"Soul" = spirit and spirit + body = "soul"

[Seminarysnoozer]

What we need to understand and at length, corrected this old notion that has developed over time in the church, the spirit matter has a elastic properties and will mold itself to the physical body and not the reverse. We actually do know about the progression of intelligences but at what cost do you want to broadcast to this the world? It is already known in this world. Many areas of the pre-mortal state, pre-spiritual state, is off limit to the world and those who are not called at this time. This is only provided by instruction.

In pre-mortal life, it was more than a third who rebelled against FATHER's plan. Those who cannot be saved by efforts of you and others through missionary work, was a third.

Years ago, I didn't realize before, in the pre-mortal life, one could see the various differences of degrees of progression of GOD's spirit children within that state, whether it was a telestial, terrestrial, or celestial. There were a few who stood with Abraham in that gathering of great intelligence that GOD selected to be HIS direct servants.

Sounds like you don't want to talk about it, which is fine, I can respect that. I can already tell you that I am not called to receive any of that kind of information, I'm left with pondering and that is it. That would be news to me, though, that there is some kind of predestination regarding degrees of glory. I would have assumed that just like Lucifer fell from a leadership, God's servant position any one of us could also change our status in the opposite direction.

[Hemidakota]

But you can know it...don't underestimate your potential in receiving what others had before you. You are no lesser than those who are called prophets or the brethren. It starts with desire to know of these things. When you are ready, it will come to you by a means that you can understand it and add it to your testimony. Being blunt here now, what was given to me, was given to close friend at the same time. Two witness of the same event but our observation viewpoint of what was shown, is slightly different.

If GOD is 'all knowing', I can see how HE would know after the creation [progressional state of that being] of HIS/HER children what shall become of them if they follow the same course. Many of which, rebelled and actually followed Lucifer's altered plan. This is a manifestation of that individual choices versus following HIS beloved Son or the FATHER.

[mikbone]

i think it was spoken by the prophet concerning the various properties, either refine or heavy course matter [spirit versus physical]. I need to find that reference though.

Doctrine & Covenants 131: 7-8

[Seminarysnoozer]

Doctrine & Covenants 131: 7-8

That scripture almost makes it sound like the physical resurrected body will be formed by the same material that the spirit body is made of, the eyes will be made purer, as if the eyes are made of spirit matter. The whole body being formed of that finer material then we can see that it is all matter.

[Hemidakota]

I need to think about this one, how the materials are brought back together and glorified in a physical sense.

[Hemidakota]

Let me start throwing out some quotes to make some sense here;

Minutes: To a remark of Elder Orson Pratt's, that a man's body changes every seven years, President Joseph Smith replied: There is no fundamental principle belonging to a human system that ever goes into another in this world or in the world to come; I care not what the theories of men are. We have the testimony that God will raise us up, and he has the power to do it. If any one supposes that any part of our bodies, that is, the fundamental parts thereof, ever goes into another body, he is mistaken. (Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 vols. 5:339)

No person can have . . . salvation except through a tabernacle. (Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 vols. 5:388)

The spirits in the eternal world are like the spirits in this world. When those have come into this world and received tabernacles, then died and again have risen and received glorified bodies, they will have an ascendency over the spirits who have received no bodies, or kept not their first estate, like the devil. The punishment of the devil was that he should not have a habitation like men. The devil's retaliation is, he comes into this world, binds up men's bodies, and occupies them himself. When the authorities come along, they eject him from a stolen habitation. (Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 vols. 5:403)

God Almighty Himself dwells in eternal fire; flesh and blood cannot go there, for all corruption is devoured by the fire. "Our God is a consuming fire." When our flesh is quickened by the Spirit, there will be no blood in this tabernacle. Some dwell in higher glory than others.... Immortality dwells in everlasting burnings.... All men who are immortal dwell in everlasting burnings. (DHC, 6:366.)

Flesh and blood cannot go there; but flesh and bones, quickened by the Spirit of God, can.

If we would be sober and watch in fasting and prayer, God would turn away sickness from our midst.

Hasten the work in the Temple, renew your exertions to forward all the work of the last days, and walk before the Lord in soberness and righteousness. Let the Elders and Saints do away with lightmindedness, and be sober. (Oct. 9, 1843.) —DHC 6:50-52.

The Improvement Era for June, 1904, President Joseph F. Smith in an editorial on the Resurrection said: "The body will come forth as it is laid to rest, for there is no growth or development in the grave. As it is laid down, so will it arise, and changes to perfection will come by the law of restitution. But the spirit will continue to expand and develop, and the body, after the resurrection will develop to the full stature of man." This may be accepted as the doctrine of the Church in respect to the resurrection of children and their future development to the full stature of men and women; and it is alike conformable to that which will be regarded as both reasonable and desirable.

