"Soul" = spirit and spirit + body = "soul"

[Hemidakota]

Please share what you believe to be the previous 'layers' of progression of intelligence before our Heavenly Father's involvement. ... and where you get this information so I can read more about it and try to understand that teaching.

This is something I've only encountered on forums like these. I think most of the time people extrapolate from the teachings of Joseph Smith that there "must have been" some eternal progression before God's involvement because it is like a ring that never ends but I don't see that as saying that any one of us as an intelligence had some progression before God formed our spirit being. To me, that just says that the cycle repeats itself over and over without beginning or end to keep making more and more spirit beings and eventually perfect exalted beings who go on to have spirit beings of their own making it an endless ring. I don't think we existed as 'spirit beings' forever, I can't find anything that says that. I'll I see is that the matter that makes up the spirit being "intelligence" has been around forever. I have hunted but cannot find an authoritative description of individual spirit beings existing as individuals forever and without beginning without being a part of a collective mass of "intelligence". Which is no different than saying the carbon atoms that make up my body have been around forever but possibly were part of a pineapple and before that made up part of a bird and before that a fish and so on back to just a clump of carbon atoms existing forever. But that does not mean that my body as a body has been around forever. Just like any particular individual intelligence does not have to be around forever to say that "intelligences" have been around before God was God.

When we can truly define what ‘INTELLIGENCE is’ I believe, we can unravel our ancient past. Adding to this, one simple answer given by GOD, gives a member a key to unlock a special important door about Genesis. [see Joseph comment on how to understand the Book of Revelations] You also receive a prompting? No doubt…welcome to the club.

I was curious after receiving a prompting by the Spirit, few years ago, went back to reinvestigate this prompting. But, what came as a answer [being shown] was quite surprising. I knew it but I didn’t have a testimony of it. The inimitable part here, in seeing another person I trust, receives the same answer on that very day. This is nothing to new to me, when the Lord uses two or more people to convey an answer – someone you trust and have confidence in. Now, the observational viewpoint of what was seen varied. I do blame myself in lacking a greater faith and His ability in teaching me. This was my fault in allowing this to happen as it was with seeing the Anti-Christ, whom I thought was the Savior. That was not case when the Lord revealed it to another member of my family on the same event. We have our moments with some revelations.

Though, this is a subject matter is very touching to discuss openly. Even in my home, I do not convey this openly with my children, friends, or even my companion unless the Spirit warrants it. The exception is for someone who has seen it as I did. In this case, besides the promptings, if will require a firsthand witness of the event on seeking unison between both of us. Lord blesses us when we are ready to accept it. I truly believe, there is a lot more given to the Prophet Joseph Smith that is still not teachable today.

All of us receive promptings from the Spirit. For me, I just write down in the area called ‘NEED FURTHER RESEARCH’ in my journal, after receiving a moment like this. It will reside there until there is an answer.

Let you know, I have documented every article, talk, book, that deals ‘INTELLIGENCE.’

Clearly though, my thoughts of the subject finally cumulative over time that equals the same of what was given by Cleon Skousen. After I began to discuss with other forum members, Tom, use to be a member here, told me of a link pointed to Cleon’s talk or article concerning the same subject. When I read it, it was hitting the hammer on the nail’s head. What I could add to this man’s remarkable work, what was our last progressional state would be the caveat. Pattern seen here between us, we are in unison in thought. It nice to know, you are not alone though. Talmage was his mentor if I am correct.

SS there is no known direct talk/article/book from any general authority or scholar pertaining directing a person to this subject. As I already stated before, after the prompting, I gathered all what was written in the bible to latter day members, research it out for myself. What is left, is seeking that answer by the hands of the Holy Ghost, for He is the [testifier] instructor, in receiving your answer. What will be the answer, has to be seen.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Hemidakota

[Hemidakota]

Check Out B. H. Roberts, "The Immortality of Man", the following is an except of that document that was printed in the Improvement Era 1907

I know there is a scholar here that will 'beat this article to an academic death'. I have read his opinion regarding Elder Roberts book, some written articles that stem from his book that became part of an earlier church magazine publication. Even specific members of the Apostles, Seventies were against this article, while others were for it. But, we do know, before it was release, it was reviewed by the First Presidency. It seems back then; written articles were turned in for review prior to publications. It is somewhat the same today but not to the level of the First Presidency.

