Does Elohim have nail prints in his hands?

[mikbone]

Jesus Christ's Celestial perfected body obviously has or at least had the markings of the crucifixion (3 Ne 11: 14)

We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple and first principles of the gospel, to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another, and that God himself; the Father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I had the trump of a arch angel, I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever; what did Jesus say? (mark it elder Rigdon; ) Jesus said, as the Father hat power in himself, even so hath the Son power; to do what? why what the Father did, that answer is obvious; in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again.---- If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible; the scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, all the combined powers of earth and hell together, to refute it. Here then is eternal life, to know the only wise and true God. April 7, 1844 - "The King Follett Discourse", Joseph Smith Jr. as recorded in the Times and Seasons Minutes

The argument here made by the Prophet is very much strengthened by the following passage: "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he [the Father] doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (St. John 5:19) - Note by Elder B. H. Roberts, Teachings p.346

Edited June 3, 2010 by mikbone

[HiJolly]

I love that talk. Think about this: Does God have the ability to lay down His body, and take it up again? :)

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

Jesus Christ's Celestial perfected body obviously has or at least had the markings of the crucifixion (3 Ne 11: 14)

We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple and first principles of the gospel, to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another, and that God himself; the Father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I had the trump of a arch angel, I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever; what did Jesus say? (mark it elder Rigdon; ) Jesus said, as the Father hat power in himself, even so hath the Son power; to do what? why what the Father did, that answer is obvious; in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again.---- If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible; the scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, all the combined powers of earth and hell together, to refute it. Here then is eternal life, to know the only wise and true God. April 7, 1844 - "The King Follett Discourse", Joseph Smith Jr. as recorded in the Times and Seasons Minutes

The argument here made by the Prophet is very much strengthened by the following passage: "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he [the Father] doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (St. John 5:19) - Note by Elder B. H. Roberts, Teachings p.346

I would not be the first one to ask to see HIS hand.

[Just_A_Guy]

As to whether or not Elohim was crucified or otherwise atoned for the sins of His race on some other world: no opinion.

Speaking more generally, though--isn't the general expectation, though, that at least over time all scars heal from our resurrected bodies? I'd always understood that Jesus was the exception to that general rule, and that was in order to prove to His viewers that He had done what He said He did.

Postulating that the Father did die and resurrect in the same manner as His Son: my considered opinion (!) is that He (and the Son) has the prints if He wants/needs them.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Just_A_Guy

[Wingnut]

Speaking more generally, though--isn't the general expectation, though, that at least over time all scars heal from our resurrected bodies? I'd always understood that Jesus was the exception to that general rule, and that was in order to prove to His viewers that He had done what He said He did.

I've always been given to understand that Jesus chose to keep His scars, for the reason that you mentioned.

[Hemidakota]

I've always been given to understand that Jesus chose to keep His scars, for the reason that you mentioned.

Would He want to retain it for a eternal reference, when He will still minister to those of the Terrestrial state?

[Hemidakota]

I love that talk. Think about this: Does God have the ability to lay down His body, and take it up again? :)

HiJolly

Having curiosity of this talk couple years ago, when I began searching other sermons during the last three years of Joseph's life, he had some dramatic teaching moments.Too bad, none of them ever landed in the D&C.

[Onhech]

KFS wasn't even widely talked about till later in the church. It took a while for the saints to grasp and accept it.

My question is, because we have never >>experienced<< what Christ or presumably God has, so how can we ever be in the situation of God, who has a Son who can say "I do nothing but what i see the father do". If I never experience that will my son be able to say that? I could learn everything through revelation, but I will never know it through experience. Thoughts?

[mikbone]

My question is, because we have never >>experienced<< what Christ or presumably God has, so how can we ever be in the situation of God, who has a Son who can say "I do nothing but what i see the father do". If I never experience that will my son be able to say that? I could learn everything through revelation, but I will never know it through experience. Thoughts?

Yeah...