"Behold this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."—(The Lord to Moses, Book of Moses, chap. 1:39; Pearl of Great Price)—that is, "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man," as man. The passage has reference doubtless to man as composed of spirit and body—a proper "soul" (see D&C Sec. 88:15-16)—"For the spirit and the body is the soul of man; and the resurrection of the dead is the redemption of the soul." In other words, the "work" and the "glory" of God are achieved in bringing to pass the "immortality and eternal life of man," as man, in the eternal union of the spirit and body of man through the resurrection through the redemption of the soul. This brings into eternal union "spirit and element" declared by the word of God to be essential to a fulness of joy—"The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; and when separated man cannot receive a fulness of joy" (D&C, Sec. 93). Also, "Adam fell that men might be: and men are that they might have joy" (2 Nephi 2:25). Indeed, the whole purpose of God in bringing to pass the earth life of man is to inure to the welfare and enlargement of man as urged in the teaching of the Prophet in the paragraph above. God affects man only to his advantage. See also Seventy's Year Book No. 2, Lesson 2, note 6.—Note by Elder B. H. Roberts.

It was common for American religionists in the Prophet's day to distinguish between the characteristics of body and spirit, as Joseph noted: "The body is supposed to be organized matter, and the spirit, by many, is thought to be immaterial, without substance. With this latter statement we should beg leave to differ, and state that the spirit is a substance; that it is material, but that it is more pure, elastic and refined matter than the body; that it existed before the body, can exist in the body; and will exist separate from the body, when the body will be mouldering in the dust; and will in the resurrection, be again united with it." (Smith, Teachings, 207.)

The Prophet learned another germane principle about the spirit when he inquired about certain aspects of the Revelation of John. The Lord revealed in Doctrine and Covenants 77:2 that "that which is temporal [is] in the likeness of that which is spiritual; the spirit of man in the likeness of his person" (compare Moses 3:5). Commenting on this doctrine, Elder Erastus Snow said that "our spirits are the express image of our tabernacles, and, united together, the Scriptures inform us, are the express image of God."18 Elder Parley P. Pratt more explicitly tells us that our "organized spirit we call a body, because, although composed of the spiritual elements, it possesses every organ after the pattern and in the likeness or similitude of the outward or fleshly tabernacle it is destined to eventually inhabit. Its organs of thought, speech, sight, hearing, tasting, smelling, feeling, etc., all exist in their order as in the physical body; the one being the exact similitude of the other."19

18. Erastus Snow, Millennial Star, May 13, 1878, 295. More recently, Elder Mark E. Petersen, "We Believe in God, the Eternal Father," Speeches of the Year, 1973, 241, teaches that "our spirit resembles our body, or rather our body was tailored to fit our spirit. The spirit bears the image and likeness of God, and the body, if it's normal, is in the image and likeness of the spirit."

19. Parley P. Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology (Salt Lake City: George Q. Cannon, 1891), 51–52.

Edited June 2, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

The Body of God and the Bodies of His Children

Seeing in vision the glorious bodies of the Father and the Son must have been pivotal for Joseph's understanding of the human body, as demonstrated by the fact that He utterly rejected the God of the creeds when he stated, "That which is without body, parts, and passions is nothing."30 Elder Parley P. Pratt, in his Key to the Science of Theology, elaborated on this thesis.31

Taking, I believe, the embodiment of God as his foundational point, the Prophet explained why we are embodied: "The design of God before the foundation of the world was that we should take tabernacles, that through our faithfulness we should overcome & thereby obtain a resurrection from the dead."32

The Body in the Resurrection

In the general conference in April 1843, the Prophet explained a portion of the mystery of the Resurrection. One of the Twelve, Orson Pratt, who had a gifted scientific mind made a comment based on the understanding of his day. The following response of the Prophet is recorded: "There is no fundamental principle belonging to a human system that ever goes into another in this world or in the world to come; I care not what the theories of men are. We have the testimony that God will raise us up, and he has the power to do it. If anyone supposes that any part of our bodies, that is, the fundamental parts thereof, ever goes into another body, he is mistaken."33

This notion was elaborated upon a number of times by President Brigham Young, who often spoke of the "component parts" of the body that would somehow survive death and be called together and united at the time of resurrection.34 The idea accords perfectly with what the Prophet learned from Amulek in his ministry to the inhabitants of Ammonihah (see Alma 11:43), and Alma in his interview with Corianton (see Alma 40:23): all parts of the body will be restored and reunited with their spirit counterparts. But in the Resurrection, the elements of the body will no longer be structured in the gross or corrupt condition that characterizes life in mortality. The Prophet taught that in the Resurrection, "all will be raised by the power of God, having spirit in their bodies, and not blood."35

