"Soul" = spirit and spirit + body = "soul"


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I've always had a hard time understanding this scripture. D&C 88:15 "15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man." and yet the Gospel Topics definition on the LDS website of soul is; "in scripture, the term soul is used as a synonym for spirit to describe a person in four different phases of his or her eternal existence." Like in Abraham 3:23; "And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born."

So, D&C 88:15 is kind of like saying 1 + 1 = 1. And then in Alma 40:23 it says; "The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame."

Well, if the soul is the spirit plus the body, how is that going to be restored to another body? So, in this case it seems that the "soul" is just referring to the spirit alone.

I guess the question is why do we use the term "soul" at all, when in reality what is meant is spirit? Isn't "spirit" good enough? Or is there some added significance to the term "soul"? And D&C 88:15 makes it seem like "soul" is something more than the spirit alone.

My feeling is that the word "soul" is used to describe the full faculties of an individual depending on what circumstance or period of life they are in. In the pre-existence the "soul" would be synonymous to "spirit" as there is no body. In this life, the "soul" is the combination of the effects from the spirit and the body. In the spirit world it is again by itself so the spirit once again equals the soul. And then once we receive a glorified body it goes back to being a spirit plus a body equals a "soul."

And then we have scriptures like Abraham 5:7; " 7 And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul." that make it sound like "soul" is not an appropriate term for a pre-existence person because it is not a "living soul" until it is added to the body. So, does that mean the "soul" is dead in the pre-existence?

These are confusing and interchangeable terms. What makes the term "soul" any different than "spirit"? What is the value of using the term "soul" over "spirit" or vice versa?

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After carefully in reading the D&C 88 verse 15, I would add verse 14 since it is talking about the redemption of the soul through the resurrection. Yet, we see various usage of this term by different observers and authors.

Redemption. A person is released from the bondage of spiritual and mortal death/sin through the obedience and sacrifice of our Savior; our Redeemer.

Resurrection. Resurrection is the inseparable union of body and spirit. But I am cautious in adding the term intelligence since it was before the unionship of our intelligence and spirit body. Abraham only speaks after the spiritual creation of FATHER’s children.

Soul. It is seen in many instances with varied scriptures, the word soul is used as a synonym for spirit. Our unembodied spirits in the premortal life are called souls (Abraham 3:23). This could be the reasoning of this term when placing intelligences within those pure material bodies. This would constitute a soul in a sense being in that state. It is also noted, in Alma 40 (11-14), disembodied spirits awaiting the day of resurrection in paradise or hell. Later, we see back in the Book of Abraham, the mortal body is also called a soul (Abraham 5:7). This single verse gives another definition in defining a soul as a resurrected being.

This is my reasoning with the mathethical equation of the soul:

SOUL = Intelligence + Spirit body to house the intelligence + phsyical body to house the other two.

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This is one of those instances where a single word can have multiple definitions depending on context and/or audience. It may be inconvenient, but it's reality. The best way to avoid confusion is to clarify what sense of the word you mean to imply when you use it (if you don't think it's obvious).

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I prefer to think of it this way:

Human being = body + soul + spirit

Sometimes even the dictionary can be very informative:

bod·y - The entire material or physical structure of an organism, especially of a human or animal.

The physical part of a person.

soul - The animating and vital principle in humans, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity.

A person's emotional or moral nature…

spir·it - The principle of conscious life; the vital principle in humans, animating the body or mediating between body and soul.

M.

Edited by Maureen
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I prefer to think of it this way:

Human being = body + soul + spirit

Sometimes even the dictionary can be very informative:

bod·y - The entire material or physical structure of an organism, especially of a human or animal.

The physical part of a person.

soul - The animating and vital principle in humans, credited with the faculties of thought, action, and emotion and often conceived as an immaterial entity.

A person's emotional or moral nature…

spir·it - The principle of conscious life; the vital principle in humans, animating the body or mediating between body and soul.

M.

