3 Nephi 17

[Justice]

Has anyone discovered the symbolisms in 3 Nephi 17 yet? (and 18-19)

If you don't want to talk about it openly, please send me a private message, or loosely hint at it here.

I'm just really curious how many have seen it.

I'll check back in a few days.

[Just_A_Guy]

This probably isn't what you're getting at, but 3 Ne 19:17-36 makes a very interesting contrast to Mark 14:34-41.

[Hemidakota]

Which specific verses/group of verses are you after in chapter 17, 18, and 19?

[michaeljohn]

Could you please itemise the symbolism?

[Hemidakota]

May have to wait until Tuesday... :)

But, a good example of symbols seen within 3 Nephi 17, "And he took their little children, one by one, and blessed them, and prayed unto the Father for them. And he spake unto the multitude, and said unto them: Behold your little ones. And as they looked to behold they cast their eyes towards heaven, and they saw the heavens open, and they saw angels descending out of heaven as it were in the midst of fire; and they came down and encircled those little ones about, and they were encircled about with fire; and the angels did minister unto them." (3 Nephi 17:21-24)

In that dramatic experience we learn the meaning of the Savior's earlier instructions. We literally see what it means to "receive these things," to "inherit the kingdom of God" as heaven and children become, for a few brief mortal moments, one.

Another one, "And it came to pass when they were all baptized and had come up out of the water, the Holy Ghost did fall upon them, and they were filled with the Holy Ghost and with fire. And behold, they were encircled about as if it were by fire; and it came down from heaven, and the multitude did witness it, and did bear record; and angels did come down out of heaven and did minister unto them. And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him; and his countenance did smile upon them, and the light of his countenance did shine upon them, and behold they were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness, yea, even there could be nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof. (3 Nephi 19:13-14, 25)"

A similar bracketing can be found in the balance between the lament and mourning with which the destruction ends and the shout of Hosanna with which their first testimony of Christ culminates:

And in another place they were heard to cry and mourn, saying:

O that we had repented before this great and terrible day, and had not killed and stoned the prophets, and cast them out; then would our mothers and our fair daughters, and our children have been spared, and not have been buried up in that great city Moronihah. And thus were the howlings of the people great and terrible. (3 Nephi 8:25)

Edited May 28, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

Here is another one in 3 Nephi 17:25, "And it came to pass that Jesus blessed them as they did pray unto him; and his countenance did smile upon them, and the light of his countenance did shine upon them, and behold the were as white as the countenance and also the garments of Jesus; and behold the whiteness thereof did exceed all the whiteness, yea, even there could be nothing upon earth so white as the whiteness thereof."

In bold, there are two ways in which the Lord's countenance did "shine upon them", one literal and the other symbolic.

Context meaning of this verse, we can see that there was a literal transfiguration of the disciples in that they were filled with light and their countenances shone with light like that of the Savior. They were so filled with the Spirit that they shone with a literal light and glory. Look at other references in the scriptures, example, Exodus 34:29, Daniel 3:22-27, Matthew 17:2, and Helaman 5:23.

Symbolic meaning, we experience the countenance of the Lord shining upon us, in comparing with the Nephites, when we fell of the Savior's perfect love for us, His compassion, and his approbation. Though, we may not literally in this life, see the smiling face of God, but feel the smile and joy of the Lord as we please him through service and obedience.

[Hemidakota]

In the same chapter, 17:18, it reads, "And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto ,Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God."

Previously in 3 Nephi 13:9, the Savior instructed the Nephites concerning the proper language of prayer. The Nephites knew, they should pray "unto the Father, in my name" (see 3 Nephi 18:23), but under the influence of the Spirit they prayed to Jesus instead, "calling him their Lord and their God." The Savior was both 'Redeemer' and 'God.'

Nephites in reverential worship, directed their prayers to the Savior, and you will noticed, He did not stop or correct the Nephites. Some would questions this type of behavior but it appears, most appropriate because the Savior was a resurrected GOD and stood among the Nephites (see 3 Nephi 17:22).

Apostle Bruce R. McConkie wrote;

"Jesus was present before them as the symbol of the Father. Seeing him, it was as though they saw the Father; praying to him, it was as though they prayed to the Father. It was a special and unique situation that as far as we know has taken place only once on earth during all the long ages of the Lord's hand-dealings with his children." ('Promised Messiah', p. 561)

I concur with McConkie's assessment on what the Nephites witnesses was the FATHER.