President Spencer W. Kimball noted that at the appointed time, "the spirit will be housed eternally in a remodeled body of flesh and bones."36 Elder Russell M. Nelson, with the expertise of a physician, explained further: "The Lord who created us in the first place surely has power to do it again. The same necessary elements now in our bodies will still be available—at His command. The same unique genetic code now embedded in each of our living cells will still be available to format new ones then."37

This has intriguing application to the Prophet himself. Even though he suffered a bullet-riddled death, he will be gloriously resurrected, and his body will be devoid of any mortal impediments.38

Although all those who have taken mortal tabernacles will be resurrected, there will be qualitative variations in the finished products. President John Taylor begins the track of this thought with the following summary:

It is the design of God, as I understand it, in our coming here, to give unto us bodies, that the spirits that were created before might have tabernacles wherein they might live and exist, and move and act, as corporeal substances, if you please; and that according to certain inscrutable laws of God pertaining to the human family and the future destiny of man, and the world in which we live; that through the union of the body and spirit, and their obedience to certain laws which the great Eloheim has given for the guidance of His people, that they might be more exalted, more dignified, more glorious than it would be possible for them to be, had they not come here to sojourn in these tabernacles, and combat with the various evils to which the flesh is heir. 39

In Doctrine and Covenants 88 the Lord tells us that there are levels of resurrection that correspond to the telestial, terrestrial, and celestial kingdoms (see D&C 88:20–31). Elder Melvin J. Ballard described the ultimate outcome of this future event for us all when he said that those who are resurrected with "the glory of the celestial [kingdom] shall have a body whose very fineness and texture, the composition of it, the quality of the flesh shall be superior" to that of a lower degree of glory.40

Reference Notes:

30. Smith, Teachings, 181. The Prophet's successor, President Young, in Journal of Discourses, 10:192, follows up on this crucial theme: "We cannot believe for a moment that God is destitute of body, parts, passions or attributes. Attributes can be made manifest only through an organized personage. All attributes are couched in and are the results of organized existence."

31. Here is one illustrative sentence in an exposition in Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology, 43: "Nonentity is the negative of existence."

32. Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, ed. Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1980), 207. In the book of Abraham, while planning the creation of the world, the members of the Godhead determine that they will prove the as yet unembodied spirits by sending them to the earth. "And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and . . . shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever" (3:26). This condition will depend on the human embodiment.

33. Smith, History of the Church, 5:339. Orson Pratt accepted and taught the Prophet's doctrine (see Journal of Discourses, 14:235–36).

34. Brigham Young, in Journal of Discourses, 9:287; Millennial Star, November 8, 1875, 706–7.

35. Smith, Teachings, 199–200. Elsewhere he said, "When our flesh is quickened by the Spirit, there will be no blood in this tabernacle" (Teachings, 367). Elder Parley P. Pratt, "A Sermon Delivered by Parley P. Pratt, at New Haven City, March, 1845," Millennial Star, June 15, 1845, 9, addressing Paul's distinction between natural and spiritual bodies in 1 Corinthians 15:44, spoke further on this to an audience in New England: "If I were to define a spiritual body, I should conceive my natural one abstracted from the element which sustains it. Let it be drained of all blood which circulates through it, and all other influences which minister to its sustenance, and then let it be animated with what Moses terms the spirit of life, and I shall then stand before you an immortal being, with no loss or change in my composition, no change whatever, except that I am glorified. All the difference of my glorified from my natural body is the mode and power by which it is quickened." Elder Pratt also brought this out in Writings of Parley Parker Pratt, ed. Parker Pratt Robison (Salt Lake City, n.p., 1952), 77; see also Howard W. Hunter, "The Reality of the Resurrection," Improvement Era, June 1969, 107–8.

36. Spencer W. Kimball, "Absolute Truth," 1977 Devotional Speeches of the Year (Provo, UT: Brigham Young University Press, 1977), 140.

37. Russell M. Nelson, "Doors of Death," Ensign, May 1992, 74. I suggest that the calling together of our primal bodily elements and their fusing with the elements of our spirit demonstrates the surpassing love of the Father and the Son, for in D&C 93:33–34 we are taught that "spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; and when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy."

38. Similarly, when John the Baptist appeared to bestow the Aaronic Priesthood upon Joseph and Oliver, his body was perfectly intact, in spite of having been decapitated many centuries earlier.

