us help you with your goals. You're supposed to be helping us more effectively share the gospel and incorporate it in our lives. Stop trying to get us to help you run the church like a profitable monster truck promotion.

(Again, LM's dumb opinion only. It's free, so by definition, you're getting the value you paid for.)

LM

Out stake president loves to get down into the trenches with the rest of us. He is great at showing how to find the lost and how to show love.

I live a a huge stake in Utah.... our stake president has been to my house looking for lost sheep, my son. He has done this to hundreds of ppl in the stake. He goes out with a bishop to visit ward members every wed night. He know us all! This is the way to teach wards how to increase sac attendance. He is an awesome man!

..

[Danite]

Well I got to admit that I love good sacrament meeting talks and great music, and do agree that they increase sacrament attendance. Notwithstanding the fact they help, we need to ensure that the really reason for sacrament meeting is to take the sacrament and renew our covenants. Sacrament meeting being the only time and place we can do that. (we can't even renew our covenants in the temple) Having personally sat on the stand for years, I am very aware of the casual and sometimes ill reverent way some folks treat the sacrament. Personally I think until begin to take the sacrament seriously our sacrament meetings will be lacking attendance

[Guest mormonmusic]

What about the argument that you should be there to strengthen others, to receive personal revelation by opening your ears and mind to even the most elementary and even poorly presented talk or lesson on faith? Or that you should attend activities or programs to suppor the leaders who may be struggling in their calling? Doesn't that mean that quality of the programs aren't as relevant as everyone seems to be implying, or perhaps even secondary? And doesn't engagement in activities you've never done before as a leader or teacher etcetera heighten interest in Church, even though it may lead to poor quality for a while until people get the jist of their calling? Just cuious - this was why I was conflicted.

[martybess]

For what it's work here's my rant, of course I may be way off base.

Auxiliary programs are the brunches of the tree and if one spends to much time on the branches and it's fruits and not on strengthening the roots the fruits will die and thus poor attendance. To many ward focus way to much time on the brunches, all the programs and making sure they are running top notch and fail to see what is happening to the roots. To have a strong tree and good fruit you must start with the roots. How much time do we spend at making sure were doing a fantastic job in our calling? Hours a day? And how much time to we spend studying the scriptures, fasting, praying, going to the temple etc. a day? I would venture to say the time spent on our calling as den leader lets say far surpasses time spent on the roots. That's the problem, am I guilty yes.

President Spencer W. Kimball noted in general conference on Sept. 30, 1978: "There are far too few who are willing to pay the price, in discipline and hard work, to cultivate hardy roots. . . . Let us each cultivate deep roots so that we may secure the desired fruits of our . . . labors."

[rameumptom]

Elder Holland gave a remarkable talk a few years ago "A Teacher Come from God" that gives the secret to a packed Sacrament meeting.

He stated:

In recent months President Gordon B. Hinckley has called on us to hold our people close to the Church, especially the newly converted member. In issuing this call President Hinckley has reminded that we all need at least three things to remain firmly in the faith—a friend, a responsibility, and "[nourishing] by the good word of God."

For each of us to "come unto Christ," to keep His commandments and follow His example back to the Father is surely the highest and holiest purpose of human existence. To help others do that as well—to teach, persuade, and prayerfully lead them to walk that path of redemption also—surely that must be the second most significant task in our lives. Perhaps that is why President David O. McKay once said, "No greater responsibility can rest upon any man [or woman] than to be a teacher of God's children." We are, in fact, all somewhat like the man of Ethiopia to whom Philip was sent. Like him, we may know enough to reach out for religion. We may invest ourselves in the scriptures. We may even give up our earthly treasures, but without sufficient instruction we may miss the meaning of all this and the requirements that still lie before us. So we cry with this man of great authority, "How can [we understand,] except some [teacher] should guide [us]?"

Do we teach the gospel "by the Spirit of truth?" He has inquired. Or do we teach it "some other way? And if it be by some other way," He warns, "it is not of God." In language echoing other commandments, He has said, "If ye receive not the Spirit ye shall not teach."

No eternal learning can take place without that quickening of the Spirit from heaven. So, parents, teachers, and leaders, we must face our tasks the way Moses faced the promised land. Knowing he could not succeed any other way, Moses said to Jehovah, "If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence."