I am grateful for this posting. It only confirms to my own testament of what I believe is intelligence and what constitutes a soul.

[volgadon]

[being blunt] It does...so much for man made dictionaries. It is better to receive truths at the feet of those who know [Godhead] than to listen to the fables of men. I can attest, they are no closer to the truth than those who are scholars who spend more time writing fables than asking for a direct answer.

Volgadon, one can know truths if you truly believe in the 'GODHEAD,' who will reveal it to them, which are spiritual mature enough to receive it.

Spare me the holier-than-thou attitude. I understand the principle of personal revelation, thankee. Also, I find your disparaging attitude towards any sort of scholarship amusing, considering that Joseph Smith had utterly no problems using the tools of scholarship to uncover greater truths.

[Vanhin]

Here's some help from the Guide to the Scriptures on the topic.

Concerning the term soul:

The scriptures speak of souls in three ways:1 spirit beings, both premortal and postmortal (Alma 40: 11-14; Abr. 3: 23);2 a spirit and a body united in mortality (Abr. 5: 7); and 3 an immortal, resurrected person whose spirit and body have become inseparably connected (Alma 40: 23; D&C 88: 15-16). Guide to the Scriptures: Soul

Concerning the term intelligence(s):

Intelligence has several meanings, three of which are:1 It is the light of truth which gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed.2 The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God.3 The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children. Guide to the Scriptures: Intelligence, Intelligences

Those also happen to be my understanding of the terms as I have gained them through scripture study and personal revelation.

For those who don't know, the Guide to the Scriptures are included in all the new foreign language missionary editions of the Book of Mormon, and it "can help you answer questions about the gospel, study topics in the scriptures, prepare talks and lessons, and increase your knowledge and testimony of the gospel." (Guide to the Scriptures).

Oddly, any equation that treats "intelligence" as something other than light, spirit or spirit element is missing from both the scriptures and the helps. Like many contemporary prophets and apostles have taught, President Hinckley taught that "Each of us is a dual being of spiritual entity and physical entity" (LDS.org - Liahona Article - In These Three I Believe). Spirit (intelligence) + Physical Body = Us right now.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited June 9, 2010 by Vanhin

[Hemidakota]

Spare me the holier-than-thou attitude. I understand the principle of personal revelation, thankee. Also, I find your disparaging attitude towards any sort of scholarship amusing, considering that Joseph Smith had utterly no problems using the tools of scholarship to uncover greater truths.

As I stated in the post brother, I was being blunt. Read the post. Take it as a grain of salt when you see that phrase. If you choose to use nonsense content of being offended, I cannot communicate with this type of posting. Even members in the church, as a group of Saints, we are not all on the same levels. Some have a greater knowledge, some have less. But, we are here to grasp what we can for our own edification and hopefully, it will bring us a step closer to our beloved GOD and HIS Son in the end. Believe or not, what separates us from being like FATHER is what? KNOWLEDGE!!! We already have the necessary ordinances [temple/priesthood] and tools in aiding us, HIS children through the highest gate. But we still lack something that makes like HIM; so we can be with HIM for eternality. Now, whether you call it HOLIER THAN HOW in seeing a blunt statement in how I responded, it really matters not to me. I will leave that in the Savior’s hand to determine the outcome in the end.

I don’t have a fetish in not using man made dictionaries, just stating a point here. It is pointless what the world may think or say concerning theological realms whether there is more to this picture than what a 2-D dimensional person is trying to convey to a 4-D dimensional person. There is a vast difference of content not visually being seen here regarding a ‘soul’. They simply do not have all the answers. Yet, there is a fine line to tread as I stated already regarding this subject and how ‘I’ would inject it. What could be a simple Spirit prompting, adding further wakening moments, when we are ready; our eyes can understand the content being shown.