39. John Taylor, in Journal of Discourses, 21:15. Elder Taylor implies here that there will be a difference in resurrection between those who have honored God's laws and those who have not.

40. Melvin J. Ballard, in Conference Report, October

[Hemidakota]

I think this is sufficent for now...

[Hemidakota]

This was interesting to read;

Others who ministered to Joseph Smith were the three Nephites. Heber C. Kimball reported the appearance of one of them to the Prophet in the early days of the Church, near the Hill Cumorah. J. D., IX. p. 41.

Later, Kimball's wife, Vilate, wrote informing her husband that Joseph had received "a visit from one of the Nephites" and had been informed of things that would shortly transpire in America and in the British Isles. As reported by Heber C. Kimball. Whitney, op. cit., IX, p. 130. See also History of the Church, II, p. 381

The Prophet is also reported to have seen the three Nephites when the Saints were making a defense of Far West. Minutes of the School of the Prophets, held at Provo, Utah, May 18, 1868.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I always find it interesting (as I am sure it is obvious by now if you've read any of my previous threads and discussion) how there is a lot of discussion about the fact that it will happen, that the spirit needs to be recombined with the body to have a fullness of joy and that it is God's plan all along to make that happen but even with all that discussion it doesn't take us any further to understand what is it about the body that makes it more glorious than just being spirit alone. After all, the spirit material is more fine and therefore more glorious by itself. What is it about the body that turns it into a 'fullness of joy' that without it could not be a fullness of joy. If it is experience, well that is what this life is for. Won't we retain our experiences as we are hanging out in the spirit world without a body? Those experiences aren't lost just because we don't have the physical housing of the body. I guess it just goes unexplained, just like I can't comprehend the difference between soul and spirit.

[Hemidakota]

I always find it interesting (as I am sure it is obvious by now if you've read any of my previous threads and discussion) how there is a lot of discussion about the fact that it will happen, that the spirit needs to be recombined with the body to have a fullness of joy and that it is God's plan all along to make that happen but even with all that discussion it doesn't take us any further to understand what is it about the body that makes it more glorious than just being spirit alone.

Looking at President Spencer W. Kimball statement, "the spirit will be housed eternally in a remodeled body of flesh and bones." It is the same notion here as with yours. Taking up the old physical body and rebuild for the purpose on inhabiting [put kingdom name here] state.

How it is done, is one of the questions I never bother to ask for myself - adding it to my own edification. Interesting enough now to me, look into this topic, thanks to your postings.

After all, the spirit material is more fine and therefore more glorious by itself. What is it about the body that turns it into a 'fullness of joy' that without it could not be a fullness of joy. If it is experience, well that is what this life is for. Won't we retain our experiences as we are hanging out in the spirit world without a body? Those experiences aren't lost just because we don't have the physical housing of the body. I guess it just goes unexplained, just like I can't comprehend the difference between soul and spirit.

I believe it is explainable but warrants further studying into this area. I believe like you, experiences, retaining in our memory. Whether, I can place the five physical senses and any attributes that stem from it, giving us the edge over the spirit shell or body for the next life, is a curious. An even emotion is not bound physical, knowing Lucifer fallen characteristic traits was his demise. So what is it? We already know, we have various levels of glorified bodies for that state to be inhabitant, but what physical properties that provides joy?

Doctrine & Covenants 88:15-32;

15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.

16 And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.

17 And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it.

18 Therefore, it must needs be sanctified from all unrighteousness, that it may be prepared for the celestial glory;

19 For after it hath filled the measure of its creation, it shall be crowned with glory, even with the presence of God the Father;

20 That bodies who are of the celestial kingdom may possess it forever and ever; for, for this intent was it made and created, and for this intent are they sanctified.

21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom.

22 For he who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

23 And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.

25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—

26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.

What about this phrase?

27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.

Interesting part is here...

28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.

29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fulness.

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

Bodies will be quickened according to the kingdom which they are judged worthy to enter. Elder Orson Pratt many years ago in writing of the resurrection and the kind of bodies which would be raised in these kingdoms said:

"In every species of animals and plants, there are many resemblances in the general outlines and many specific differences characterizing the individuals of each species. So in the resurrection. There will be several classes of resurrected bodies; some celestial, some terrestrial, some telestial, and some sons of perdition. Each of these classes will differ from the others by prominent and marked distinctions; yet, in each, considered by itself, there will be found many resemblances as well as distinctions. There will be some physical peculiarity by which each individual in every class can be identified."