That is what our members really want when they gather in a meeting or come into a classroom anyway. Most people don't come to church looking merely for a few new gospel facts or to see old friends, though all of that is important. They come seeking a spiritual experience. They want peace. They want their faith fortified and their hope renewed. They want, in short, to be nourished by the good word of God, to be strengthened by the powers of heaven. Those of us who are called upon to speak or teach or lead have an obligation to help provide that, as best we possibly can. We can only do that if we ourselves are striving to know God, if we ourselves are continually seeking the light of His Only Begotten Son. Then, if our hearts are right, if we are as clean as we can be, if we have prayed and wept and prepared and worried until we don't know what more we can do, God can say to us as He did to Alma and the sons of Mosiah: "Lift up thy head and rejoice. ... I will give unto you success."

And here's the clincher:

I am just simple enough to think that if we continue to teach them—with the same Christlike spirit, conviction, doctrine, and personal interest the missionaries have shown them—new converts will not only stay with us but, quite literally, could not be kept away.

And new converts would include anyone needing to be converted, including old less-active members.

We probably do not need more programs. Youth and other activities are supposed to support the family, not supplant it. More activities means tearing the family apart, as they rush to attend everything they feel obligated to attend. Yet they still are not spiritually nourished.

First, the bishopric has to have the proper focus. It isn't in the activities. The focus must be in the spirituality of the ward, beginning in Sacrament meeting and temple attendance. A bishop will get whatever he expects and asks of those in the ward. If he allows loud interruptions and poor attendance to Sacrament, people will oblige. But if he sends home teachers out every week to ask those who were not in attendance if they need assistance in making it the following week, you will see Sacrament attendance rise.

And if the bishop prayerfully selects doctrinal topics, and then prayerfully assigns them to the most spiritual and best speakers, the members will keep coming. I am not a believer in having to give every member a chance to speak once a year. I believe the Spirit should guide the bishop, but that the bishop needs to seek out the best for Sacrament. Let the other members learn and prepare in teacher development classes how to teach prior to teaching in Sacrament.

The bishop can ask the speaker to prepare the talk, either an outline or written, a couple weeks prior to the Sacrament meeting, and then guidance on improving it with the Spirit.

These are the ways to improve Sacrament attendance.

[rameumptom]

One other note, years ago in a stake meeting, Elder Holland told us that we need to get back to the day when our pulpits were on fire. Perhaps we need to study the talks given years ago in General Conference by Orson Pratt, George Q. Cannon, and others, and see what they said to create that fire.

[Traveler]

My opinion - it is all about love and compassion. Happy people enjoying each other's company and fellowship is the heart of the gospel plan. Get a clue my fellow saints - it is not about programs - its about people.

I think this is interesting - often wards make a big deal about reverence and being quiet in the chaple. But you know what - I really think the Savior ment his house to be a place where those that really care about each other meet and express their love and concerns. And I think it can be done reverently.

The Traveler

[FifthElement]

A couple years ago, we were trying to figure out how to improve Sacrament meeting attendance in our Ward. One leader suggested that you have to make your programs good. Strive for quality in Sunday experiences, Youth programs that are well-organized and meaningful, quorums that have socials and regular service projects, etcetera. All clothed in kindness and love for people who attend, with a healthy dose of the Spirit.

Do you think there is a correlation between the quality of Ward programs in terms of planning and execution, and the Sacrament meeting attendance? Or are there other drivers that are more important?

Just my thoughts.......I go to Sacrament to be spiritually feed, not to be "jumped" on, fussed at, or chastised. (my bishop does that constantly). I'm hard enough on myself about not doing everything right in my life without him constantly reminding me.

[candyprpl]

How 'bout the ppl who leave right after sacrament and then complain that they don't feel like they are being fellowshipped?

Or the child that is going to be turning 8 soon but never gets to go to primary?

I guess this is the other side of the coin.

I can see that maybe sometimes poorly taught second and third hours might play a role in declining sacrament attendance -- but the bottom line on that (IMO) is the person who is falling away is the one losing out. I know, easy answer. If auxiliary leaders/teachers would embrace, magnify their callings --everyone would be engaged in doing the Lord's work. And it's not about blame, it's about personal responsibility -- what's my attitude?

[Traveler]

Just my thoughts.......I go to Sacrament to be spiritually feed, not to be "jumped" on, fussed at, or chastised. (my bishop does that constantly). I'm hard enough on myself about not doing everything right in my life without him constantly reminding me.