This is exactly why it is confusing to me. If you read the definition you gave for soul, I cannot see any distinguishing part of that description from what we commonly call the spirit.

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This is my reasoning with the mathethical equation of the soul:

SOUL = Intelligence + Spirit body to house the intelligence + phsyical body to house the other two.

So, in the spirit world, those people are not souls?

If you say they are, (which at this point I would say they are because I see no difference between soul and spirit) then what difference does the body make? The scripture in D&C 88 seems to imply that there is something of added value to the spirit by being combined with the body to make it a "soul". But what is that something more than you would describe the spirit as having alone? It can't be physical, because spirits before they get a body are also called souls. Maybe souls are those that are on track to get a body or have gotten a body, whereas those that were cast out couldn't be called souls. ... I don't know.

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Muted point on what constitutes a soul in the spirit world; it was described by Abraham being an observer on what was being seen. A spirit sees spirit is no different from a mortal seeing another mortal and calling it a soul. It is just an observational viewpoint here.

Most people believe this spirit frame is just that. For me, this is not consistent with creational story of being formed in the image of GOD from another life form.

Importunacy placed upon this mortal housing habitation, are the physical qualities of physical senses we receive and the necessary associated impact it has on our mortal state would be the key. If not, we can never be like our FATHER and MOTHER.

Our boundless inheritance of the past until now, is just adding another layer of our overall being.

Interesting remark by late President Marion G., Second Counselor in the First Presidency;

"The Origin of Man - In origin, man is a son of God. The spirits of men “are begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:24). Through that birth process, self-existing intelligence was organized into individual spirit beings." LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Worth of Souls

Another great article; LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: The Godhead, Mankind, and the Creation

Adding one more from my brother and close friend; President Spencer W. Kimball;

"God has taken these intelligences, given to them spirit bodies, and given them instructions and training. Then he proceeded to create a world for them and sent them as spirits to obtain a mortal body, for which he made preparation. And when they were upon the earth, he gave them instructions on how to go about developing and conducting their lives to make them perfect, so they could return to their Father in heaven after their transitions. Then came the periods of time when souls were to be placed upon the earth and born to parents who were permitted to furnish the bodies. But no parent has ever yet on this earth been the parent of a spirit, because we are so far yet from perfection. Remember what was said a while ago, that “As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become.”They came with the definite understanding that they could return to become like God and go forward in their great development and progress.

Could you produce a spirit? Has anyone whom you know ever produced a spirit? This is a power not given to mortal man, so there is much for us to learn.

“We have not the power in the flesh to create and bring forth or produce a spirit [with all the vaunted knowledge of the experts in the world, this has not been given to man]; but we have the power to produce [with the help of God] a temporal body [for our children]. The germ of this, God has placed within us. … Herein, brethren, you can perceive that we have not finished, and cannot finish our work, while we live here [on the earth], no more than Jesus did while he was in the flesh.” (JD, 15:137.)" LDS.org - Ensign Article - Our Great Potential

Edited by Hemidakota
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McConkie did a nice job in Mormon Doctrine

1) Spirit beings are souls. The 2 terms are synonymous. Pre mortal souls Abraham 3:23 and Disembodids souls Alma 40:11-15.

2) A mortal soul consists of a body and spirit united in a temporary or mortal union. Abraham 5:7

3) An immortal soul is a resurrected personage. D&C 88:15-16, Alma 40:23

I also like his defination of types of Angels

1) Pre-existent Spirits, Revelations 12:7, Moses 5:6-8

2) Translated Beings, 3 Ne 28:30, D&C 7; 27:12-13

3) Spirits of Just Men Made Perfect, D&C 76:66-69, Heb 12: 22-24, D&C 129. Spirits of men who have worked out their salvation, but are awaiting the day of the resurrection.

4) Resurrected Personages, Matthew 27:52-53, many other scriptures. Angles with bodies of flesh and bone.

5) Righteous Mortal Men, Genesis 19 (The two angles that rescued Lot from Sodom). Inspired version of Genesis 19 is a better source though.