[Hemidakota]

President Joseph F. Smith stated, "...the body will come forth as it is laid to rest, for there is no growth in the grave," What was being stated here, infants to children do not grow in the grave. When they come forth, they will come forth with the same body and in the same size in which the body was when it was laid away. This is very surprising for some to grasp.

President Smith went on to say, after the resurrection the body will grow until it has reached the full stature of manhood/womanhood. (See Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine. 4th ed, p. 30)

What about the Savior nail prints when He returns? The Savior comes to the Jews in the hour of their distress, as recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants, 45:51-53, He will show them the wounds in His hands and in His feet.

"And then shall the Jews look upon me and say: What are these wounds in thine hands and in thy feet? Then shall they know that I am the Lord; for I will say unto them: These wounds are the wounds with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. I am he who was lifted up. I am Jesus that was crucified. I am the Son of God. And then shall they weep because of their iniquities; then shall they lament because they persecuted their king."

The Prophet Zechariah prophesied of the Savior's Second Coming and his appearance to the Jews, when they will flee from their enemies and the Mount of Olives shall divide in making a valley, which they shall seek refuge. At that particular time he will appear and they shall say:

"What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. Then will they mourn, each family apart, because they had rejected their Lord."

This was no different when the Savior showed the same wounds to the Nephites upon visiting them. We already know the why it was done, but how was it done?

President Smith stated above, we will be corrected upon receiving back that transformed physical shell. As, we can hardly accepted as a fact, these sustained Roman wounds have remained in His hands, side, and feet, through the centuries from the time of his crucifixion. Yet, still remains until His Second Coming. Will He carry it into the eternality as a reference of the past?

Edited June 3, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Seminarysnoozer]

President Joseph F. Smith stated, "...the body will come forth as it is laid to rest, for there is no growth in the grave," What was being stated here, infants to children do not grow in the grave. When they come forth, they will come forth with the same body and in the same size in which the body was when it was laid away. This is very surprising for some to grasp.

Yes, that is surprising. I don't think I would go so far as to say it is the "same size" so much as it is the same age or level of maturity. The spirit and the body have to probably work out certain connections to work properly. For the same reason we can't just throw in stem cells in the brain and have them suddenly connect with everything, they probably have to grow together. That is also a little macabre if it is literal because what about the bodies that have been mutilated by death, badly burned or torn to pieces, do they come forth as they are laid to rest?

Even then, that whole concept is maybe worthy of a separate thread but I have a hard time with the need for a spirit to be raised by the earthly mother in the next life. If it is just for the benefit of the mother, that seems a little strange to me too. For me, that concept requires more pondering than I am able to put into it right now.

[Hemidakota]

It does remind me of Emma Smith's vision of Joseph [last month of her life] showing Emma the mansion house Joseph had prepare for her and where Don Carlos was still an infant to be raised by her. Whether that was a symbolic or not I cannot state.

[JohnnyRudick]

There are other terms we could quote from scripture that are used to define more than one thing.

Like the term hell... it has a general meaning, but it also has a very specific meaning.

Soul is the same; it has a general menaing, but it also has a specific meaning.

The body is physical matter and is animated by a spirit. There is no life in the physical body unless there is a spirit present.

The spirit of a man can exist independant of the body.

But, to receive a fulness of joy, a man must be both body and spirit.

From my studies it appears the combination of a body and spirit is only termed a "soul" when it is eternally connected, or after the resurrection. Possibly even only a glorified and perfected man (body and spirit) can be called a soul. I think in some instances they use the term soul to describe a man or his spirit before the resurrection. That makes it confusing. There are places in scripture where some prophets use the term soul interchangably with spirit, and that further complicates it.

My 2 cents.

I agree.

And this much has already been said.

I have always understood that "Soul" was a general term to point out a unique individual.

A "Spirit" is one thing and the "Flesh" is another.

But a "Soul" identifies a person what ever his state.

Also "Soul" proper, is the union of Body and a God generated spirit.

Just my understanding:mellow:

More confusion?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I believe it is explainable but warrants further studying into this area. I believe like you, experiences, retaining in our memory. Whether, I can place the five physical senses and any attributes that stem from it, giving us the edge over the spirit shell or body for the next life, is a curious. An even emotion is not bound physical, knowing Lucifer fallen characteristic traits was his demise. So what is it? We already know, we have various levels of glorified bodies for that state to be inhabitant, but what physical properties that provides joy?

Doctrine & Covenants 88:15-32;

15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.

16 And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul.

For something as important as being one of the main reasons we came here, to receive a body, we seem to know very little of why it is important other than to say that that is how we receive a fullness of joy and that is how we are to become like God. But really, just saying those two things does not express any knowledge of what is it about having a body that gives us a fullness of joy. That's like Adam saying I know not why I do it save God told me to do it.