[mikbone]

Job 38:7 ?

[Hemidakota]

Are you referring to this verse, "When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

[mikbone]

Are you referring to this verse, "When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

That would be the one. Yes.

[Hemidakota]

Let me refer you back to Nibley's statement,

Almost always when the plan is mentioned something is said about its glad reception, "when the Morning Stars sang together and all the Sons of God shouted for joy." The great year-rites, common to all ancient societies, are a rehearsal of the Creation, usually presented in dramatic form; invariably the rites end with a great and joyful acclamation. 55 Thus the concluding lines of the Shabako stone, with which we began our story: "So all the gods and all the spirits came together to hail God upon his throne ... and they rejoiced before him in his temple, the source of all good things." 56 And the Mesopotamian Enuma Elish ends with an exhortation to all men to "come to this place and rejoice and celebrate the festival," hailing God for his wonderful deeds and his loving kindness, even as was done "once above." 57 In the Asmavedha, the oldest recorded rites of India, the king is joyfully hailed at the Creation as "the Morning Star," a title that often occurs in this connection. 58 This is a reminder that the question put to Job, "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" was not a rhetorical question at all, for Job is expected to give the right answer —"answer, for thou knowest!" This is confirmed in the testament of Job, where that prophet says, "The Lord spake with me in power, and showed me the past and future." 59 The same writing recommends study of the hymns of Job's daughter, designating them as inspired poems. The word poema, meaning literally creation, owes its prominence, as Walter Otto has shown, to the circumstance that the first poets were all inspired people who sang one and the same song, namely the Song of the Creation: that was the standard ritual hymn at all the ancient cult centers where the Muses were housed and the royal year-rites rehearsed and performed. 60 ('Timely and the Timeless', by Hugh Nibley)

Reference Notes:

55. W. Neisser, in American Oriental Soc. Jnl., XLV (1925), 287.

56. Text in Jewish Quart. Rev. XIII (1900), 112.

57. W.F. Otto, Die Musen und der göliche Ursprung des Singens und Sagens (Dü 123eldorf-Köln: E. Diederich, 1955).

58. See the discussion by R.H. Charles, The Book of Jubilees (London: 1902), pp. li-lii.

59. I Enoch 61:6-10; 69:25-27.

60. DST XI, 25, 61.

I don't believe as other scholars of the Sons of the Morning Stars phrased here were the two thirds of the host heaven. But a smaller elected group of people as described in the Book of Abraham, chapter 3, that were referred to as the Sons of the Morning Stars.

[mikbone]

I don't believe as other scholars of the Sons of the Morning Stars phrased here were the two thirds of the host heaven. But a smaller elected group of people as described in the Book of Abraham, chapter 3, that were referred to as the Sons of the Morning Stars.

Ok.

I'm just putting forth my guess that I think Justice sees a connection between 3 Ne 17 and the the war in heaven.

Im not saying that I see the connection that clearly...

[Hemidakota]

Justice?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Has anyone discovered the symbolisms in 3 Nephi 17 yet? (and 18-19)

If you don't want to talk about it openly, please send me a private message, or loosely hint at it here.

I'm just really curious how many have seen it.

I'll check back in a few days.

I think there is a lot of hinting and symbolism as to the typical blessings and ordinances that we go through in the gospel, from the baby blessing and given a name (chapter 17) and the sacrament (18) and the baptism, receiving of the Holy Ghost and even greater ordinances like those found in the temple that couldn't be written down in chapter 19 (...garments of Jesus Christ). :)

[Justice]

Very good comments! Sorry it took so long.

Yes! Seminarysnoozer! Even as early as chapter 17. Here, watch how I see this unfolding...

Chapter 17:

He has just taught them many words in the previous few chapters, and at this point is about to leave. He perceives that they are weak, and that they cannot understand all the words He was commanded by the Father to speak. So, next He tells them to bring their sick and afflicted of all kind, including the deaf (blind also).

Isn't it interesting that He spoke the words in the previous chapters having not healed them first? The deaf could not hear Him. There is something significant in what is coming.

8 For I perceive that ye desire that I should show unto you what I have done unto your brethren at Jerusalem, for I see that your faith is sufficient that I should heal you.

Do you think that He is specifically talking about "showing" them how He can heal? The more I pondered on this the more I realized there was more. He is healing them so He CAN show them what He showed to the people at Jerusalem.