Most science today, including some of our own religious posting, is nothing more than a postulation to you or me. Yet, it is up to us to take that postulation and seek a divine answer [Holy Ghost]. If a person provides an answer directly or at least hinting a direction to take with finding a resolution to a question, I would be paying close attention. Whether it is a known GA, or a member, for me, I asked the Holy Ghost for a confirmation to see if he/she was right. Even the most simply minds here, have provided for me a final connection [playing a Dot Connection Game] to the last dot, which help to understand a specific gospel truth.

Last, look at my below signature statement; “MOVING FORWARD TOGETHER.” That is our goal… God bless.

[Hemidakota]

Please share what you believe to be the previous 'layers' of progression of intelligence before our Heavenly Father's involvement. ... and where you get this information so I can read more about it and try to understand that teaching. This is something I've only encountered on forums like these. I think most of the time people extrapolate from the teachings of Joseph Smith that there "must have been" some eternal progression before God's involvement because it is like a ring that never ends but I don't see that as saying that any one of us as an intelligence had some progression before God formed our spirit being. To me, that just says that the cycle repeats itself over and over without beginning or end to keep making more and more spirit beings and eventually perfect exalted beings who go on to have spirit beings of their own making it an endless ring. I don't think we existed as 'spirit beings' forever, I can't find anything that says that. I'll I see is that the matter that makes up the spirit being "intelligence" has been around forever. I have hunted but cannot find an authoritative description of individual spirit beings existing as individuals forever and without beginning without being a part of a collective mass of "intelligence". Which is no different than saying the carbon atoms that make up my body have been around forever but possibly were part of a pineapple and before that made up part of a bird and before that a fish and so on back to just a clump of carbon atoms existing forever. But that does not mean that my body as a body has been around forever. Just like any particular individual intelligence does not have to be around forever to say that "intelligences" have been around before God was God.

Are you ready?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Here's some help from the Guide to the Scriptures on the topic.

Concerning the term soul:

The scriptures speak of souls in three ways:1 spirit beings, both premortal and postmortal (Alma 40: 11-14; Abr. 3: 23);2 a spirit and a body united in mortality (Abr. 5: 7); and 3 an immortal, resurrected person whose spirit and body have become inseparably connected (Alma 40: 23; D&C 88: 15-16). Guide to the Scriptures: Soul

Concerning the term intelligence(s):

Intelligence has several meanings, three of which are:1 It is the light of truth which gives life and light to all things in the universe. It has always existed.2 The word intelligences may also refer to spirit children of God.3 The scriptures also may speak of intelligence as referring to the spirit element that existed before we were begotten as spirit children. Guide to the Scriptures: Intelligence, Intelligences

Those also happen to be my understanding of the terms as I have gained them through scripture study and personal revelation.

For those who don't know, the Guide to the Scriptures are included in all the new foreign language missionary editions of the Book of Mormon, and it "can help you answer questions about the gospel, study topics in the scriptures, prepare talks and lessons, and increase your knowledge and testimony of the gospel." (Guide to the Scriptures).

Oddly, any equation that treats "intelligence" as something other than light, spirit or spirit element is missing from both the scriptures and the helps. Like many contemporary prophets and apostles have taught, President Hinckley taught that "Each of us is a dual being of spiritual entity and physical entity" (LDS.org - Liahona Article - In These Three I Believe). Spirit (intelligence) + Physical Body = Us right now.

Regards,

Vanhin

Thank you for this good summary. I think most of us who are posting here have this as our baseline understanding of these principles. I think we are mostly trying to pick through the deeper implications of making those distinctions. As your listing of the definition of souls suggests that the post-mortal spirit is called a soul but then the third definition is that a spirit inseparably from a body is called a soul. If the terms are really that interchangeable then it lessens its significance in my mind. Or it says that the body really is a 'shell' it adds no trait or character to the 'soul' as the person in spirit form alone would be called a 'soul.' I think we are trying to pick through those types of implications of using these terms interchangeably.

And if the body really is a 'shell' only, why did we go through all this effort just to get another 'shell' on top of the spirit 'shell' which is made up of finer (better) material to begin with. To me, that doesn't make sense, unless there really is an added benefit to the adding of the body, which is what I believe but have no explanation of what that benefit is.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Seminarysnoozer

[volgadon]

If the terms are really that interchangeable then it lessens its significance in my mind.