I was teaching our High Priest group one Sunday and I ask the question why each of us was there that day. A member of our Stake Presidency was there and he answered much as you did - He said he came to be spiritually fed – to be uplifted.

I asked him - Then if you are not spiritually fed you will no longer come? There was among us a member that had been excommunicated and every one there knew of his struggle. I asked him why he was present. He said he had made a promise to G-d that he would change his life and be present – every Sunday. I learned a lot from him that day.

I am so grateful to those that struggle and make life a matter of covenant and promise – whoever you are – I want to be like you.

The Traveler

[Hemidakota]

One other note, years ago in a stake meeting, Elder Holland told us that we need to get back to the day when our pulpits were on fire. Perhaps we need to study the talks given years ago in General Conference by Orson Pratt, George Q. Cannon, and others, and see what they said to create that fire.

Totally agree...not only the pulpits on FIRE but bring the Spirit with them. I noticed our ward two weeks ago did not have it.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Hemidakota

[martybess]

There was among us a member that had been excommunicated and every one there knew of his struggle.

I have wished many times it was like this normally!, openly talking about struggles like this in HP group meetings. So many there could help as well as it helping the one with the struggles. Why can we not be like this???? I think this must of be a special gift or something like that????? Know who needs a friend, and say something like "glad to see you sister how is your cat doing" or whatever is one of their interests. The person trying to repent for serious things and especially those we notice who seems alone, no one talks to them and they just slip in and go home. Are we going to church to be with our buddies and blaa blaa the meeting away??? Why are we going??? Is the only reason to be spiritually uplifted as the stk pres counselor said?? Does it not say to strengthen each other???

..

[Hemidakota]

My opinion - it is all about love and compassion. Happy people enjoying each other's company and fellowship is the heart of the gospel plan. Get a clue my fellow saints - it is not about programs - its about people.

I think this is interesting - often wards make a big deal about reverence and being quiet in the chaple. But you know what - I really think the Savior ment his house to be a place where those that really care about each other meet and express their love and concerns. And I think it can be done reverently.

The Traveler

It is about the Sacrament [renewal of baptismal covenant] and the Savior. This is the only reason why I do go...

[martybess]

It is about the Sacrament [renewal of baptismal covenant] and the Savior. This is the only reason why I do go...

Hemi what about these scriptures??

Moro. 6: 5-6

5 And the church did meet together oft, to fast and to pray, and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls.

6 And they did meet together oft to partake of bread and wine, in remembrance of the Lord Jesus.

4 Ne. 1: 12

12 And they did not walk any more after the performances and ordinances of the law of Moses; but they did walk after the commandments which they had received from their Lord and their God, continuing in fasting and prayer, and in meeting together oft both to pray and to hear the word of the Lord.

....

[Guest mormonmusic]

I have wished many times it was like this normally!, openly talking about struggles like this in HP group meetings. So many there could help as well as it helping the one with the struggles. Why can we not be like this???? I think this must of be a special gift or something like that????? Know who needs a friend, and say something like "glad to see you sister how is your cat doing" or whatever is one of their interests. The person trying to repent for serious things and especially those we notice who seems alone, no one talks to them and they just slip in and go home. Are we going to church to be with our buddies and blaa blaa the meeting away??? Why are we going??? Is the only reason to be spiritually uplifted as the stk pres counselor said?? Does it not say to strengthen each other???

..

The reason I don't talk about my struggles in these meetings is I don't like to hear them brought up at some unexpected point in the future -- and not on my terms. Sometimes I've expended great effort to put the struggle out of my mind, only to be reminded about it by someone I might've mentioned it to previously.

Their motive may well be caring, which is to be appreciated, but I'd rather think about and talk about my struggles on my own terms and in my own time, not someone else's.So that's why I'm very private about such things.

There are other families who are very "proud' in the gospel as well, and don't like their private concerns to be made known to others.

I personally think one of the greatest ways you can make meetings effective is to learn to master the 6 ways of inviting the spirit (prayer, scripture, spiritual experiences, testimony, music, expressions of love to God and man).

[Moksha]

Or that you should attend activities or programs to support the leaders who may be struggling in their calling? Doesn't that mean that quality of the programs aren't as relevant as everyone seems to be implying, or perhaps even secondary?

That reminds me of a mental health client, who while sitting in one of countless therapy sessions, suddenly realizes that the therapy sessions are more part of a work program for the therapists and less of a source of therapy for the clients. Regardless of the true primary beneficiary, hopefully both can get something out of the experience.