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Muted point on what constitutes a soul in the spirit world; it was described by Abraham being an observer on what was being seen. A spirit sees spirit is no different from a mortal seeing another mortal and calling it a soul. It is just an observational viewpoint here.

Most people believe this spirit frame is just that. For me, this is not consistent with creational story of being formed in the image of GOD from another life form.

Importunacy placed upon this mortal housing habitation, are the physical qualities of physical senses we receive and the necessary associated impact it has on our mortal state would be the key. If not, we can never be like our FATHER and MOTHER.

Our boundless inheritance of the past until now, is just adding another layer of our overall being.

Interesting remark by late President Marion G., Second Counselor in the First Presidency;

Another great article; LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Restoration of Major Doctrines through Joseph Smith: The Godhead, Mankind, and the Creation

Adding one more from my brother and close friend; President Spencer W. Kimball;

I'm not sure why you are saying it's a mute point when in Alma 40 it says that the soul will be restored with the body and yet you are saying the soul is the combination of the intelligence plus the spirit body plus the physical body. According to your definition then, a being consisting of intelligence housed in a spirit body housed in a physical body will be combined with another body? I know you don't think that but that is why that definition you gave is not adequate.

Or are you saying "soul" is just a way to refer to any individual whatever the form they happen to be in at the moment and that is why it is a muted point? .... I don't know, seems like there is more importance given to the term than that.

You believe that intelligence is housed in a spirit body. Is that housing permanent, immortal so to speak? If it is possible that spirit bodies are not permanent than that may be a way that spirits and souls differ. As souls are destined, whatever part of the path they are on, to become immortal. (just throwing out one possible way they are different)

Would we call the spirits that were cast out, 'souls'? That is a tricky question because if you say yes than the definition given in D&C 88 doesn't make sense. It would only make sense if those that were cast out are spirits only, not souls, including Satan.

(BTW, Kimball is your close friend? cool!)

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There are other terms we could quote from scripture that are used to define more than one thing.

Like the term hell... it has a general meaning, but it also has a very specific meaning.

Soul is the same; it has a general menaing, but it also has a specific meaning.

The body is physical matter and is animated by a spirit. There is no life in the physical body unless there is a spirit present.

The spirit of a man can exist independant of the body.

But, to receive a fulness of joy, a man must be both body and spirit.

From my studies it appears the combination of a body and spirit is only termed a "soul" when it is eternally connected, or after the resurrection. Possibly even only a glorified and perfected man (body and spirit) can be called a soul. I think in some instances they use the term soul to describe a man or his spirit before the resurrection. That makes it confusing. There are places in scripture where some prophets use the term soul interchangably with spirit, and that further complicates it.

My 2 cents.

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McConkie did a nice job in Mormon Doctrine

1) Spirit beings are souls. The 2 terms are synonymous. Pre mortal souls Abraham 3:23 and Disembodids souls Alma 40:11-15.

.

I've read through all of that but still it is hard to interpret D&C 88:15 if spirit and soul is synonymous. Why would it say that the spirit and the body are the soul of man if the spirit is synonymous with the soul. That doesn't makes sense. Why not say "the spirit is the soul of man"? What added value does the body give to the spirit to make it called a "soul" as opposed to the "soul" it was before that individual received the body or even after this life when the spirit is hanging out in the spirit world? In all three setting it is a soul, right? So, why call the soul the combination of the spirit and the body? If we really think they are synonymous then the soul of man is his/her spirit period. ... doesn't have to be spirit plus body. I am trying to understand why D&C 88:15 says it that way.

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There are other terms we could quote from scripture that are used to define more than one thing.

Like the term hell... it has a general meaning, but it also has a very specific meaning.

Soul is the same; it has a general menaing, but it also has a specific meaning.

The body is physical matter and is animated by a spirit. There is no life in the physical body unless there is a spirit present.

The spirit of a man can exist independant of the body.