Like I said, the usage isn't very strict or consistent. Properly speaking, soul = body + spirit, but the term is also used to convey different ideas, such as spirit.

[Vanhin]

Good stuff Seminarysnoozer. Here are some more thoughts to go along with the dicussion.

From D&C 88:

14 Now, verily I say unto you, that through the redemption which is made for you is brought to pass the resurrection from the dead.

15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.

16 And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul. (D&C 88:14-16)

And then from D&C 93:

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy. (D&C 93:33-34)

Man is spirit. That is what we are at our core. Our immortal spirit, or mind, is the intelligence. Soul can and has been used to describe our spirit. In fact, D&C 132 teaches that those who are exalted, will "bear the souls of men" (D&C 132:63).

But the true man, in the likeness of the Man of Holiness, is spirit and element inseparably joined. That is the soul of a Man at the height of his true potential. After the resurrection, you cannot separate the physical body from the spirit, so together it is the soul of man.

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited June 9, 2010 by Vanhin

[Hemidakota]

Thank you for this good summary. I think most of us who are posting here have this as our baseline understanding of these principles. I think we are mostly trying to pick through the deeper implications of making those distinctions. As your listing of the definition of souls suggests that the post-mortal spirit is called a soul but then the third definition is that a spirit inseparably from a body is called a soul. If the terms are really that interchangeable then it lessens its significance in my mind. Or it says that the body really is a 'shell' it adds no trait or character to the 'soul' as the person in spirit form alone would be called a 'soul.' I think we are trying to pick through those types of implications of using these terms interchangeably.

And if the body really is a 'shell' only, why did we go through all this effort just to get another 'shell' on top of the spirit 'shell' which is made up of finer (better) material to begin with. To me, that doesn't make sense, unless there really is an added benefit to the adding of the body, which is what I believe but have no explanation of what that benefit is.

Same feeling here! In hearing the term, 'a layered being', can be quite disturbing for anyone but the purpose of such, as you stated, a physical shell to cover the last being, spirit soul. The point is? Perhaps, the titled given to Savior, would provide some additional meaning - I AM - that would bring closer to not only our ancient past but draw closer to our FATHER.

Putting this into an analogous statement, if I was an assigned construction journey man, my years of learning from a mentor of the trade, would be under the guiding hand of a Master Construction Builder. Years of learning from a master of the trade would aid me to gain the appropriate knowledge and experience to construct the same type of buildings put up in the past. I now reach a state of knowledge and experiences; I can now venture forth from the tender master’s hand into a new land and applied my trade of learning. What do I construct? What I have learned by the master. The only variations that you will see, is the outward design but the interior structure materials remain the same from past master hands. Over period of time, our construction work now expands into each other land, for a time, the master and I will collectively worked together for the same end goal – in constructing the same building and with the best construction help them inhabitant the buildings. Time will come, my expansion only helps my master to now move back to his mentor or master, take over his land, as the same in moving on to be with his master. Collectively, we are working together under the one body, in unison, as one voice, the master builder.

To what end is there to this remains to be seen. More-or -less, so does the title word called sacred title called "CHRIST"; does resemble of deep importunacy of our known universe and where we are at in the mix of life.

It only provides a future roadmap for us to seek no end to be part of the building process within the kingdom and aid the beloved Son of GOD; by doing His will and keeping all the commandments, we will see it happen.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Same feeling here! In hearing the term, 'a layered being', can be quite disturbing for anyone but the purpose of such, as you stated, a physical shell to cover the last being, spirit soul. The point is? Perhaps, the titled given to Savior, would provide some additional meaning - I AM - that would bring closer to not only our ancient past but draw closer to our FATHER.

Putting this into an analogous statement, if I was an assigned construction journey man, my years of learning from a mentor of the trade, would be under the guiding hand of a Master Construction Builder. Years of learning from a master of the trade would aid me to gain the appropriate knowledge and experience to construct the same type of buildings put up in the past. I now reach a state of knowledge and experiences; I can now venture forth from the tender master’s hand into a new land and applied my trade of learning. What do I construct? What I have learned by the master. The only variations that you will see, is the outward design but the interior structure materials remain the same from past master hands. Over period of time, our construction work now expands into each other land, for a time, the master and I will collectively worked together for the same end goal – in constructing the same building and with the best construction help them inhabitant the buildings. Time will come, my expansion only helps my master to now move back to his mentor or master, take over his land, as the same in moving on to be with his master. Collectively, we are working together under the one body, in unison, as one voice, the master builder.