Notice He says they cannot understand all His words. Then, notice where He says He is going to continue to teach them what the Father commanded Him to:

Chapter 20:

10 And it came to pass that when they had all given glory unto Jesus, he said unto them: Behold now I finish the commandment which the Father hath commanded me concerning this people, who are a remnant of the house of Israel.

Then, notice the text that follows is congruent with what He was teaching them before chapter 17.

So, what took place between the beginning of 17 and verse 10 of chapter 20 that "prepared them" so they could understand the rest of His words?

OK, I'll spoil. In short, they were baptized so they could be given the gift of the Holy Ghost!

Watch how it unfolds...

Chapter 17:

11 And it came to pass that he commanded that their little children should be brought.

12 So they brought their little children and set them down upon the ground round about him, and Jesus stood in the midst; and the multitude gave way till they had all been brought unto him.

13 And it came to pass that when they had all been brought, and Jesus stood in the midst, he commanded the multitude that they should kneel down upon the ground.

14 And it came to pass that when they had knelt upon the ground, Jesus groaned within himself, and said: Father, I am troubled because of the wickedness of the people of the house of Israel.

15 And when he had said these words, he himself also knelt upon the earth; and behold he prayed unto the Father, and the things which he prayed cannot be written, and the multitude did bear record who heard him.

16 And after this manner do they bear record: The eye hath never seen, neither hath the ear heard, before, so great and marvelous things as we saw and heard Jesus speak unto the Father;

17 And no tongue can speak, neither can there be written by any man, neither can the hearts of men conceive so great and marvelous things as we both saw and heard Jesus speak; and no one can conceive of the joy which filled our souls at the time we heard him pray for us unto the Father.

18 And it came to pass that when Jesus had made an end of praying unto the Father, he arose; but so great was the joy of the multitude that they were overcome.

19 And it came to pass that Jesus spake unto them, and bade them arise.

This is the red letter edition, Jesus words being red. Isn't it amazing that so few of His words were quoted, but there are signs of them DOING things... like kneeling upon the ground. In other places in the Book of Mormon, falling to the earth, or kneeling to the ground, is a symbol of the part of the plan that required mortality, and for all men to die. Rising from the earth, or rising from the ground is symbolic of the resurrection and even judgment and eternal glory.

Now, from so few words here, it appears they are involved in some kind of ritual, or reinacting some events from the Plan of Salvation. Notice how Jesus symbolically portrays the atonement (in red letters). If you read those verses with an open mind, knowing that they were forbidden to write everything, can you see some sort of Temple ceremony?

If the people could not understand the words alone, it would stand to reason that symbols would teach better, or prepare someone to receive the words. There is much more evidence there, but I'll move ahead.

In chapter 18, Jesus performs another deeply symbolic ordinance, to remind them of the symbols they just saw. This symbol was to be performed often. He passes bread and wine! Notice how He has them all sit on the ground again, and after raise from the ground? And, notice now when they describe this event they just say "the things we heard" and never mention seeing anything.

Then, notice when they take the sacrament the next time He has them all stand, or arise, before they take it.

They are then baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost...

and THEN He proceeds with His teaching.

Now, think back to the first time you left the Temple. Would you say the things you heard were remarakble? Or, would you more accurately say the things you saw and heard were remarakeble? This is how these people described what they saw and heard, and my guess is, participated in. He needed to heal them all, lame, dumb, deaf, blind, in order for them all to participate.

I skimmed 100 miles per hour, only touching a few highlights...

Anyone else see anything interesting along those lines?

Edited June 1, 2010 by Justice

[Seminarysnoozer]

Very good comments! Sorry it took so long.

Yes! Seminarysnoozer! Even as early as chapter 17. Here, watch how I see this unfolding...

Do I get a prize?

[Justice]

We're having tres leche cake tonight for dessert (my son's favorite)...you're welcome to a piece. :)

[Hemidakota]

Authorship would be the descriptor of what is being perform, whether it is hearing the word or seeing it as a first-hand witness. Is the person recording this event, in the back when the crowd was at least 2500 people? Or later recorded, after hearing it from other sources, records the event for record. A good case in point, was Mark. He was a scribe to the Twelve. His written gospel could be Peter's narration since Mark often accompanied Peter.

[Hemidakota]

What I was looking for to what specific versus and chapters in 3rd Nephi you were asking about? There are numerous symbolic meaning from chapter 8 to 29. However, since it was answer, that is a blessing.