But, to receive a fulness of joy, a man must be both body and spirit.

From my studies it appears the combination of a body and spirit is only termed a "soul" when it is eternally connected, or after the resurrection. Possibly even only a glorified and perfected man (body and spirit) can be called a soul. I think in some instances they use the term soul to describe a man or his spirit before the resurrection. That makes it confusing. There are places in scripture where some prophets use the term soul interchangably with spirit, and that further complicates it.

My 2 cents.

From that then you would say that Satan is not a soul and all those that were cast out are not souls, right?

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From that then you would say that Satan is not a soul and all those that were cast out are not souls, right?

Correct. But, that doesn't mean they weren't called souls at some point, due to the topic of this thread... seeing how the word soul is used in a broader sense at times.

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The body is physical matter and is animated by a spirit. There is no life in the physical body unless there is a spirit present.

One side note, with this sentence ... you would say for sure, without a doubt then that when a mother feels her child "animate" the body within her during pregnancy that there is a spirit present, right? Even if that baby is a stillbirth? So, you probably would be in favor of giving stillbirths records in the church?

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I've read through all of that but still it is hard to interpret D&C 88:15 if spirit and soul is synonymous. Why would it say that the spirit and the body are the soul of man if the spirit is synonymous with the soul. That doesn't makes sense. Why not say "the spirit is the soul of man"? What added value does the body give to the spirit to make it called a "soul" as opposed to the "soul" it was before that individual received the body or even after this life when the spirit is hanging out in the spirit world? In all three setting it is a soul, right? So, why call the soul the combination of the spirit and the body? If we really think they are synonymous then the soul of man is his/her spirit period. ... doesn't have to be spirit plus body. I am trying to understand why D&C 88:15 says it that way.

Yeah its distracting to say to least. Thats why I added the list of McConkie's defination of Angels, it goes through all types of souls that I can think of.

D&C 88:15 does say that the spirit and the body are the soul of man. Thus if you are a Man your soul consists of a spirit + body.

Satan's soul is just his spirit.

Elohim's soul is the combination of his spirit + immortal body.

I think of the Soul as the essence of the person. When my spirit entered my body it must have had an effect upon the essence of what is me thus my soul changed. And hopefully in the future if I play my cards right I will get the chance to become a Celestial being. That perfect body will also have an effect upon my spirit which will make me different I would assume.

Just thinking outloud.

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I'm not sure why you are saying it's a mute point when in Alma 40 it says that the soul will be restored with the body and yet you are saying the soul is the combination of the intelligence plus the spirit body plus the physical body. According to your definition then, a being consisting of intelligence housed in a spirit body housed in a physical body will be combined with another body? I know you don't think that but that is why that definition you gave is not adequate.

Or are you saying "soul" is just a way to refer to any individual whatever the form they happen to be in at the moment and that is why it is a muted point? .... I don't know, seems like there is more importance given to the term than that.

You believe that intelligence is housed in a spirit body. Is that housing permanent, immortal so to speak? If it is possible that spirit bodies are not permanent than that may be a way that spirits and souls differ. As souls are destined, whatever part of the path they are on, to become immortal. (just throwing out one possible way they are different)

Would we call the spirits that were cast out, 'souls'? That is a tricky question because if you say yes than the definition given in D&C 88 doesn't make sense. It would only make sense if those that were cast out are spirits only, not souls, including Satan.

(BTW, Kimball is your close friend? cool!)

Notable observation of the author in viewing his vision’s scenery. How would you describe it when viewing spirits in the spirit? Have you ever had a dream being taken to location done in the spirit and cannot tell the difference whether what you are viewing is not spirit or even physical? Can you describe it another way being Abraham or Moses shoes without having any background in science? It is muted when many here, are not privy to be firsthand witness to this type of an event.

What constitutes eternal permanency, is it eternal material, whether it is the ego (intelligence), spirit body, the physical immortal body? I believe you will find the answer in D&C 93 or the King Follet discourse.