It reminds me of one time in High School, towards the end of the year they were handing out a bunch of supplies that were left over and everyone was pushing and shoving to get in line to get whatever they were handing out. The line was so long it was hard to see what they were handing out and the people in front and behind me had no clue what they were handing out, they just wanted to get something for free. Turns out they were old pen sets and when I took mine home after waiting 15 minutes in line to get it, it worked for 2 days then dried out.

The body is such an important part of our gospel and yet we have very little knowledge of what it is for in the next life. I just find that a curious thing. So many are satisfied with just saying that it is to receive a fullness of joy or because you had one here you get one there. I have enough faith to say I'm okay with it, but it is hard for me to drop my curiosity of why it is needed to have a fullness of joy. To have an eternal increase may be one thing, but that certainly doesn't apply for everyone that will get a body, so it has to be more than that.

[volgadon]

A soul in the Bible did mean the body and spirit together, I'll post a reference later, but in our scriptures the term is used sloppily. That is really all there is to it.

[Hemidakota]

That is not case...greater truths are given when we asked in humble and meek state. Whether we believe or not, is for them who seek or have the desire to know. It is given to all men[women] who desire a greater truth.

[Seminarysnoozer]

That is not case...greater truths are given when we asked in humble and meek state. Whether we believe or not, is for them who seek or have the desire to know. It is given to all men[women] who desire a greater truth.

My feeling is that the more I seek understanding about this issue the more I realize it is out of our grasp to really understand it's significance. I think it is just like how many people say that in the pre-existence we couldn't fully understand the value of this life we are in now without being in it even though we may have understood the mechanics of it. I think the same thing could be said about the reason why we need a body in the eternities. I can appreciate the mechanics of it or at least that it will happen and it needs to happen to have a fullness of joy but I have no clue as to why having a body brings fullness of joy as opposed to having a spirit body forever. I can fully (or mostly) understand the reasons for having a body here in this existence but the reasons for a body here are different than the reasons for having a body in the afterlife.

The reason for the body can't be so that we can be in God's presence because we were in His presence without a body before this life. It can't just be to have offspring because the majority of people with a glorified perfected body will not have offspring. It can't be just to experience sensations because we are told in the spirit world all of our passions and drives will still be there, that is part of the suffering in spirit prison. So it must be that our spirit bodies have the ability to comprehend similar senses. Even if it is senses that seems really odd to me that we would go through all of this just so we could smell something or taste something. That idea seems 180 degrees opposite of what we are told here, to control our passions and not take an attitude of 'eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.'

There is only one explanation that I have heard before, but not through scripture or GA's and that is the possibility that spirits have a life span that is not eternal without being placed in a body. Now, if that is true then I can see the need to go through all this trouble for the privilege of having an eternal body. Of course, a spirit's intelligence material does not cease to exist as the material goes back to basic intelligence material after the dissolution of the spirit form and that way satisfying our understanding that intelligence is eternal. But the spirit form, possibly, may not last forever without it being placed and combined with a body thus becoming a 'soul.' The thing that makes me think that that could not be the case is that it would be such a simple principle to teach and yet it is not. So, I doubt that that is true. The little bit that makes me think that it could be the case is the fact that we call eternal life, the combining of the spirit with the body in a way that it will never be separated again. There is something more to the fact that the spirit was meant to be connected to the body that is not very well explained in our religion. Just to say, 'because that is God's form' isn't a specific explanation, it doesn't provide any understanding of why it has to be that way especially knowing that our spirits are God's children.

[volgadon]

That is not case...greater truths are given when we asked in humble and meek state. Whether we believe or not, is for them who seek or have the desire to know. It is given to all men[women] who desire a greater truth.

Was that for me? If it was, i don't see how that goes against what I was saying, that the usage of soul in LDS scriptures is sloppy, imprecise. I'm talking about terminology, not about greater truths.

[Hemidakota]

[being blunt] It does...so much for man made dictionaries. It is better to receive truths at the feet of those who know [Godhead] than to listen to the fables of men. I can attest, they are no closer to the truth than those who are scholars who spend more time writing fables than asking for a direct answer.