I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory, so that Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before; it is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said. When you climb a ladder, you must begin at the bottom and go on until you learn the last principle; it will be a great while before you have learned the last. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it is a great thing to learn salvation beyond the grave. I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of any thing that is not contained in the Bible, and I think there are so many wise men here, who would put me to death for treason; so I shall turn commentator to-day. April 7, 1844 - "King Follett Discourse", Joseph Smith Jr. as recorded in Times and Seasons Minutes

Just between you and me, I think we are pretty close to the bottom rung of the ladder. And I think that the ladder is a tall one...

Edited June 5, 2010 by mikbone

[Blackmarch]

Jesus Christ's Celestial perfected body obviously has or at least had the markings of the crucifixion (3 Ne 11: 14)

We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple and first principles of the gospel, to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another, and that God himself; the Father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I had the trump of a arch angel, I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever; what did Jesus say? (mark it elder Rigdon; ) Jesus said, as the Father hat power in himself, even so hath the Son power; to do what? why what the Father did, that answer is obvious; in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again.---- If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible; the scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom, all the combined powers of earth and hell together, to refute it. Here then is eternal life, to know the only wise and true God. April 7, 1844 - "The King Follett Discourse", Joseph Smith Jr. as recorded in the Times and Seasons Minutes

The argument here made by the Prophet is very much strengthened by the following passage: "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do; for what things soever he [the Father] doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (St. John 5:19) - Note by Elder B. H. Roberts, Teachings p.346

The resurrected Christ let his apostles feel the wounds in his hands and in his side.

As for God the father no idea, nor does it matter to me, nor would I think that God the father does unless, histories, universes, and what not that involve whatever that matters to God and any othergods that might be, exactly repeat themselves- which is a stab in the dark.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Blackmarch

[baver3]

Maybe he has some kind of scar but most likely not nail marks. There are lots of ways to kill someone.

And he doesnt NEED those scars anymore so if he wanted them gone, he could make them gone and we cant guess whats going on in HF's head.

Go look at that pic of Joseph Smith in the grove (where he sees HF and JC) and see if you see marks in HF's hands.

[Hemidakota]

Or did the Savior open His hands to Joseph Smith after the introduction by His Father, for Joseph to witness the marks?

[Wingnut]

Go look at that pic of Joseph Smith in the grove (where he sees HF and JC) and see if you see marks in HF's hands.

I'm not sure why that enters into the discussion at all. It's not a photograph. It's an artist's interpretation.

[mrmarklin]

How could we possibly know?

When the Christ talks about doing what His Father has done, one must understand this in context. It's unlikely He was around during the mortal life of Elohim. He must be referring to His premortal existence.

[mikbone]

When the Christ talks about doing what His Father has done, one must understand this in context. It's unlikely He was around during the mortal life of Elohim.

Why not?

I believe that it is highly likely that Jehovah was 'around' during the mortal ministry of Elohim.

[Hemidakota]

Not in human form....

[Hemidakota]

How could we possibly know?

When the Christ talks about doing what His Father has done, one must understand this in context. It's unlikely He was around during the mortal life of Elohim. He must be referring to His premortal existence.

Or, did He learn it from the FATHER?

[Suzie]

The scripture is key here because it doesn't say only that Christ does what His Father has done but he does what he sees His father doing.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (John 5:19)

[mikbone]

Not in human form....

If we take the stance that Elohim provided Jehovah with an example of how to Atone, then:

1) Elohim was himself previously a Savior.

2) Most likely Elohim's experience was very similar to Jehovah's experience.

3) There are likely a large number of Souls that can trace their salvation directly to the atonement provided by Elohim for their salvation.

4) Jehovah during this time was at least organized as a spirit

5) You and me were not yet organized as a Spirit Child of Elohim. Most likely we were in the state that has been previously defined as an 'Intelligence'

[Hemidakota]

Are stating, Jehovah was created when Elohim was in mortality, acting in the role as Savior?

[mikbone]

Are stating, Jehovah was created when Elohim was in mortality, acting in the role as Savior?