For us, living in mortality, a ‘SOUL’ is merely a combination of physical shell to house a spirit shell, which houses a intelligence, which is the ego or mind of man. When the soul leaves this earth and becomes glorified, it returns to back to an eternal state – added layer or shell. There is no other way to enter into the highest state of the Celestial kingdom and preside with our parents without the same eternal glorified mortal body via the resurrection. This we do agree – right? Now, if that being case, where are we in the creational order of kingdoms presiding with GOD? Who is above us and who is below us? Is this state the end of our eternal journey? If you answered this, then your eyes are open.

One more time with the expressional state of a soul, if I remove the mortal shell call the physical body, what is left? If I remove the spirit form made in GOD’s image, what is left? What would be the answer? Remember, the scriptures are quite silent on this subject if know where to look for it. Yet, not much clarity is given to anything previous to this state described by Abraham for a common member of the church to grasp if the Holy Ghost is not instructing that individual. This requires a deep ponderous mind that is open and easily taught when being instructed by the Spirit, taught what previous happen prior to Abraham’s account.

If you desire the answer to our progression read Genesis first few chapters. It is quite revealing to the spirit. But, do you understand the differences between ego of a singularity state versus ego of a collective state? This answers the question when we view our existment outside the universe versus observing within and accounting the Creation.

Even if fallen spirits are casted out, what happens to the spirit body and the intelligence?

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One side note, with this sentence ... you would say for sure, without a doubt then that when a mother feels her child "animate" the body within her during pregnancy that there is a spirit present, right? Even if that baby is a stillbirth? So, you probably would be in favor of giving stillbirths records in the church?

That's another good question!

Sheeesh, you're making me think.

Well, I've never officially adopted that belief, but it sounds like it might true.

All I can say is that sometimes after a spirit has left a body it will still show signs of life, twitch or shake, or whatever. So, I don't know if it means it HAS to be the case.

The church's official position is that the spirit enters the body some time between conception and birth, so that's what I'll stay with. If a baby's body moves because it is growing or is influenced by the mother's spririt in some way, I don't know.

So, again, I really don't know. But, my opinion is that it doesn't necessarily have to have a spirit because it moves. It cannot exisit without an umbilical cord unless it has a spirit to sustain it.

That's my story, and as flakey as it is, I'm sticking with it! ;)

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Yeah its distracting to say to least. Thats why I added the list of McConkie's defination of Angels, it goes through all types of souls that I can think of.

D&C 88:15 does say that the spirit and the body are the soul of man. Thus if you are a Man your soul consists of a spirit + body.

Satan's soul is just his spirit.

Elohim's soul is the combination of his spirit + immortal body.

I think of the Soul as the essence of the person. When my spirit entered my body it must have had an effect upon the essence of what is me thus my soul changed. And hopefully in the future if I play my cards right I will get the chance to become a Celestial being. That perfect body will also have an effect upon my spirit which will make me different I would assume.

Just thinking outloud.

Did you read McConkie's statement what defines 'intelligence'? In Mormon Doctrine, Elder McConkie writes that "Intelligence or spirit element became intelligences after the spirits were born as individual entities. Use of this name designates both the primal element from which the spirit offspring were created and also their inherited capacity to grow in grace ..." This view seems to consider intelligence, or pure element, as collective and not individual in its nature, and is consistent with the views expressed by President Penrose. If this is true, then we have not always existed as individual entities, but only as a collective something.

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Did you read McConkie's statement what defines 'intelligence'? In Mormon Doctrine, Elder McConkie writes that "Intelligence or spirit element became intelligences after the spirits were born as individual entities. Use of this name designates both the primal element from which the spirit offspring were created and also their inherited capacity to grow in grace ..." This view seems to consider intelligence, or pure element, as collective and not individual in its nature, and is consistent with the views expressed by President Penrose. If this is true, then we have not always existed as individual entities, but only as a collective something.