Volgadon, one can know truths if you truly believe in the 'GODHEAD,' who will reveal it to them, which are spiritual mature enough to receive it.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

There is only one explanation that I have heard before, but not through scripture or GA's and that is the possibility that spirits have a life span that is not eternal without being placed in a body. Now, if that is true then I can see the need to go through all this trouble for the privilege of having an eternal body. Of course, a spirit's intelligence material does not cease to exist as the material goes back to basic intelligence material after the dissolution of the spirit form and that way satisfying our understanding that intelligence is eternal. But the spirit form, possibly, may not last forever without it being placed and combined with a body thus becoming a 'soul.' The thing that makes me think that that could not be the case is that it would be such a simple principle to teach and yet it is not. So, I doubt that that is true. The little bit that makes me think that it could be the case is the fact that we call eternal life, the combining of the spirit with the body in a way that it will never be separated again. There is something more to the fact that the spirit was meant to be connected to the body that is not very well explained in our religion. Just to say, 'because that is God's form' isn't a specific explanation, it doesn't provide any understanding of why it has to be that way especially knowing that our spirits are God's children.

Our progression is silent for the masses in the church, concerning our beginnings before our spiritual birth. Yet, it is plainly written in the scriptures but many have failed to comprehend it or just gloss over it. The reasoning behind this, many in the church are not ready to receive it. If it was, Joseph would have taught it in his days. But, I agree with his assessment, it is not given to all to know it. Nor were Abraham, Moses, and Joseph Smith, Sidney, allowed to write it.

It does open the doors for greater explanation on why some personalities are just that in the spirit world and mortality. Even if they are, they still could use their agency to make a greater change within this mortal probation. We are not bound to our past but what is now that matters.

Spirit of man was born after being created in GOD’s image. I do agree with Apostle McConkie here, but, it was not our beginnings. Our intelligence has previous ‘layers’ of progression and collectiveness, which span before GOD was GOD. We are all together in the beginning.

Our infinity lies with this physical body as the last step for perfection. If many knew this and take the literal meaning, your body is a temple of GOD, then we do anything within our power to remain clean and pure before the Master in order to obtain that is greatest event in our entire existment.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Spirit of man was born after being created in GOD’s image. I do agree with Apostle McConkie here, but, it was not our beginnings. Our intelligence has previous ‘layers’ of progression and collectiveness, which span before GOD was GOD. We are all together in the beginning.

Please share what you believe to be the previous 'layers' of progression of intelligence before our Heavenly Father's involvement. ... and where you get this information so I can read more about it and try to understand that teaching. This is something I've only encountered on forums like these. I think most of the time people extrapolate from the teachings of Joseph Smith that there "must have been" some eternal progression before God's involvement because it is like a ring that never ends but I don't see that as saying that any one of us as an intelligence had some progression before God formed our spirit being. To me, that just says that the cycle repeats itself over and over without beginning or end to keep making more and more spirit beings and eventually perfect exalted beings who go on to have spirit beings of their own making it an endless ring. I don't think we existed as 'spirit beings' forever, I can't find anything that says that. I'll I see is that the matter that makes up the spirit being "intelligence" has been around forever. I have hunted but cannot find an authoritative description of individual spirit beings existing as individuals forever and without beginning without being a part of a collective mass of "intelligence". Which is no different than saying the carbon atoms that make up my body have been around forever but possibly were part of a pineapple and before that made up part of a bird and before that a fish and so on back to just a clump of carbon atoms existing forever. But that does not mean that my body as a body has been around forever. Just like any particular individual intelligence does not have to be around forever to say that "intelligences" have been around before God was God.

[mikbone]

Please share what you believe to be the previous 'layers' of progression of intelligence before our Heavenly Father's involvement. ... and where you get this information so I can read more about it and try to understand that teaching. This is something I've only encountered on forums like these. I think most of the time people extrapolate from the teachings of Joseph Smith that there "must have been" some eternal progression before God's involvement because it is like a ring that never ends but I don't see that as saying that any one of us as an intelligence had some progression before God formed our spirit being. To me, that just says that the cycle repeats itself over and over without beginning or end to keep making more and more spirit beings and eventually perfect exalted beings who go on to have spirit beings of their own making it an endless ring. I don't think we existed as 'spirit beings' forever, I can't find anything that says that. I'll I see is that the matter that makes up the spirit being "intelligence" has been around forever. I have hunted but cannot find an authoritative description of individual spirit beings existing as individuals forever and without beginning without being a part of a collective mass of "intelligence". Which is no different than saying the carbon atoms that make up my body have been around forever but possibly were part of a pineapple and before that made up part of a bird and before that a fish and so on back to just a clump of carbon atoms existing forever. But that does not mean that my body as a body has been around forever. Just like any particular individual intelligence does not have to be around forever to say that "intelligences" have been around before God was God.

Check Out B. H. Roberts, "The Immortality of Man", the following is an except of that document that was printed in the Improvement Era 1907

THE MANUAL THEORY RE-STATED.