To what end is there to this remains to be seen. More-or -less, so does the title word called sacred title called "CHRIST"; does resemble of deep importunacy of our known universe and where we are at in the mix of life.

It only provides a future roadmap for us to seek no end to be part of the building process within the kingdom and aid the beloved Son of GOD; by doing His will and keeping all the commandments, we will see it happen.

With that in mind, even the murderer and the liar will be involved in the 'building' as they too will receive a body. All will bow to Christ literally and eternally, this is our end.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Good stuff Seminarysnoozer. Here are some more thoughts to go along with the dicussion.

From D&C 88:

14 Now, verily I say unto you, that through the redemption which is made for you is brought to pass the resurrection from the dead.

15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.

16 And the resurrection from the dead is the redemption of the soul. (D&C 88:14-16)

And then from D&C 93:

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy. (D&C 93:33-34)

Man is spirit. That is what we are at our core. Our immortal spirit, or mind, is the intelligence. Soul can and has been used to describe our spirit. In fact, D&C 132 teaches that those who are exalted, will "bear the souls of men" (D&C 132:63).

But the true man, in the likeness of the Man of Holiness, is spirit and element inseparably joined. That is the soul of a Man at the height of his true potential. After the resurrection, you cannot separate the physical body from the spirit, so together it is the soul of man.

Regards,

Vanhin

If this is what you truly believe (rhetorically spoken), what specifically brings the spirit to "his true potential" by combining it with the body?

Yes, its a rule, an eternal law, our destiny, something that has been done forever, the image of God etc., all the titles that make it more noble than we are allowed to understand in our current existence. But even with all those titles and adjectives it provides no further understanding as to the specific need for a body. This is why a discussion as to the differences between 'soul' and 'spirit' would outline the added traits of the body to the spirit that make it become a soul.

Is it like putting on scuba equipment, now we can interact with a realm the spirit alone could not? If one believes that then one would also have to believe that Satan has no influence whatsoever on physical realms, as Satan has no body. And if we believed that then our very own spirit could not interact with our physical body. So the spirit by definition has to be already able to interact on a physical level. After all, spirit matter is finer than physical matter. So, all this effort is to be 'housed' in a form of lesser quality material than what we already had? I don't think so, but I can't explain why.

Also, in regard to D&C 132, those that are not exalted, those that are in the Telestial and Terrestial kingdom will also 'bear the souls of men.'

[Hemidakota]

With that in mind, even the murderer and the liar will be involved in the 'building' as they too will receive a body. All will bow to Christ literally and eternally, this is our end.

What is our ancient past then?

[mikbone]

what specifically brings the spirit to "his true potential" by combining it with the body?

I don't know. And I don't think that an answer can be found in the limited doctrine that we currently have.

But I have made a guess as to why it may be important. It's based upon what I think is a neat analogy.

If Jehovah is a carpenter, then Elohim is an architect.

An architect creates spiritually

A carpenter creates physically

The spiritual design is very organized and highly accurate.

On the other hand working with physical matter is messy. It seems that physical matter adds a function of chaos or randomness into the equation.

Overcoming this chaos and randomness is refining and makes greatness.

[Hemidakota]

Nice....

[Seminarysnoozer]

I don't know. And I don't think that an answer can be found in the limited doctrine that we currently have.

But I have made a guess as to why it may be important. It's based upon what I think is a neat analogy.

If Jehovah is a carpenter, then Elohim is an architect.

An architect creates spiritually

A carpenter creates physically

The spiritual design is very organized and highly accurate.

On the other hand working with physical matter is messy. It seems that physical matter adds a function of chaos or randomness into the equation.

Overcoming this chaos and randomness is refining and makes greatness.