Yeah, to tell you the truth I have not made a judgement as to what is an intelligence. There have been good arguments made supporting both the existence of an intelligence as an entity prior to being re-organized into a spirit, and conversely that intelligence is just another word for spirit.

McConkie's entry on Intelligence makes reference to only one scripture Abraham 3: 22-24 which I read quite plainly as intelligence = spirit. And a quote of Joseph Smith found in Teachings p. 354 which does not adequately define intelligence whatsoever.

The first record that we have in the Church of intelligence as an entity is:

B. H. Roberts, "The Immortality of Man"

I like the idea of an intelligence as an entity that predated a spirit. But I dont think that it is LDS Doctrine. We just don't know. And would it matter if we did? Heck I don't really know what a spirit is... Heckfire, I'm a surgeon and I think that i have just scratched the surface as to what is a human body...

Its kinda like looking at an atom of an element and saying well I want to know what makes up the components of atoms. Mabey they are strings that vibrate and different harmonies in 12 or 13 dimentions of space...

But if there are spirits of men and spirits of beasts. There had to be a reason why some were made as men and others as beasts. Maybe our intelligences were more advanced thus we became spirits of men. Where other intelligences did not want to progres as far thus settled to become spirits of beasts.

Makes you wonder...

Edited by mikbone
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In my brain I define it this way...

Since the physical world is meant to teach us of the spiritual world, I compare intelligence to physical matter. I believe it has the same relation as physical matter to our physical bodies. Our physical body is made up of the same matter that everything else is made of. It is eternal and infinite in supply.

Our spirit body is made from intelligence, or spirit matter. I believe our spirits are born, perhaps in a manner more like physical birth that we realize. We are eternal, even though we had a beginning, because we are born from eternal beings... both a Father and Mother.

That's how I wrap my brain around it.

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Yes, that is how I see it too. Just exchange "intelligence" with carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen (etc.), and say the atoms are co-eternal with physical material, when we are born those atoms are organized in the image of our parents. Likewise, "intelligence" material is co-eternal with God and when we are born of immortal parents our being is in the image of our parents and then we become an "intelligence" grouped with many others like us we are the "intelligences" or spirits. To me the "spirit body" is the form of the organized intelligence, I don't see it as a shell. And yet one can still say (like Kimball did) that God took the intelligence and put it into a spirit body, because we don't really know how the "birthing" process takes place.

A side note about that process, I tend to believe that process is somewhat random, just like earthly birth, so that the there is a range of how valiant spirits come out. Otherwise, I can't see God organizing a third of the spirits that are going to simply be cast out anyways, if He had direct control on the constitution of those spirits.

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What we need to understand and at length, corrected this old notion that has developed over time in the church, the spirit matter has a elastic properties and will mold itself to the physical body and not the reverse. We actually do know about the progression of intelligences but at what cost do you want to broadcast to this the world? It is already known in this world. Many areas of the pre-mortal state, pre-spiritual state, is off limit to the world and those who are not called at this time. This is only provided by instruction.

In pre-mortal life, it was more than a third who rebelled against FATHER's plan. Those who cannot be saved by efforts of you and others through missionary work, was a third.

Years ago, I didn't realize before, in the pre-mortal life, one could see the various differences of degrees of progression of GOD's spirit children within that state, whether it was a telestial, terrestrial, or celestial. There were a few who stood with Abraham in that gathering of great intelligence that GOD selected to be HIS direct servants.

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In my brain I define it this way...

Since the physical world is meant to teach us of the spiritual world, I compare intelligence to physical matter. I believe it has the same relation as physical matter to our physical bodies. Our physical body is made up of the same matter that everything else is made of. It is eternal and infinite in supply.

Our spirit body is made from intelligence, or spirit matter. I believe our spirits are born, perhaps in a manner more like physical birth that we realize. We are eternal, even though we had a beginning, because we are born from eternal beings... both a Father and Mother.

That's how I wrap my brain around it.

I think it was spoken by the prophet concerning the various properties, either refine or heavy course matter [spirit versus physical]. I need to find that reference though.

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