Let us first re-state more explicitly, and, if possible, more clearly, the Manual Theory; and then see, not if what has been revealed favors such a conception of things as are set forth in the Manual; but if what has been revealed does not absolutely demand such conclusions; for I hold that, in the main, it is not a matter of choice between two theories, both of which have more or less of reason or scripture to support them, but if credence is to be given at all to what is revealed upon the subject, the Manual Theory of the eternity of the intelligent entity in man must be accepted as true. Now to the restatement of that theory.

1.--There is in that complex thing we call man an intelligent entity, uncreated, self existent, indestructible. He--for that entity is a person, because, as we shall see, he is possessed of powers that go with personality only, hence that entity is "he," not "it,"--he is eternal as God is; co-existent, in fact, with God; of the same kind of substance or essence with deity, though confessedly inferior in degree of intelligence and power to God. One must needs think that the name of this eternal entity--what God calls him--conveys to the mind some idea of his nature. He is called an "intelligence;" and this I believe is descriptive of him. That is, intelligence is the entity's chief characteristic. If this be a true deduction, then the entity must be self-conscious. He must have the power to distinguish himself from other things--the "me" from the "not me." He must have power of deliberation, by which he sets over one thing against another; with power also to form a judgment that this or that is a better thing or state than this or that. Also there goes with this idea of intelligence a power of choosing one thing instead of another, one state rather than another. These powers are inseparably connected with any idea that may be formed of an intelligence. One cannot conceive of intelligence existing without these qualities any more than he can conceive of an object existing in space without dimensions. The phrase, "the light of truth" is given in one of the revelations as the equivalent for an "intelligence" here discussed; by which it is meant to be understood, as I think, that intelligent entities perceive the truth, are conscious of the truth, they know that which is, hence "the light of truth," "intelligence." Let it be observed that I say nothing as to the mode of the existence of these intelligences, beyond the fact of their eternity. But of their form, or the manner of their subsistence nothing, so far as I know, has been revealed, and hence we are without means of knowing anything about the modes of their existence beyond the fact of it, and the essential qualities they possess, which already have been pointed out.

2.--These intelligences in the many kingdoms of God, and before the "beginning" of that earth-order of things, with which we are now connected, were begotten spirits. That is to say, a spirit body was provided for them, of which God is the Father; for he is called in the scriptures "the father of the spirits of men," hence our "Father in heaven." I use the term "begotten" above instead of "created," advisedly; and because I believe we are warranted in believing that the "begetting" of spirit-bodies for "intelligences" is an act of generation rather than of creation. The distinction is well stated by one of the early Christian fathers, Athanasius, as follows: "Let it be repeated that a created thing is external to the nature of the being who creates; but a generation (a begetting, as a father begets a son,) is the proper offspring of the nature." That is to say, through generation the father imparts of his own nature to his offspring; so that intelligences when begotten spirits have added to their own native, underived, inherent qualities somewhat of the father's nature also, and are veritably sons of God. More has been revealed upon this spirit-state of existence than upon the one that precedes it. We know for instance that the form of the spirit in outline, at least, is like the form of the human body of flesh and bone, which subsequently the spirit inhabits in the earth life, that he meets in the assemblies of spirits; that he exercises agency, that he is obedient to law, or rebels against it, as he chooses; that he is righteous or unrighteous as he wills; that he is capable of receiving or imparting intelligence. In a word, he is capable of participating in a very wide range of activities. And so far as the Savior was concerned, even in spirit-life he was capable of exercising creative powers, "for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things are created by him and for him."

3.--Spirits are begotten men through generation, and the spirit-body inhabits one of flesh and bone, which the spirit moulds and fashions after its own likeness, which shines out of, and expresses itself through, the earth-body. The spirit in this earth-life united to himself certain elements of this world-matter which he makes peculiarly his own. These elements are as eternal as the substance of his spirit-body, or the intelligent entity inhabiting it. No one of these was ever created in the sense of being brought forth of nothing, they always existed; they are eternal things brought into the relationship in which we see them--relationship essential to their highest good. The union of spirit and element we are told, is in some way essential to "a fulness of joy; and when separated, man cannot have a fulness of joy."

4.--The spirit and body of man are separated by death, but only for a time; the revelations of God assure us that there shall be a resurrection as universal as death has been; and that man after the resurrection, and through it, becomes inseparably connected with his body--he becomes a "soul;" for "the spirit and the body is the soul of man; and the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul." What such a redeemed soul may become, by accepting the truth and living it, with God and good men as friends and guides, and also an eternity in which to work out the problems of existence, opens a field for thought that is very inviting, but foreign to our immediate purpose.