That makes perfect sense to me for this existence. I like that analogy to describe also the struggle between spirit and body, it creates the opposition. But I thought we are to 'rest' from that opposition when we enter His kingdom and yet we will still have a body. So, to me it is a great reason to have a body here, it meets the requirements of this existence, a probationary state, a state of testing but then that view makes it even harder to understand its significance in the next life.

[Seminarysnoozer]

What is our ancient past then?

Sorry, not sure what you mean.

[mikbone]

But I thought we are to 'rest' from that opposition when we enter His kingdom and yet we will still have a body.

I think that 'rest' is entirely overated.

[TheAngelPalmoni]

Spirit Soul = Intelligence and Spirit, Soul = Body + Spirit(+Intelligence)

Web.me.com/angelpalmoni

[Hemidakota]

We are both in agreement....

[Hemidakota]

Sorry, not sure what you mean.

Prior to our spirit soul [spirt soul = intelligence + spirit body to house it] or creation

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think that 'rest' is entirely overated.

You think the "messy" aspects of the body and the physical will continue then? I thought we were to get a perfect body and "rest" from that messiness. I would assume too the randomness would be at least less of an issue if not an issue at all. "Rest" of course does not mean we will be sitting around but a rest from the struggles of this world and the battle with evil influences. The body (physical) will have been overcome by then.

So, if that is the purpose of the body to provide that aspect and it is overcome then it no longer provides that aspect. You think it will continue to be "messy" then?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Prior to our spirit soul [spirt soul = intelligence + spirit body to house it] or creation

Your question is 'what was our ancient past?' and clarified you are speaking of prior to our spirit being created .... I don't think in that form you would call it "our past." My feeling is that there was just 'intelligence' material around that would become our future selves. I realize I could be wrong and that other people see it different but I don't think that prior to becoming "spirits" we were individuals. There was a mass of intelligence that God formed into individuals, is how I see it now but am entirely open for further understanding as to that process.

I can't comprehend an eternal existence in the past and only now coming to a certain level of development. If we existed forever as individuals, why did it take so long to get to this point? Wouldn't we be well beyond this level and already God's by now if we had existed forever before? So, I can't wrap my little brain around that concept, it is easier for me to comprehend the possibility that we did not exist as individuals but the material for our existence, intelligence, has always been around. Also, if all intelligent beings are in existence now, then there would be a limit to the number of intelligences possible and any of my future intelligence "offspring" would be sitting around right now in a suspended state until I, if fortunate enough, can have the privilege of making eternal increase without end. That does not seem possible or right to me. Even then, I am open to that possibility, and have thought about it, I just have a hard time comprehending that.

[HiJolly]

Originally Posted by Seminarysnoozer

what specifically brings the spirit to "his true potential" by combining it with the body?

------

I don't know. And I don't think that an answer can be found in the limited doctrine that we currently have.

I agree.

But I have made a guess as to why it may be important. It's based upon what I think is a neat analogy.

If Jehovah is a carpenter, then Elohim is an architect.

An architect creates spiritually

A carpenter creates physically

Good analogy, but what about when God says: "Let there be light"?

My belief is that this cannot be done without having been mortal. It is a marvelous example of One who knows everything, doing something in *faith*.

The spiritual design is very organized and highly accurate.

On the other hand working with physical matter is messy. It seems that physical matter adds a function of chaos or randomness into the equation.

Overcoming this chaos and randomness is refining and makes greatness.

Yup. It's what made God worthy of worship, according to the ancients.

HiJolly

[mikbone]

You think the "messy" aspects of the body and the physical will continue then? I thought we were to get a perfect body and "rest" from that messiness. I would assume too the randomness would be at least less of an issue if not an issue at all. "Rest" of course does not mean we will be sitting around but a rest from the struggles of this world and the battle with evil influences. The body (physical) will have been overcome by then.

So, if that is the purpose of the body to provide that aspect and it is overcome then it no longer provides that aspect. You think it will continue to be "messy" then?

lol, good questions.

I don't know. I suspect that God is God because he choses to be God. He still has the ability to sin or err but he does not because he has been previously conditioned against so doing and he knows better.

I think that God is not messy because he has learned ultimate control of his surroundings.

I anticipate that when we recieve our resurrected celestialized bodies that there will be quite the break-in learning process.