Nope, hang with me here...

Im saying that Jehovah's spirit was not sired by Elohim.

I believe that many LDS have significantly misunderstood the scriptures dealing with the Firstborn status of Jehovah. Also, that as a group we have greatly underestimated the difference between the status of Jehovah from ourselves.

D&C 93:21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn.

There are 2 ways that someone can be spiritually born:

1) Elohim (Heavenly Father and Mother) created spiritual children.

2) Mosiah 5:7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters. D&C 93:22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn.

So although I am a spirit child of Elohim. I have made a covenant with Christ and have been spiritually reborn as his son. I hope that I will be able to become a member of the Church of the Firstborn.

So what is greater? Being spiritual sired by Elohim or being spiritually reborn as a son of Elohim and becoming a member of the Chruch of the Firstborn???

I believe that Jehovah is the Firstborn because he was spiritually reborn as a son of Elohim. Jehovah's relationship to Elohim is ontologically different than the relationship that we have with Elohim. Jehovah's spirit VASTLY predates our spirits.

Edited June 10, 2010 by mikbone

[TheAngelPalmoni]

God the Father was the Christ of the last Plan of Salvation and saved those in times past. The Saviour is our current Christ. The Holy Ghost which is now and intelligence will be the Christ of the next Plan of Salvation. This is why they can ALL BE CALLED CHRIST. This is why we are baptized by the FATHER SON AND THE HOLY GHOST.

The Holy Ghost

The Holy Ghost

The Holy Ghost

[mikbone]

The Holy Ghost which is now and intelligence will be the Christ of the next Plan of Salvation.

I percieve that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit (1 Nephi 11:11, D&C 130:22). He is much greater than an unproven intelligence.

I agree that the Holy Ghost will have the opportunity to serve in the office of messiah if he so desires.

Sermon delivered at Nauvoo temple grounds on Sunday August 27, 1843 Franklin D. Richards "Scriptural Items"

Holy Ghost in Probationary State

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.

Joseph Smith, June 16 1844, as recorded in the George Laub Journal

But the holy ghost is yet a Spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body. as the Savior did or as god did or the gods before them took bodies for the Saviour Says the work that my father did do i also & those are the works he took himself a body & then laid down his life that he might take it up again.

But who is to say that only one plan of salvation can exist at a time.

I believe that an infinite number of plan of salvations are concurrently evolving.

I recently purchased an 8 inch newtonian reflector telescope. Boy howdy! There is alot of stuff goin on out there.

Edited June 10, 2010 by mikbone

[Hemidakota]

Ugh...if anyone who is or will be assigned to this earth, will not be a partaker of another plan outisde of what this world was designed to be. This plan was designed for those who are destined to this world. Not likely the Holy Ghost will reside on another world as a Savior but will come forth when there is no need for His work; meaning, the Savior will be here.

Am I reading your post correctly?

Looking at the reference provided in the link: 4. The statement evidently refers to the fact that the Holy Ghost has yet to receive a mortal body. The word "probationary" referring to all who have not received the resurrection. See end of Burgess record. Also 16Jun1844

Another provided link states this: Holy Ghost Yet a Spiritual Body

But the holy ghost is yet a Spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body. as the Savior did or as god did or the gods before them took bodies for the Saviour Says the work that my father did do i also & those are the works he took himself a body & then laid down his life that he might take it up again &

[Hemidakota]

God the Father was the Christ of the last Plan of Salvation and saved those in times past. The Saviour is our current Christ. The Holy Ghost which is now and intelligence will be the Christ of the next Plan of Salvation. This is why they can ALL BE CALLED CHRIST. This is why we are baptized by the FATHER SON AND THE HOLY GHOST.

The Holy Ghost

The Holy Ghost

The Holy Ghost

Good morning Angel, how do you figure the Holy Ghost will become a Savior on another world? Was it personal revelation, was it personal research, or is there any statement provided by Joseph Smith?